PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Gareth davies, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. D DJ

    D DJ

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    I'm getting to the point where I'm just about done with this game. I'm not having fun, I'm getting angry at things that shouldn't happen and ... I'm tempted to put my controller down and wait for GT7.

    The SR system is broken - contact should not always results in a drop for BOTH parties (bump drafting is a perfect example) and it would not be hard to put in place a rule that if you are on a straight and you turn into someone, it's obviously your fault and they should not be penalised for it by an SR drop too. This is online, things can lag and reactions won't be as brilliant for all players so some contact is inevitable but not all of it is malicious. At the moment, the only way to build up your SR back up in any meaningful way is to start at the back, go slow and just finish the race without racing - this is not how it should be!

    Penalties don't make sense either - cut a corner just slightly going onto a straight thereby gaining a huge speed advantage = 0.5s. Smashing your car head first into a barrier and coming to a dead stop = 5.0s. Many times when you get one it's like insult to injury because you've already hurt your race by going wide and then it says "here's some penalty on top mate". If you have the system in place, use it more effectively (ie. use the pit-lane as a penalty too!). I always said with the previous time-system that you could run down whenever you wanted that if you finished the race with penalty it should be doubled to discourage people holding onto it till the end or crossing the line with it.If you punt someone off and the games wants to penalise you for it, make the offender have a drive-through penalty. It means that for ****ing up someone else's race, yours is too. The time penalty that they receive is nothing compared to the time lost by the injured party, EVER.

    My two cents - the current system is worse than before- go back to an older version and tweak that. There are things in the current system that DO work but so many that DON'T. Oh, and who's idea was it to put penalty zones in the MIDDLE of straights? - we get it, it forces people to serve them and they get properly punished ...why not at the start of the straight instead? Think about it PD!
     
  2. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    Following the logic of my suggestion would eliminate bump draughting anyway.
     
  3. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    It's going to be lonely in SR.S :lol: I'm up for it.

    Of course it will be gamed. Since you can't earn DR anyway until you're SR.S, why race at all until you get there. One lap behind everyone, pit and clean race bonus. Or farm race A while driving behind. Plus it's way too easy to stop a rival from earning points by hitting them. Don't underestimate pettiness of online players.

    What I'm all for is no SR level increase until you have done x consecutive clean races while finishing the race before time out. CRB should not be awarded if you don't cross the finish line and any off track excursion should negate it.


    Short cuts should be penalized more heavily, contact penalties should always be higher than hitting a wall on your own. The 5 sec wall hit penalty isn't that bad (stay on the road in control is your first goal), people only getting 1 sec for sending another car into a sand trap is way worse.

    5 sec for any off-track excursion, spin, heavy slide, wall touch, shortcut, too wide, doesn't matter. Be consistent, stay on track, stay in control.
    10 for any contact that could have been avoided. Not braking for a car in trouble ahead, you pay the price as well. If you brake for trouble and the car behind doesn't, they get 10 sec penalty. Pay attention. The car causing the trouble by losing control gets 5 sec for messing up, plus 10 sec when getting hit after messing up. Stay in control, practice off line to find the limits.

    The current system also needs to be triggered when the car that was hit doesn't go off-road but meets any of the bad driving criteria like getting into a spin or heavy slide after getting hit. That will fix barge passes and award the car doing the bad pass with 10 sec. The car that was hit gets 5 sec for losing control. Harsh but try to avoid contact at all costs, and it's necessary or it will be gamed to block cars from passing.

    Add all the penalties at the end of the race, force a drive though the pit if over 15 sec, the slow auto-drive through the pit is perfect for that. Out of the way, merge carefully or get another penalty. If you ignore the drive through, add 10 sec.

    It's going to be a mess of penalties at first, but heavy measures are needed at this point. Last night racing in max SR, pertty much full A/S rooms with a lot of A+/S presence I was expecting much better than only one race where I did not get hit in T1 or punted during the race. So much dangerous driving, using the grass, messing up, causing trouble.

    Matchmaking could also do better by matching on experience. One driver gave me two unfair penalties last night and he admitted he didn't know the course very well. One he spun out a car by braking too late, sending that car into me and I ended up with 5 sec penalty. Then at the end when I caught back up after serving that penalty and climbing back up, he started braking way too soon at the end of the straight. Even my safe distance and super early braking point for trouble ahead had no chance against that. At least require gold in the track experience before being allowed to enter a sport mode race on that track. Of course I would not have been behind him had I not been punted from 5th to 18th in T1.... Yet he would not have been in that race at all if matchmaking had the sense to match people with similar speed.
     
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  4. nascarfan1400

    nascarfan1400

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    Suppose I'll drop this here. Sorry i cant turn on the super grip to make the turn after getting slammed. FIA gonna FIA i guess. :lol:

     
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  5. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    If someone wants to get to SR S by going slower then no problem. they will never get past DR E. SR S. In the meantime they haven’t messed anyone else’s race up.
    I would suggest making completion of the circuit experience challenge for the relevant circuit an entry requirement along with having done a qualifying lap for each daily race.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  6. Tillbeast

    Tillbeast

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    It's hell at DR B (About 13k points) SR S
    . I have no problem getting nudged from behind as at 13k points none of us are great and will occasionally brake too late or early. I may not be an S/S rated player but I know when a manouver is possible or when an opponent has made a manouver so not to wrongly close the door. Too many at my level don't care and just barge past me or ridiculously bomb me, yes I know let them and they will overshoot but at some point you have to make your turn. Or they will get it wrong and fly off but not before they make contact with you giving you a penalty. No penalty system will fix idiots as they not bothered. Only way is to give instant disqualification for any incident that pushes a player off either intentional or accidental. It will make clean players better and stop perpetual bad players as they will not finish a lap rather than a race. Also perpetual dirty players should get bans from online races from 1 day to 1 week.
     
  7. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    The occasional bump will always happen.
    What makes it intolerable for me is the kind of thing I encountered with a guy called mike-le-mauve in race c last weekend.
    He was 15seconds a lap quicker in qualifying than the next fastest and over a minute faster that the slowest in the room.
    His entire strategy was to bump people out of the way and essentially out pace his penalties.
    At one point he rear ended me about eight or nine times in the twisty section at the start of the ring. At no point was he alongside, just trying to run me off the road and out of his way in the knowledge that he could make up any time penalty over the remainder of the lap.
    Very quick but couldn’t race.
     
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  8. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    That's how I feel. I am usually also BS. It's really hell on this level. One would think that the races would be clean at SR S. But that's not the case. Just a year ago, the driver level at DR B was pretty good. We were not the fastest but everyone knew the track and the braking points. Unfortunately that is not the case anymore.

    I notice that more and more. The over-motivated players I criticized in my last post seem to know the racetracks not well. That's just crazy. They start an online race without much practice and without knowing the route well. Nevertheless they want to win. The lack of skills and race track knowledge should then be compensated by increased aggressiveness and risk-taking. This does not work and only destroys the races of the clean drivers.
    Yes, I describe the things here are now somewhat simplified and clichéd. But such a behavior is typical of pure gamer. These players are not interested in the topic of the games. They do not want to know everything so well and incorporate it into the topic. They want fast success without much effort. Actually, the FF or EE level would be optimal for such players. But due to all the mistakes in the system, these drivers keep on climbing and then encounter drivers with completely different motivation. How do you want to fight clean wheel to wheel with someone who slows down sometimes too to early and sometimes too late? I do not know now which level you have right now but such drivers should never drive together with experienced drivers in a race.
     
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  9. Cardiffian

    Cardiffian

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    I'm now racing at DR.B and SR.S and I can assure you that (with a few exceptions) other racers seem to want to race fairly. The A race this week is a hoot and the track/car combination seems to create a lot of passing.

    My one complaint is that some drivers seem to think that every point on any track is a passing place. Some drivers fail to slow down, even when they must know that a pass is impossible.
     
  10. Kwame

    Kwame

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    What you say is true. However, the problem many of us are complaining about is related to your second point. Many drivers are not situatonally aware. Whether on purpose or simply not skilled, they bump, run you off your line and generally case problems. Then the bloody penalty system punishes their victims. If we learn by the incentives given, what lesson do you suppose the players take from their encounters with others in daily races? They will learn nothing of racecraft, they will feel the races are a hoot. So maybe once or twice the gat penalty? No big deal. It was fun. Come up behind another car, tap them, pass, gain positions etc. No patience, no racecraft, no incentive to learn it.
    This penalty system is crap! But MILES better than the mayhem in Forza so I will continue to deal with it and complain once in a while.
     
  11. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    I always find it funny to be matched with players that hardly know the track as in GTS alone I've completed over a 1600 laps on the Nordschleife in sport mode, and did plenty mileage on that track in GT Leage, custom events and VR. In GT5 it was practically the only track I raced online for months. Then I get to race people that don't really know what corner is coming up next :lol:

    I also blame the AI for teaching poor racecraft. I'm currently doing some tests again on the N24 against pro AI. The AI is a joke and invites all the bad behavior you see online. Out braking and barging through the inside is the default way to overtake against the AI. They always brake super early, leave the door wide open and move out of the way when you threaten their inside. No wonder people believe they can out brake everyone. The AI is also firmly planted on the road, bumping into them hardly upsets them so it's easy to use them as brakes and guide rails in corners. When everything off-line rewards and expects you to drive dirty (it's all last to first challenges basically), how can you expect new players to behave online...
     
  12. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    Exactly! Pure and simple CRAP! Just like Gts monthly updates ... Just more Crap to make people not even think about or see the real CRAP that is playing this game online!

    Instead of doing something about this...
     
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  13. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    That's what I've experienced this week as well. I did race B yesterday, qualifying at 7th place, just enough to avoid the carnage in the back of the pack. I was curious as to what happened as there were 2 disconnects and tons of penalties for every one below 8th place. So I kept the replay and then scanned through the race looking for collision events.

    It seems that there were 2 players that were consistently trying to push their why by through the esses by dive bombing. The rest of the room appeared to take it upon themselves to constantly pit these two kooks off of the track at every opportunity they had. The two jerk drivers would then flip out and try to revenge ram people, typically missing and running wide off of the track. Eventually they were either DQ'd or disconnected.

    Car wise I'm liking the Lancer. It appears to be the only car that will act in a similar way to the 1.38 physics in that it won't freak out if I try to apply throttle early on the exit. It's also trail braking a lot more consistently than some of the other cars I've tried. It's also nice that I have tacky 90's KW livery slapped onto it.
     
  14. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    Will be interesting to see what they try next.
    I find it hard to imagine that they will leave things in the current mess.
    The evidence of how bad a system they have is the fact they still use human stewards for the live events. Think of how bad the publicity would be if they relied solely on the method PD have imposed on everyone else.
     
  15. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    A rotten apple spoils the fruit in the whole basket. Nice that the other drivers have disciplined the chaotic in your race. But something like that happens too rarely. Yes, the majority is actually trying to stay clean. But a few overly motivated chaotics often destroy the races. This week is not so bad, which is probably due to the combination of tracks and cars. But most of the time the the usual divebomb in T1 with the resulting chaos takes care that mood tilts. The mood heats up and some drivers try to regain their positions. Then usually starts already the hewing and stinging. I admit it myself. If I lose positions without guilt or get an unfair punishment then I get angry too. This affects my driving behavior, even if I do not want that at all. It would be different if the system was to establish justice directly afterwards. 'OK a divebomb and I lost 2 places but for that the causer got 5 seconds.' Then I would be reasonably satisfied. But right now, unfortunately, it's the opposite. Often the victim is then punished. Just have a look at this video. It is not mine but shows very well how broken the penalty system is.
     
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  16. STIGGY_34

    STIGGY_34

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    Whoa!! I thought I was imagining things and maybe was getting a bit worked up but damn!!
     
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  17. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    More of that Dirty Sweet Taste of Playing GTS Online!!

     
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  18. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Both videos show how basically the penalty system is broken. Yes, we will never get a perfect system. But at least the basic functions should already work. At least in the clear cases, it should give meaningful results. But not even that is the case. Even in totally clear situations, there are many false penalties or even no punishments. In addition, it is easy to outsmart and abuse. This does not even require special skills or tools. The basic algorithms are so primitive that you can easily show and explain them in just a few minutes. Some here complain the system is not consistent. So it only appears for the victims. As you can see in the first video it is quite consistent for those who want to abuse it. It's amazing how easy and reliable the drivers in the video could cause false penalties.
     
  19. Mirror_man

    Mirror_man

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    Disgutfull I must say yes!

    Dorofin and al you guys reading this thread.. I beg you to give a look at this thread i´ve just created: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...enalization-system-suggestions-please.388358/ and ... leave your sugestions and critics.. tooo!! :) Please!!!
     
  20. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    And therein lies the issue, I believe. The Matchmaking. Why is it based on SR? It should be done via DR.

    Carry on.
     
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  21. BallPtPenTheif

    BallPtPenTheif

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    For the Penalty system. I think they should simply go back to the equal fault system but make it less sensitive so minor, non repeating momentary contact is fine. There's no reason why cars should be hitting each other repeatedly in rapid succession or even rubbing each other for a prolonged period of time.

    The only real problems with the old equal fault system was the break checking that resulted in unfair penalties. If they simply would have resolved brake checking under that penalty system I believe they would have had a better system then what we have now. Penalizing any braking in a non braking zone (that results in a collision) should be ideal. Sure, there will be an occasional false penalty given when someone slams the brakes on a straight to avoid hitting an out of control car but how many players actually slow down at the opportunity to pass a competitor?
     
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  22. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    It's done on both, there's just not enough people playing for it work at SR.S. DR means little anyway, you can be A+ while never having driven the weekly track before.

    It makes more sense to match people with similar sportmanship together for better races, that is if SR was a lot more reliable :ouch:


    The minor contacts can be as annoying as major punts. The constant little bumps in corners or nudges to get you off line should not be allowed. With lag they are often far from harmless, plus pushing a car wide onto the kerbs to pass or one wheel off track so they can't brake is very dirty.

    But indeed how hard can it be to penalize actual brake checks. The AI can avoid cars, the game knows when the road is clear and when there is a reason to brake. It was a dumb knee jerk reaction to simply say, the one that gains the speed advantage or stays on the road is always at fault.
     
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  23. STIGGY_34

    STIGGY_34

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    Just had someone lose it in front of me at interlagos come spinning on to the track.
    I'm on the anchors and hit him. Get a 4 second penalty?
    Forget trying to get a clean race bonus it's insane. That you have to wait 30-45 seconds then go pfft
     
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  24. STIGGY_34

    STIGGY_34

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    Wowwee


    Edited so I don't triple post.
    Whoever said that the game does not reward different line is 150% spot on.
    Take a later apex at turn one or two at tsukuba. Forget it pal
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
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  25. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    Eh, if it's a grid of 7 SR S drivers, does it really matter if the rest of the room is filled up with D rated players? Those 7 S rated players are just racing each other anyway.

    I say let the S race the S, the B's race the B's, etc.
     
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  26. GTP_TO Blue

    GTP_TO Blue Premium

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    Had the same happen to me yesterday at Bico de Pato. Car in front goes to the left side grass, loses it, I move to the middle of the track to get away from them. They spear back onto the track and barely hit my left rear side. They continue off to the right side of the track and plant themselves in the tyre wall. I get the penalty. Clean Race Bonus gone for something I didn't cause!
     
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  27. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    It won't be filled up with D rated drivers if you match on DR first.

    Either you get a full room of DR.A with SR.S to SR.C (below that you get reset)
    Or as it is now a full room of SR.S with DR.A+ to DR.D

    If you match on DR first you get to race people that don't care about driving clean. Now you indeed get 7 A/S players racing each other with the lower DR's SR.S racing each other behind.

    Or did you have something else in mind?
     
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  28. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    DR should be dependant on SR.
    If you cannot achieve SR S at your current DR then your DR should not increase.
    Matchmaking could then be done primarily on DR with the closest possible SR among that level.
    Pole could be set on a 5 lap average, maybe 2 on the the ring.
    Circuit experience mission completion should be a requirement of entry.
    End result; always race people at a similar level who have proved capable of driving fairly, quickly enough and who know which direction to go round the track.
    Not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.
     
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  29. O604

    O604

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    For the Daily races I think what might improve the quality of racing is adding a qualifying race. Only once for each race each week.
    1. set qualifying time, same as now
    2. enter qualifying race, same as a race now but with limited points/risk
    3. if results from Q race is fast enough and clean enough proceed to full points race
    4. if results are below that standard repeat Q race again
    Adds an extra step to qualifying which may be a pain but in theory this could filter out some drivers still unfamiliar with a track or are driving too aggressively.
     
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  30. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I’d like to see them go to shared fault for incidents, like it was initially. Problem then was people complained about poor drivers missing braking point, punting guy ahead and causing guy ahead sr down.
    I’d be fine with that if they would give a five second to the guy behind.
    I think shared fault is really the best option given that there’s problems detecting fault in general.

    I think perhaps the PS4 is simply incapable of doing what needs to be done and they prioritized other aspects of its processing power?

    I have yet to see anyone anywhere propose a single algorithm that would be better. For all the complaints, no one has a solution.
    Therefore go to shared fault. That’s what they came up with at first and tbh I can never forgive the legions of you tubers making videos and people complaining because PD caved to its original conception and imo that conception was better than what we have now.
    It’s not rocket science, if there’s shared blame using contact to get ahead wouldn’t make sense. The only thing it would not prevent is kamikaze.
    The only other thing they could do is like @Svenjurgens said implement somehow an sr over time deal.
    People say implement damage, but I could easily game that. Baby punt under braking maybe scratching my front will cause the guy ahead to smash into a wall and have to pit.
    Imo it’s possible they are limited by the hardware.
    If that’s the case, go to shared fault.
    Shared
    Shared shared
    Fault
     
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