PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Gareth davies, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Unfortunately, that's the way it is. In your case, it would be easy to determine the true guilty if the existing data would only be evaluated correctly. The Sauber has certainly slowed much too late and was much too fast at this point of the route. That alone would suffice to recognize him as guilty. But such values are unfortunately not evaluated by the system. Probably because it lacks comparisons. If GTS had a good AI in singleplayer mode then these values could have been used for the penalty system as well. Then you could compare the values of the cars in the online race with those of the AI driver. Then, when accident occours and a driver decelerated more than e.g. 15% later than the AI brakes or is e.g. 15% faster than this is possible for the AI on this part of the track then this driver is to blame. With such and other algorithms PD could greatly improve the system. But that will not happen. Time would have been enough but so far we have seen no progress in this respect.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2019
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  2. BaareCZ

    BaareCZ

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    Exactly. This is a proof that there is no evaluation algorithm in place whatsoever. None. The penalty system did not consider him going way too fast in a slow section and (what's more important) being completely out of control. He was :censored: sideways!!! What it saw was him going quickly and me going slowly, turning into him, spinning him out and sending him into the sand trap. Basically it saw me blocking him. And that is just so extremely simplistic that it just leaves me speechless. It's official people, PD really have given up on it and this is what we get. Is it better than nothing? Yes. But that's about it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  3. breeminator

    breeminator

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    They haven't given up on it, Kaz acknowledged fairly recently it needs improving. But some people are clamouring for more tracks to have wet conditions, some people are clamouring for more tracks, some people are clamouring for more cars, everyone has different ideas of priorities, and we are, after all, talking about a game that is 2 years old. It's also unknown just how much spare CPU capacity the base PS4 has to perform a more sophisticated evaluation.

    People suggest simple shared fault as a solution that doesn't need significant CPU power, but that would be simple to exploit. If you have a >5 second gap to the car behind, and want to pass the car in front, just ram them off the track. You both get a 5 sec penalty, but now they're 10 seconds behind you and you're still ahead of the car that was behind you.

    If we get an improved system for the current game, that will be great, but I suspect it might have to wait till the PS5.
     
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  4. soundtiger95

    soundtiger95

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    I took a break of a few months from Sport Mode due to just not enjoying it because of the penalties. Tired out race C today at la Sarthe just for fun. I lost control in the esses and went off into the barrier, and got a five second penalty for hitting the barrier. Why in the world is that even a penalty? Isn’t wrecking enough of a penalty on its own? I just had to exit the race after that because it was clear that nothing has changed in my absence from Sport Mode. Guess I won’t be coming back to it after all.
     
  5. sundaydriving

    sundaydriving

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    Oooookkkk.

     
  6. Dmac72

    Dmac72

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    This is why I have moved to a shared blame with a places penalty rather than time. A 1 place penalty for every incident.
     
  7. breeminator

    breeminator

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    Two "gifts" of a penalty in two corners by the same driver:



    These are the SR graphs of the top 6 (DRs around 30k). No prizes for guessing which one is mine. I'd suggest it needs to take longer term history into account, but it seems the game might struggle to fill a 20 driver lobby if it did that.

    gtsport_fia_man_21092019_srgraphs.jpg
     
  8. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Sven and I have been writing this for a long time. If someone looks at the profile history of the drivers he can immediately recognize with the naked eye what type of driver the other is. If this is so easy then it would not be so hard to write an algorithm that recognizes that too. PD has access to all the data and probably to much more. They would only have to evaluate the data adequately. Instead, we have a primitive system that makes it easy to outsmart.
     
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  9. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    What you see on KP is a simple snapshot from what everyone's SR is at at 00:00 or midnight GMT. It doesn't tell the whole story but is already effective in recognizing the most aggressive drivers. PD has much more info. When @jasguer's site was up you could get the history of your SR change per race, including changes over 99 and under 1. For example:
    [​IMG]
    So if @jasguer could track all that, PD certainly can.

    Also DR changes per race were tracked
    [​IMG]
    Lovely DR reset there at BMB lol. That peak to 55K (DR.S at the time) isn't on my KP profile since it happened Saturday night after the 8PM snapshot and was gone Sunday night before the snapshot lol.

    So any earnings per race / track are easily tracked. Keeping track of how well you do per track would improve matchmaking. DR per track will work much better than one over all DR, as well as SR per track. And it's really your SR changes over time (perhaps also per track) that the game should use for matching than the one current score. Shore up you SR in a race C to dish it out in a race A or B is what creates those up down profiles.


    The idea of shared fault, ie penalize both drivers equally has lost traction with me after last week's experience. I dropped to SR.B on the Nord and stayed there for most of the week. The problem was getting bumped by other drivers and getting SR Down for it. With shared fault that wouldn't be any better to stop getting penalized for people simply tapping your bumper all the time. It made gaining SR very slow, one tap meant max +3, two taps, +1, 3 taps lose SR, one wrong penalty -5 SR. Driving from the back I would meet a lot of cars during each race, only one needed to misbehave to pull my SR back down again. If I had qualified I would have simply gone pole to flag or follow the leader in the top. Where you start or drive in the pack should not be what determines SR.

    If you go for shared fault there needs to be some mitigating metric with the number of interactions you have. The easiest way to gain SR is, either be fast, start on pole and never look back. Hence the dirty fast drivers who could care less about losing SR, easy victory awaits. Or drive behind the pack to farm SR. Which is probably why SR.S lobbies are so often fast vs slow drivers with little in between. The 'average' speed majority has the most interactions per race and thus the most chance to lose SR.

    Close proximity racing and position changes (where both stay on the road) should be a part of how you gain SR, not just SR for staying on track. SR up for a clean position swap (either up or down) where both drivers stay on the road. Double SR up for a clean sector while driving close to another car. That should balance out the inherent risk of accidental contact while actually racing. Then average the SR rating over time and you get a good measure of safety rating or actual race craft.
     
  10. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Absolutely right. It is shameful that PD does not evaluate such meaningful data. These data are particularly meaningful and could allow a much better classification of the players. With such data, one could almost create a psychological profile of the respective player. You can tell exactly which players are clean and avoid contacts or which are dirty or prone to overmotivated errors. Basically, that would be a great basis for meaningful matchmaking. But unfortunately this is not used. The players then also realized that any unclean maneuver affects their classification. For many, this could also improve behavior. It would then be clear to anyone that one behaves with a behavior such as Momoz can never achieve a good grading. So they would take that into account in their behavior.
     
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  11. VulcanSpirit

    VulcanSpirit

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    Mentioned this in the main FIA Exhibition Season thread, but one of the Ferraris in my last Manufacturers race got a three-second penalty after getting bumped by a Mazda on the first lap. Turns out that the Mazda attempted to outbrake a Mercedes going into the first corner, but hit the Ferrari while trying to cover the apex and drove wide onto the run-off area. I presume the system sensed that the Ferrari gained from the Mazda losing time on corner exit, but I don't know for sure.

    Proof that if you're very, very unlucky, errors from other drivers may put you on the naughty step! :boggled:
     
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  12. hairless_ape

    hairless_ape

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    If you're very, very unlucky?

    No, for that to be the case it would have to be a rare occurrence. When in fact it happens to at least one driver in damn near every race. And if there's a particularly dirty slob in the lobby it may wind up happening to multiple people.
     
  13. VulcanSpirit

    VulcanSpirit

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    It's a rare occurrence for me, thankfully, and is especially unfortunate for those who try to keep well out of harm's way. But yes, my own individual experiences don't necessarily reflect on how frequently other drivers end up in this situation on a race-by-race basis.
     
  14. 05XR8

    05XR8

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  15. Petroperu

    Petroperu

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    What a joke
     
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  16. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    This is a beautiful example of the state of the penalty system. The question of fault is absolutely clear. Nevertheless, the system penalizes the victim. It is unbelievable what the system does NOT consider. The Audi was too fast, shortened the curve, drove through the grass and hit a driver whose speed, line and driving behavior were absolutely correct. But all these facts do not count. The primitive and faulty algorithm punishes the innocent BMW.
    I felt very similar yesterday. I overtook a car quite clean. I was inside, he outside, and we both gave another space. Suddenly there is a hit from the inside. The driver behind us has made a divebomb even further inside, driving in the grass. He hits me, I start to slip and hit the driver on the outside. This driver has to leave the track and lose a lot of time. Of course I got 5 seconds penalty for that. The divebomber gets 2 places as a reward for his great maneuver. There are no penalties for him. This is GTS as we all know it.
     
  17. O604

    O604

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    I guess there are no plans to fix the penalty system and this is the way it is. I've been doing minimal racing over the last few months in the hopes there would be improvements. But I think I've run out of hope.

    Over the past few months, it almost feels like the only races I've enjoyed were those with people I recognize (mostly from this forum). I estimate my odds are about 1 in 4 getting knocked out at some point during a race, getting penalized for it then finish the race from 10 seconds back all to preserve my Sportsmanship.

    To be clear it's not entirely the fault of the penalty system, it's drivers which the penalty system doesn't do anything about that makes the experience just not worth the time for me.
     
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  18. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Of course, much of the anger is triggered by the behavior of people. But that was predictable. Since there are games, there are also people who want to win at all costs, or to gain unfair advantages. When playing online that is often very bad. Talk to players from Battlefield, CoD or WoW. It's unbelievable what's going on there. All the trouble in GTS was also predictable. The only thing that really helps is a reasonably reliable penalty system. But that's exactly what the developers did not do. Everything we've seen in the last 2 years has been too rudimentary, flawed or too easy to fool. I have the impression that the developers have thought their whole concept too little. They probably could not even imagine what could happen and what tricks the players could develop to gain advantages. I hope they analyze all the experiences in GTS and develop something much better for GT7. But I think that is unlikely. If the developers would develop better algorithms then they could already test them in GTS. At least part of it. But that does not happen.
     
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  19. Mc_Yavel

    Mc_Yavel

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    The thing I love the most is getting a penality and you don't know why because it all happended behing your car. I have to save the replay and watch what was going on. It turns out the guy behind me barely touch the back of my car and bounce off track. 4 sec penality and I'm barely involved.
     
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  20. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Penalties are so lovely. Here's 3 from a race that went rather crappy

    First, 2 out of control Ford's. I get a 4 sec penalty for getting too close to troublemakers even though I'm hugging the wall trying to stay out of the way.
    Then coming out of T2, a slight push on my rear right bumper causing my car to lose traction, 5 sec wall penalty.
    Last caught in the slipstream of a slow BMW, car loses grip while trying to get around him, spins, didn't hit anyone, lots of time lost, and still slapped with 5 sec penalty.

    It's so inconsistent. I see people bouncing of the walls creating a mess in traffic all the time without any penalties. Yet when you really crash or run into a wall to avoid a car spinning out, have a penalty!

    I'll add these here as well for the collection:

    Pointless, unavoidable yellow flag penalty


    Screwed by a wall bouncer


    And what @Mc_Yavel was talking about
     
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  21. golfer07840

    golfer07840

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    I have never seen a yellow flag penalty before.
     
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  22. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    Another example which happens quite often in T1.

    Get punted in T1, end up with a 5 sec wall penalty and sometimes SR Down as well.
    In this case, the other car that did break on time and got clipped by the back end of the late braker got the 2 second penalty. How???
     
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  23. MOPARbarrett5

    MOPARbarrett5 Premium

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    Honestly I don't see how anyone can put up with "racing" in Sport Mode anymore. It has been clearly established for a long time that no matter what PD attempts to do, the penalty system makes the racing much more rage inducing than fun.

    Edit- Even in qualifying PD implements the exact opposite of what should happen
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  24. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Once again a good example of how primitive the penalty algortihmen are in GTS. The system does not recognize that you are overtaking a car under yellow that has been slowed down by the game. In every real race series, significantly slower cars under yellow may be overtaken. Not so in GTS. It would be easy to change the code so artificially slowed cars trigger no penalty. But this code does not exist. This shows us that the whole concept was not thought out at all. Even elementary things that would also be easy to implement were not realized.
     
  25. KaiB

    KaiB

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    Actually i think it´s a thing present in any online game..., people are umpredictable and i must say this world it´s full of garbage so expect to find stupid behavor once in a while, in a lobby last night while praticing for nations i was having one epic battle for podium with a french guy he was S/S rank and very clean and agressive driver, all ok in front but after some laps while we overlap slow drivers one of them just ruined the leaders race first was the french and after was i he just intentionaly bump us in turns, seems people are frsutated and are plain stupid and theres no system other them report, penalty system can be worked out but will not filter people behavor.

    Theres one good aspect concerning GT, yes penalty system sucks but in the opposite i actually find Fia Races very fun and people seems to behave more properly in this format..., top rank guys also seems to be clean drivers.

    I think its just a thing of personal aproach, people just have to do their own "job" drive clean try to improve, PD could do a system in race like a fast vote to kick someone of the race, somthing like this if theres 10 drivers..., if 4 drivers vote to kick a guy he will be kicked, it could not be a lot of drivers voting or very few, cause some people probably aren´t aware of what´s happening trough the field.

    This or a vote system that first warn the driver in question and if keep behaving badly after the second vote he will be kicked.

    A fast shortcut could be assign to avoid to brake concentration of all drivers, really dunno but i think there is no alghoritm that can deal with RL stupidity XD
     
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  26. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    Right, in online games you can see a lot of garbage. Precisely for this reason, the designers of such games always have to assume the worst scum. Design the game so that this scum does not spoil the game of the clean players. If that's the case, then you already have a solid base. On this basis, one can then refine the game experience in small steps. Unfortunately, GTS does not have this solid basis. With small adjustments you do not eliminate the basic mistakes. That should have happened before the release of the game. That's why all the changes of the past 2 years did not really improve anything.
     
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  27. SestoScudo

    SestoScudo

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    When I smash into a wall why am I penalised with a 5 second penalty???

    Pretty stupid if you ask me. You dont get a penalty but a instant race over hence why its better to have real time damage.

    I would rather suffer the consequences of crashing into a wall rather than some nonexistant wall collsion penalty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  28. Dorofint

    Dorofint

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    I also thought real damage would be the solution. But then some drivers showed me how well this can be abused. Dirty drivers can send you in a big crash with a light touch in the right places. The result is a terminal damage to you and nearly zero damage to them. To prevent that, you need a good penalty system. But that's exactly what we do not have in GTS. Thus, real damage as a substitute for a good penalty is unfortunately not a good idea.
     
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  29. SestoScudo

    SestoScudo

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    Gt sports penalty system seems to be hit and misses to be honest. Its really going to take time to even get it right.
     
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  30. Sven Jurgens

    Sven Jurgens Premium

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    You get a penalty because you endanger other people on the track. If wall bounces were never punished people would be wall riding and pinging off walls instead of racing properly. Real damage doesn't work because it will be abused. The dirty tire effect and resulting tire wear already puts you at a big disadvantage after you get punted into the gravel.

    The only time races got cleaner was when the penalty system was super strict and any contact was a guaranteed penalty. However that was abused as well with brake checks and stalling in corners to give the car behind 10 sec penalty while receiving only 1 second. Plus any incidental lag contact due to driving too close also resulted in 10 sec penalties which didn't sit well with the fast drivers who want to race bumper to bumper, door to door.

    Unfortunately instead of refining the strict system PD went a different route to always punish the car that comes better off after contact. Which still gets abused as it doesn't look further than contact, who goes off / hits a wall. Thus when you bounce off a wall and hit the car behind you, that car ends up with a collision penalty when he manages to save himself while you ping back into the (other) wall.
     
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