Penalty Zones Coming to GT Sport's FIA and Daily Races

5,863
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
geez i'm so close to insta delete the game because of this ****ing non sense penalty system / we dont even know what gets you a 3 , 4 or 5 sec penalty

Oh that's simple. Any contact with a car that goes off road or comes from off road (within 2 or 3 seconds of contact) gives you a time penalty. It doesn't matter how the two cars make contact. The time amount depends on the force of contact. No time if the contact is soft enough, so you can still drive people off road without getting a penalty.

Lag can make contacts seem worse or less severe. Inconsistent track limits also screw with the system. (track limits for short cut penalties are different from track limits for contact penalties) Some contacts are forgiven since the last update as clients now properly inform each other of penalty decisions. That means that if the contact didn't happen on the other client you are forgiven. That also means that a laggy car can punt you off without him getting a penalty.
 
687
United States
USA GMT-7
DudeTuna
I feel like the penalty zone should be minimized to half of the track width and off of the racing line. I can already imagine having to dodge brake checking penalty servers.

From the article:
While your car will ghost for the duration of your slow down, Polyphony Digital advises that you should also get off the racing line. The official release states that if another car strikes you from behind as a result of unghosting from serving the penalty, the game will deem the incidents to be your fault…
 
39,193
Australia
The Bronx
People really new anreview of the videos. Don't do anything that makes us look bad.


Did Race B last night. This is how fair I race. It helps when others know how to use good race craft. No blocking, no weaving, picking aaline and givin racing room
 
899
United States
Phoenix Az.
HuddyBob
Did Race B last night. This is how fair I race. It helps when others know how to use good race craft. No blocking, no weaving, picking aaline and givin racing room

God Bless you.
If the rest of the planet raced like you, I'd still be playing.
 
121
England
England
Seems to me that if someone brakes way too early or comes off line into your way, the game should be able tell the difference between that and blatant ramming from behind or intentional t-boning.

But it can't.

It can only make simplistic decisions based on limited information...which is not a good system.

That, if the future is online and not with offline single player focused content, must be the top priority.

A fully realised and sophisticated A.I
controlled race director is the next step for all racing games with an online component.

It should become the norm and unexceptional.
 
899
United States
Phoenix Az.
HuddyBob
At least with the current system you can gain an unfair penalty, push to the end, and decide to have it added to your finish time, allowing you to some what mitigate its impact.
On the opposite hand... Gain an advantage via a jack-o-lantren act, then manage it into an advantage by race end.
I se both sides, and, I prefer the jack-o-lanterns pay the price.
But this new system will give you no choice in how you deal with it ...
Perfect... dissuade the propensity to incur the penalty in the first place.[/QUOTE]
I just feel that the penalty system as it is adds an element of (somewhat limited?) strategy when you decide how and when to serve it...
There-in lies the problem... it's ok to incur the penalty as long as there is a strategy to deal with it.
The true answer is, don't incur the penalty in the first place.

I get what you are saying with regard to "unfair" penalties... and, 100% agreement.
Something needs done to interpret "silly" behavior...
Guessing that is Pandora's box.

Seems to me that if someone brakes way too early or comes off line into your way, the game should be able tell the difference between that and blatant ramming from behind or intentional t-boning.

But it can't.
Again, 100% agreement... there's gotta be a way.
 
1,986
Brazil
Brazil
Seems to me that if someone brakes way too early or comes off line into your way, the game should be able tell the difference between that and blatant ramming from behind or intentional t-boning.

But it can't.

It can only make simplistic decisions based on limited information...which is not a good system.

That, if the future is online and not with offline single player focused content, must be the top priority.

A fully realised and sophisticated A.I
controlled race director is the next step for all racing games with an online component.

It should become the norm and unexceptional.

Developing A.I is really hard man,like way too hard.Something PC Hardcore Simracers benefit from is the enviroment it offers to the community,people who go into IRacing want the ultimate racing experience so people already come with the objective of racing fairly,putting those rules on consoles is like poking at a hornet's nest.You atract every lots of casual gamers who may feel lost with all the race rules and you also attract the bad drivers who think they are playing Mario Kart.I'm surprised GTS works as well as it does without being a complete disaster.

Again, 100% agreement... there's gotta be a way.

I said earlier in this thread that brake checking already happens with the current penalty system so drivers know not to stay behind a car with a penalty on the final straight of the last lap.What the penalty zones should do is let enough space so people get out of the way if the car in front wants to troll them(what i mean is no penalty zone starting right after the exit of a corner,let the cars be in a straight so there is time to react)
 
121
England
England
Developing A.I is really hard man,like way too hard.Something PC Hardcore Simracers benefit from is the enviroment it offers to the community,people who go into IRacing want the ultimate racing experience so people already come with the objective of racing fairly,putting those rules on consoles is like poking at a hornet's nest.You atract every lots of casual gamers who may feel lost with all the race rules and you also attract the bad drivers who think they are playing Mario Kart.I'm surprised GTS works as well as it does without being a complete disaster.



I said earlier in this thread that brake checking already happens with the current penalty system so drivers know not to stay behind a car with a penalty on the final straight of the last lap.What the penalty zones should do is let enough space so people get out of the way if the car in front wants to troll them(what i mean is no penalty zone starting right after the exit of a corner,let the cars be in a straight so there is time to react)

Yeah, I get your point that serious racers will race seriously, and casuals won't .

I agree totally with you on that.

Those players will police themselves making that kind of A.I race director less important.

But I think the "casual" market really just means everyone that hasn't invested in a full rig, and doesn't play one of the more sophisticated p.c sims...which is still an awful lot of people.

People who want to race clean, and fair, and have a penalty system that works.

I don't consider myself a SIM racer, and I suppose I am a casual in the way we mean.

I play once or twice a day, if I can, for an hour or so, and I'm happy.

But I still don't want ridiculous penalties ruining my experience, I don't want idiots ramming me off and getting away with it, and I don't want someone to lose out or be punished as well because I make a mistake and the game can't differentiate who was the culprit and who was the victim so it penalises both of us or neither of us.

As I mentioned earlier, if it's done right and can be sufficiently robust, we need never know it's there.

I'm not advocating for some megalomaniac overseer who can take your car off track, freeze your throttle, blacklist you etc...and ruin the experience.

Like any A.I it is quietly beavering away in the background, unnoticed, yet always watching and able to monitor and then rule on driving incidents within seconds, and doing so with a human like sense of balance and use of nuance.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
People really new anreview of the videos. Don't do anything that makes us look bad.


Did Race B last night. This is how fair I race. It helps when others know how to use good race craft. No blocking, no weaving, picking aaline and givin racing room



Really nice post. It’s up to each of us to do our best and take pride in sportsmanship.
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Oh that's simple. Any contact with a car that goes off road or comes from off road (within 2 or 3 seconds of contact) gives you a time penalty. It doesn't matter how the two cars make contact. The time amount depends on the force of contact. No time if the contact is soft enough, so you can still drive people off road without getting a penalty.

Lag can make contacts seem worse or less severe. Inconsistent track limits also screw with the system. (track limits for short cut penalties are different from track limits for contact penalties) Some contacts are forgiven since the last update as clients now properly inform each other of penalty decisions. That means that if the contact didn't happen on the other client you are forgiven. That also means that a laggy car can punt you off without him getting a penalty.

Great post Sven. People are getting excited about increased punishments for penalties, with the upcoming new zones, yet there is no indication that the new penalty serving zones will arrive alongside a new penalty decision making programme. As you eloquently described, it is far too easy to get a penalty for nothing still, with the current penalty decision system, yet it will soon be punished the same as an intentional ram.
 

mullercj

(Banned)
13
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Why even let players shave off their penalties? You don't see Max Verstappen slowing down on track to get rid of 5 seconds in F1, it's just added to the final time.

Having cars slow down will always introduce danger to other drivers and force the need for otherwise pointless systems like this that we now have to be aware of.
I agree the best way is either add to race time or sit in the pits.
 

rono_thomas

Adrenaline Racing Community.
Premium
2,134
Wales
Wales
ARC_rono_thomas
I agree the best way is either add to race time or sit in the pits.
Both options would destroy Sport Modes already falling population - leading to even more wonky matchmaking.

If casuals realise the penalty is there till the end, it will be a case of quit theres no point in wasting this minutes. With the option of a reducing penalty, it gives the impression, false impression, that I can always improve - in essence it keeps the competition alive.
 
149
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
mattnufc7
So you mess up a qualy lap and get a penalty and it costs you two laps, seems a bit stupid. Plus the penalty zone for Dragon Trail starts right on the exit of a corner, can see that causing a few issues. I don't know what was wrong with the current system tbh. The penalties are too inconsistent, they give out penalties wrongly too often so I feel we should have some leway with how we deal with them.



Yeah I hit a car and he spun, not a lot I could've done though, at least I was able to manage the problem myself.
 
27
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I think I am going to like the new system. It's really infuriating when I am rammed off on Turn 1 and the car ramming me disappears into the distance with a red penalty sign - I know they are going to wait until they are reaching the finishing line before they slow down. After being hit, there may be 5 or 6 cars between them and me, so I will never get that place back from what is usually a cheat (rather than an honest error).

Surely the new system will mean that diving in on T1 will no longer reap the benefits it currently does as any places gained would soon have to be paid for.

Of course, the reality may be worse than the current arrangement, but kudos to PD for trying!
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
In short, it is too soon for penalty zones.

The game lost a lot of players, the last time PD made penalties harsher, without fixing the decision making programme 1st.

With lag being an accepted part of the game, I cannot see how any penalty decision programme can be implemented 100% fairly with 0% innocent drivers wrongly punished, unless it detects lag and therefore does not apply any penalty in those circumstances.

The current penalty decision system is easily gamed, just read Sven’s accurate posts about it. It must be updated, before more draconian punishments are implemented, to avoid another exodus of players.
 
623
United States
United States
This is just going to add more danger for other drivers, and won't really change anything as far as penalties go. I still believe we should just serve them in the pits. That would necessitate races being slightly longer, but I'd be okay with that as I think most Sport races are too short.
 
4,779
England
Nelson, England
GTP_ASH32
This is just going to add more danger for other drivers, and won't really change anything as far as penalties go. I still believe we should just serve them in the pits. That would necessitate races being slightly longer, but I'd be okay with that as I think most Sport races are too short.

It will at the front of the race, especially in the first few laps, no more pushing first out of the way into T1 because with the penalty zone slowing you down you'd be in like 10th then, maybe lower, depends on how many other people have been naughty. :lol:

The races do need to be longer though, regardless of how the penalty system works or doesn't work and that's a long standing problem. 3 or 4 lap races, as some are, are just asking for people to barge their way through.
 
899
United States
Phoenix Az.
HuddyBob
video (not mine) identifying penalty serving is not forced... aka penalty can be carried on, but, if you choose to serve... can only be served in the designated zone.
 
786
United States
United States
IMHO, none of this matters. IRL penalties are served in pits, by subtraction at the end, and by forcing the offender into returning position. And it's this last one that, firstly, made GT5/6 into the best online clean community on consoles, and b) was a basic rule in pretty much all league racing. It's a shame that PD didn't spend more time in WRS and SNAIL and figure out what is was that created that degree of race etiquette.

Remove ANY advantage for contact, and you would be utterly amazed how clean the vast majority of the player base can be. Force a car off and pass, return position. Ram from behind and pass, return the position. But rub, ram, whatever and DON'T gain position, no penalty.

Works like a charm!
 
1,834
United States
United States
IMHO, none of this matters. IRL penalties are served in pits, by subtraction at the end, and by forcing the offender into returning position. And it's this last one that, firstly, made GT5/6 into the best online clean community on consoles, and b) was a basic rule in pretty much all league racing. It's a shame that PD didn't spend more time in WRS and SNAIL and figure out what is was that created that degree of race etiquette.

Remove ANY advantage for contact, and you would be utterly amazed how clean the vast majority of the player base can be. Force a car off and pass, return position. Ram from behind and pass, return the position. But rub, ram, whatever and DON'T gain position, no penalty.

Works like a charm!

Major differences is in leagues and lobbies first off the behavior of the racers is reviewed by an "official" who is a live human who interprets whether the rules have been violated.

Second in leagues and lobbies if a racer does not conform to the rules established by the league or lobby then that player is "kicked" and no longer allowed to race in that league or lobby.

Pd does not have those luxuries of human reviews for all sport racing incidents and PD also cannot just kick players because they do not drive to the satisfaction of the other racers.

Pd needs to implement an automated penalty system that while is better than nothing will never equal human intervention for incidents. Trying to find the happy medium has been showing to have problems in the automated system.

Also again the "penalty zone" is a compromise as most races are way to short to use pit road for enforcement but the enforcement does need to cause hardship and some loss to the driver accruing the penalty. I think it is a step in the right direction but we will have to see how it works.

Again the reason for the DR and SR rankings is supposed to separate racers of different skill levels, knowledge of the rules and race etiquette. Again these systems so far have not been used to effectively accomplish and implement that separation.

Everything I have heard for an automated console racing game GTS is still better as far as clean racing is concerned when compared to the other main titles. Hopefully they will continue to work to improve the systems used as this is all relatively new and this last year has been a learning curve for PD I am sure.

But a game for the masses is never going to be as easy to police as a single league or lobby racing system where live humans oversee the race action or conflicts within a race and it is not fair to compare the two actually.
 
1,090
United Kingdom
Norwich
TheNorfolkDad
Seems to me that if someone brakes way too early or comes off line into your way, the game should be able tell the difference between that and blatant ramming from behind or intentional t-boning.

But it can't.

It can only make simplistic decisions based on limited information...which is not a good system.

That, if the future is online and not with offline single player focused content, must be the top priority.

A fully realised and sophisticated A.I
controlled race director is the next step for all racing games with an online component.

It should become the norm and unexceptional.

It can decide though, I found this both at Le Mans last week and now at Suzuka in Gr2. The most recent example of this happening was someone hitting the brakes hard through the esses right in front of me so I went into the back of him. No one came off track, not a lot of time lost and no positions changed. No orange arrow for me, couldn’t believe it!
 
729
Brazil
Brazil
What they need i think is a reporting and review system like iracing has.

This game does have a report system, you can report players right after racing them on Sport Mode, at the "end race menu", just scroll through the players list until you find the guy who was cheating or ramming and then select it so it will bring up a option to report it.

I have yet to see what happens if a player keeps getting reports though.
 
1,479
Portugal
Seixal
zefthebestofcour
Just to be sure... This is not yet implemented on online daily/weekly races after 1.29 update.. is n´t it??
 

T_revisio

(Banned)
129
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Remember when the contact penalties were "one for me and one for you" ? With, for example, a 4 sec penalty for the alleged guilty party but also a 1 second to the alleged victim, just for good measure (or something) !? If that returns, the victim would not only suffer the time loss from the incident but also be forced to have to slow at the start of a straight in the designated zone to burn off the 1 sec "victim bonus" penalty. That is not going to be a happy place, is it?
 
1,834
United States
United States
Remember when the contact penalties were "one for me and one for you" ? With, for example, a 4 sec penalty for the alleged guilty party but also a 1 second to the alleged victim, just for good measure (or something) !? If that returns, the victim would not only suffer the time loss from the incident but also be forced to have to slow at the start of a straight in the designated zone to burn off the 1 sec "victim bonus" penalty. That is not going to be a happy place, is it?

The whole point is for the long term the only way any penalty or infraction punishment system will work is that system needs to change the mindset to avoid getting penalized at all cost.

Yes in your scenario the victim will also be punished at first but if the new system reaches its intended goals and changes the mindset of those that are commonly ramming into the rear of a car because such action and the resulting penalty to be served at the current time rather than at a time that affects the aggressor the least actually cost them 3 positions and put the trailing pack right on their rear then in the future the incidents should be of a less frequent nature.

Hopefully the new system will change some peoples behavior as it will be a more punishing system than the current system and we can still continue to hope that the ranking systems will be utilized to the fullest to gain their intended effects ans further separate the "rammer" from the "cleaner" drivers.