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Sounds like vacuum cleaners? You mean, just like real cars do?
Check this video at 1:22 and compare it to the vacuum cleaner below:
You Sir, are a genious. You're absolutely right.
Sounds like vacuum cleaners? You mean, just like real cars do?
Check this video at 1:22 and compare it to the vacuum cleaner below:
The advantages are future proofing for future tech that will deliver on the promise of greater colour range, greater artistic flexibility with regard to the compression schemes used (they are not limited to a narrow render gamut and can change how much they use as and when) and no more ugly dithering. 👍
That's exactly what HDR rendering already does, and is what PD have been doing since GT5P (the dithering is in-game). The game will still need to work on normal TVs etc. so that function has to exist anyway.Agreed, it just seems to me that they could have restricted the output to more realistic/practical values. Taking the theoretical maximum out of the HDR10 format in both colour and luminance range could end up being counter productive as any value outside of a given display capabilities will inevitably be somehow remaped with the effective risk of a new breed of visual artifacts.
The difference is that the new displays still have a higher dynamic range than standard, so there will still be a benefit. PD are positioning themselves to be able to offer a benefit once true 10-bit (or even 12-bit) displays emerge in the mainstream as well (Sony, see).
Sounds like you have some insight into the subject. It would be great to have a guide on the subject. Do you have any links you can point us to?HDR is pretty wonky when choosing between HDR TVs, as some TVs handle HDR better than others even though they might carry the HDR10 certification. Some TVs can even do HDR but do not carry the certification, like what Sony does. IMO to get the best out of HDR you need a TV that checks all the boxes for HDR10 delivery, and a lot of TVs don't actually check every box.
Sounds like you have some insight into the subject. It would be great to have a guide on the subject. Do you have any links you can point us to?
So, will there be more than 5 courses ? That's all we've seen so far .
Sure and, as usual, I have less interest in the hardware in practice as compared with the underlying systems and theory, if you like. So forgive me the gaps in my knowledge on that front!I'm not questioning the benefits of HDR over SDR, that's a given. However, a full 2020 gamut 10K nits output just outperforms every single SUHD display available out there. Currently BT.2020 coverage is barely reached by laser based prototypes. Higher luminance ranges also poses industrial concerns too (Power drain/cooling/...). When unveiled Sony was touting 4000 nits for their Backlight Master Drive tech currently implemented in their ZD9 top of the line range. The commercially available displays effectively maxes out at around 2000 nits peak brightness and can't even track P3 gamut correctly. With PD reportedly releasing unclamped/full throttle HDR10, every bit of code outside of that effective range (no matter the bit depth used) will ineluctably be remaped in one way or another.
I really doubt they have bean working on it for three years.
Sure and, as usual, I have less interest in the hardware in practice as compared with the underlying systems and theory, if you like. So forgive me the gaps in my knowledge on that front!
But I really don't think that PD offering more gamut in-engine is any worse for "HDR" displays than it has been for "SDR" displays so far. If anything it will be better because I'm pretty sure that most game engines don't render as wide as even the slackest of nominally HDR hardware implementations, so developers will have some work to do to make full use of them.
Except PD, who are set to 2020 and beyond...
I also expect that PD will have served as useful first-party guinea pigs for other first-party devs.
Pragmatism is always welcomed, but I wonder what cost the extra colour gamut actually entails in respect of the game itself.Sorry if it sounds overly pragmatic. I can enjoy things on a conceptual level too. In this particular case I’m skeptical; pushing a tech demo to the point it’s not even demo-able sure raises some concerns. I’m genuinely interested in HDR and the workflow used by PD for the matter. I can envision how some tools may have allowed more accurate capturing and computing/rendering of spectral data, but with the end product being ultimately about visuals it leaves me wondering how final grading decisions where/could be taken. With no practical tool at hand you’d either refer to abstract models or guesstimates.
As for other developers, if nvidia white papers on HDR are anything to go by (selling that many GPU’s should make there voice at least be heard I imagine), then sure more conservative takes on HDR may become more popular as they seemingly suggest to stick to sRGB/REC.709 primaries and to extend the luminance range to about a one thousand nits peak. Potentially more in line with current generation of SUHD televisions capabilities and probably easier to trim pass for the majority of existing HD displays out there.
From the Ars Technica interview it seems that Kaz was primarily targeting photo mode with the 10 000 nit range
I highly doubt that nVidia still thinks 1000 nits is enough now (and bear in mind the nVidia white papers are often "guest-authored" - it's just a platform).
Probably delayed for 3 years.
That's quite different to what GT's site indicates.
Interesting, thanks.
https://developer.nvidia.com/displaying-hdr-nuts-and-boltsHowever, the frame buffer is now in full floating point. The ability to encode negative numbers allows us to encode colors outside the gamut of sRGB. In fact, it allows the representation of all of BT 2020 and much more.
https://developer.nvidia.com/implementing-hdr-rise-tomb-raiderMake sure your rendering pipeline supports [Physically Based Rendering] and floating point surface formats right until the end of the frame.
The first concern is obviously whether your game is rendering with HDR internally today. Since most PC games are, we’ll consider this a pretty safe bet.
When I’m talking about having really good dynamic range, I’m talking about having some highlights that have values approaching or exceeding 184.0 in the frame buffer after adjusting for exposure. This value is 10 stops above the photographic middle gray of 0.18. The good news is that with tech like physically-based rendering getting data like this isn’t really a problem. The real world produces scenes like this, and rendering algorithms that attempt to mimic the real world do as well.
https://developer.nvidia.com/rendering-game-hdr-displayApplying the same tone mapper to screens with a maximum luminance of 200 nits and 1000 nits does not result in a pleasing image on both. It is the same as just turning up the brightness. You really want colors and luminance levels represented well today to remain the same.
https://developer.nvidia.com/hdr-ue4The core addition to UE4 to support HDR displays is a pipeline to get the high-precision data to the framebuffer. First, this means changing the allocation of the swap chain to being [full floating point].
Based on that, I think it's safe to say that 1000 nits is not the target for renderers, but for the tone-mapped output. The extra headroom in the renderer means it should be relatively easy to expand that output for better displays as and when they become available.
I don't think you understand exactly what PD are "determined to output". That seems to be the core issue here.Well I was convince output values and display capabilities was specificaly what we were talking about!
As for PD being determined to output these extreme (unpractical) values:
In-engine, yes.What does that red line supposedly represent then? In game engine rendering capabilities? Why compare it to the range of luminance currently used for grading HDR (bluray) movies? Doesn't the real world offer more than a 1000 nits of luminance to play with? Or is it because movies aren't CGI intensive? And if those values aren't refering to HDR10 Code Levels (thus output at the HDMI connector of the console) why even bother to compare them to an actual 8 bit REC709 signal?
…which is probably why it's limited to 10 000 nits / BT.2020...
So there we are, PD have been able to achieve the maximum that the standard asks for. And why not.10,000 nits BT.2020 is the actual limit of the HDR10 format the UHD alliance have agreed upon earlier this year.
BT2020 currently works as a container for various (more limited) other colour spaces and is indeed an ultimate target for the format future. The 10000 nits ceiling comes from the Perceptual Quantizer (PQ curve/EOTF) originally developed by Dolby Laboratories, standardised as SMPTE ST-2084 and ultimately retained for HDR10.
It will be useless to the majority of people ... since there arent many people with HDR TV's. Myself included.
I have one, but don't have a PS4 Pro, just a standard one, so it's even less people.
Polyphony and Kaz need to **** off now tbh, beyond a joke that they target useless little things instead of attacking the huge core deficiencies in the games.
I find no inconvenience at all and only ever play GT6 in 3D. Passive glasses dont need charged and have wider viewing angle than active, and they're lighter so i hardly notice them on. Also no flickering from them which is something I'm sensitive to and feel ill under certain lighting.
HDR is available on the standard PS4.I have one, but don't have a PS4 Pro, just a standard one, so it's even less people.
Polyphony and Kaz need to **** off now tbh, beyond a joke that they target useless little things instead of attacking the huge core deficiencies in the games.
You are acting like 100% of PD's development went purely into HDR and no other assets whatsoever, which clearly isn't the case here.
...I know you meant it in jest, but hey, I'm fairly sure not all 200 of PDI staff worked on HDR exclusively for the last three years.
I mean, you can't ask the AI guys to work on graphics now, can you? That'd be like.... like asking a pro wrestler to, I don't know, ice skate in the Olympics or something. They could do it, but they'd suck at it.
The advantages are future proofing for future tech that will deliver on the promise of greater colour range, greater artistic flexibility with regard to the compression schemes used (they are not limited to a narrow render gamut and can change how much they use as and when) and no more ugly dithering. 👍