Project CARS 3 Developer Blog Explains New Tire Physics, Confirms Pit Stops Are History

MagpieRacer
I'm not allowed to have an opinion on an open discussion forum? Don't question my intellectual credentials based on what I want to look at and talk about. 'Sim' is a broad term, what everyone believes is or isn't a sim will differ based on a huge number of variables. Is this game going to drive like a sim, will it simulate realistic driving dynamics? Well yes, i believe everything is certainly pointing that way, just read dev blog 2 to see what kind of detail is in the engine. Is it accurately simulating motorsport? Depends on the motorsport, but its certainly simulating some aspects.

I will have, and continue to voice my own opinion based on my own view of the game and what I see in it. I really don't care how many people agree with me, i really don't care if you agree with me, I'm well beyond the point where I care about trying to talk to people about sim credentials because "99%" of this forum have already made their mind up. And that's absolutely fine. Im still going to buy it, if the game fails to deliver on its documented promises then I'll be disapponted, if it delivers, others will be missing out.
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Aww, You are adorable, Sport! Keep banging the drum!

There’s nothing like doubling down when the facts are against you.

I don’t criticize anybody who is going to buy the game or anybody who isn’t going to buy the game. I don’t judge people‘s opinion. I’m so pleased for you that you have one. I believe everybody should and they should voice it.

A persons opinion, yours or mine, does not alter fact. There is a younger generation who believes that their opinion can alter fact but it just can’t. They assume incorrectly.

Even many here who will still buy the game and play it and enjoy it would not dare to call it a Sim since they know that real race car drivers do not believe it is a Sim of their sport without pitstops and without fuel depletion and with magic tires that transform from dry to wet or from worn out to brand new while driving.

I deal in facts.

Really, I have no idea why you’re fighting with me. You need to be fighting with race car drivers who say this game is not sim.
 
slthree
Aww, You are adorable, Sport! Keep banging the drum!

There’s nothing like doubling down when the facts are against you.

I don’t criticize anybody who is going to buy the game or anybody who isn’t going to buy the game. I don’t judge people‘s opinion. I’m so pleased for you that you have one. I believe everybody should and they should voice it.

A persons opinion, yours or mine, does not alter fact. There is a younger generation who believes that their opinion can alter fact but it just can’t. They assume incorrectly.

Even many here who will still buy the game and play it and enjoy it would not dare to call it a Sim since they know that real race car drivers do not believe it is a Sim of their sport without pitstops and without fuel depletion and with magic tires that transform from dry to wet or from worn out to brand new while driving.

I deal in facts.

Really, I have no idea why you’re fighting with me. You need to be fighting with race car drivers who say this game is not sim.
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What facts? You know a racing driver who's declared its not a sim so the world must bow to him? Has he played it? We gonna ignore the fact he thinks GTS is a sim?

Your tone is poor, I havent fought with you yet and don't intend to as I find you unbearable from the 2 posts I've paid attention to. And fortunately for me this will be the last.
 
According to the dictionary definition of 'simulate', all racing games are simulators:


simulate
[ verb sim-yuh-leyt; adjective sim-yuh-lit, -leyt ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR simulate ON THESAURUS.COM
verb (used with object), sim·u·lat·ed, sim·u·lat·ing.
to create a simulation, likeness, or model of (a situation, system, or the like):to simulate crisis conditions.
to make a pretense of; feign:to simulate knowledge.
to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of:He simulated the manners of the rich.

Some just simulate more, some less.
Some simulate poorly, others do a better job at it.

I've made my peace that PCars 3 is not what I was hoping it would be, however I'll keep an eye on what they reveal and may buy it if I think it'll be fun and give me enjoyment. After all, that's why we play racing games isn't it?
 
IfAndOr
But then wouldn't having an authentic handling Corvette make it a simulation? ;)

I might be person 3, but we're friends so lets agree to disagree. :cheers:
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If you disagree with me, you very well know that I will acquiesce.

You know how much I love project cars 2 and you are well acquainted with my applauding and defending of Ian Bell, even when others who have had a longer history with him have crucified him .

I expect the driving to be sim and I expect the way the cars handle in the various elements to be sim and I expect most of the game will be sim.

However, if you don’t have pitstops, you are only partially Sim. If you don’t have pitstops you cannot tell the community that you’re actually more SIM than previous versions of the same game which did have pitstops (bugged or not). If you don’t have pitstops you cannot tell veteran Sim racing drivers that they’re getting more of the sim racing experience that they love.

Strong opinions and bellowing loudly, like some (not you obviously) like to do, does not alter fact. We are at 844 posts into this thread and only two people seem to believe the game is full sim without pitstops.

Maybe they will tell us that NBA 2K can remove timeouts and fouls and still be a sim.

The way they defend the game, one would believe they developed it themselves.


Animera
According to the dictionary definition of 'simulate', all racing games are simulators:


simulate
[ verb sim-yuh-leyt; adjective sim-yuh-lit, -leyt ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR simulate ON THESAURUS.COM
verb (used with object), sim·u·lat·ed, sim·u·lat·ing.
to create a simulation, likeness, or model of (a situation, system, or the like):to simulate crisis conditions.
to make a pretense of; feign:to simulate knowledge.
to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of:He simulated the manners of the rich.

Some just simulate more, some less.
Some simulate poorly, others do a better job at it.

I've made my peace that PCars 3 is not what I was hoping it would be, however I'll keep an eye on what they reveal and may buy it if I think it'll be fun and give me enjoyment. After all, that's why we play racing games isn't it?
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Pitstops are a crisis condition of racing. Therefore, you cannot be a full simulation if you do not have pitstops.

I agree 100% that much of the game may simulate driving. But, it won’t take much research for anyone to hear what professional racecar driver say about pitstops and how important they are to their sport.

If there were no games with pitstops, we might say that PC3 is doing the best they can to simulate the races that we watch on TV. However, since there are numerous racing games, including PC2 that do have pitstops, then it would have to be concluded that it is possible to have that element in the game and so if you do not have that element you cannot simulate

The only circumstance where a simulation of a thing can be missing an element and still be called a simulation is if there is no way to incorporate that element
 
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slthree
I expect the driving to be sim and I expect the way the cars handle in the various elements to be sim and I expect most of the game will be sim.

However, if you don’t have pitstops, you are only partially Sim.
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Well there we are. We agree again. 👍 :)
 
To simulate means "to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of".

By the definition of the word, any game that replicates competition between motor vehicles is, technically, a simulator of motor racing. There are just more accurate simulations and less accurate simulations.

Is there a universal agreement on where the line, that separates a 'sim' from an 'arcade', is? Because I find there is subjectivity.

Some call it 'arcade' just due the fact there are no pitstops, but there is legitimate motorsport without pitstops in the real world (TCR and WRX come to mind). Some go further and say the problem is the absence of tyre wear and fuel consumption. Here, they have a point to call the simulation, in the game, less accurate, but can it be called 'arcade' when they are still calculating things like tyre carcass vibrations, temperature interactions between the rubber and the road, and driveline flex? There's definitely some complex simulation going on here.
 
The root of the matter is that PCARS3 runs afoul of a specific definition of "sim" that is the vocabulary of a certain segment of the sim racing community. By this definition, only motorsports sims earn the label, and the only features that count are those that serve to simulate motorsports. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That is the vocabulary that @slthree knows for "sim", or close to it. But it's a generic word -- that's the fact. "Simulation" is just that; a simulation. PCARS3 simulates driving a car in the race formats SMS has devised. The racing may not be an authentic simulation of a real sport, but that's part of the value of simulations -- you can simulate hypothetical scenarios. SMS have opted for a few hypotheticals -- "what would it be like if your tires were always at ideal temperature?" is one of them. PCARS3 simulates that impossible hypothetical.

I just go by the meaning of the word, @slthree. I'm going to assume I'm not one of the two people you're taking digs at, because I don't use the term "full sim" and I have not defended SMS's decision; more the opposite, in fact. :)

I agree it should never have been said PCARS3 is "all the sim you could ever want", and the push to insist it is fully as real and authentic as PCARS2 is a wrong move. It's a sticky situation they walked into when they decided to backtrack features that were part of PCARS1 and PCARS2.
 
warp9engage
To simulate means "to assume or have the appearance or characteristics of".

By the definition of the word, any game that replicates competition between motor vehicles is, technically, a simulator of motor racing. There are just more accurate simulations and less accurate simulations.

Is there a universal agreement on where the line, that separates a 'sim' from an 'arcade', is? Because I find there is subjectivity.

Some call it 'arcade' just due the fact there are no pitstops, but there is legitimate motorsport without pitstops in the real world (TCR and WRX come to mind). Some go further and say the problem is the absence of tyre wear and fuel consumption. Here, they have a point to call the simulation, in the game, less accurate, but can it be called 'arcade' when they are still calculating things like tyre carcass vibrations, temperature interactions between the rubber and the road, and driveline flex? There's definitely some complex simulation going on here.
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I agree with every word you said but It doesn’t appear that the game is attempting to simulate the disciplines you mentioned. One could expand to a whole slew of racing where pitstops are not used. For instance, if the game was attempting to simulate funny car racing it would not need pitstops.

However, based on the tracks and the cars they have shown us in videos they are attempting to simulate the kinds of races that we see on TV where pitstops are pivotal. The Corvette C8 races in IMSA And everyone of its races contains multiple pitstops that give incredible flavor and unexpected drama to their races.

slthree
I agree with every word you said but It doesn’t appear that the game is attempting to simulate the disciplines you mentioned. One could expand to a whole slew of racing where pitstops are not used. For instance, if the game was attempting to simulate funny car racing it would not need pitstops.

However, based on the tracks and the cars they have shown us in videos they are attempting to simulate the kinds of races that we see on TV where pitstops are pivotal. The Corvette C8 races in IMSA And everyone of its races contains multiple pitstops that give incredible flavor and unexpected drama to their races.
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Wolfe
The root of the matter is that PCARS3 runs afoul of a specific definition of "sim" that is the vocabulary of a certain segment of the sim racing community. By this definition, only motorsports sims earn the label, and the only features that count are those that serve to simulate motorsports. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That is the vocabulary that @slthree knows for "sim", or close to it. But it's a generic word -- that's the fact. "Simulation" is just that; a simulation. PCARS3 simulates driving a car in the race formats SMS has devised. The racing may not be an authentic simulation of a real sport, but that's part of the value of simulations -- you can simulate hypothetical scenarios. SMS have opted for a few hypotheticals -- "what would it be like if your tires were always at ideal temperature?" is one of them. PCARS3 simulates that impossible hypothetical.

I just go by the meaning of the word, @slthree. I'm going to assume I'm not one of the two people you're taking digs at, because I don't use the term "full sim" and I have not defended SMS's decision; more the opposite, in fact. :)

I agree it should never have been said PCARS3 is "all the sim you could ever want", and the push to insist it is fully as real and authentic as PCARS2 is a wrong move. It's a sticky situation they walked into when they decided to backtrack features that were part of PCARS1 and PCARS2.
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I don't see anything I disagree with in what you say here.

Wolfe
I don't think that definition holds water.
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That is certainly your prerogative but you would be incorrect. If an element exists in any simulation and is not used in successive simulations, it is not deemed a simulation.

If they told us they were trying to simulate just racing or just driving, then we could all agree that this is a simulation.

But, they have clearly told us that pit stops are part of their game and they are trying to simulate pit stops. Facsimile and / or substitution do not a simulation make
 
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slthree
The only circumstance where a simulation of a thing can be missing an element and still be called a simulation is if there is no way to incorporate that element
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I don't think that definition holds water.
 
I'll just point out again that "All the sim you could ever want" is not actually part of any direct marketing campaign. I had this discussion a few pages back.


slthree
I just had a terribly failed attempt at multi quoting. Please, someone delete this
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That's OK, it looks like your're agreeing with yourself. The problem would be if you didn't. :P
 
slthree
That is certainly your prerogative but you would be incorrect. If an element exists in any simulation and is not used in successive simulations, it is not deemed a simulation.
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Can you name a simulation that incorporates every element ever simulated? It must include everything from the softbody physics and deformation of BeamNG.Drive to the Livetrack details of PCARS2. Terrain deformation, atmospheric effects, practically every significant mechanical part accounted for with its own "health" value, and more...

No, I don't think a definition that scratches off literally every sim is very useful. I think it is more truthful to say that pitstops were expected of PCARS3 because they are a relatively common feature of racing sims (authentic motorsports-based games or otherwise), and especially because they were a feature in PCARS1 and PCARS2.
 
IfAndOr
I'll just point out again that "All the sim you could ever want" is not actually part of any direct marketing campaign. I had this discussion a few pages back.
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It was however said by the studio head, as a direct response to concerns raised about a part of the direct marketing campaign (the initial reveal trailer).

It was then repeated in different forms, across different channels by the Online Marketing Director, "all the sim goodness that you want", "simulation has been further improved", that sim racers "have nothing to worry about" etc.

I think it’s safe to say it can be taken as an official line from the studio.
 
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Ah the old YouTuber rant. You can find those guys looking for likes and subscribers on any subject you're upset about. It reminds me of the sequel trilogy of Star Wars when everyone decided to hate things without even giving them a chance. So much so that they couldn't even look at any positives that came out of it.
 
Benny44
Ah the old YouTuber rant. You can find those guys looking for likes and subscribers on any subject you're upset about. It reminds me of the sequel trilogy of Star Wars when everyone decided to hate things without even giving them a chance. So much so that they couldn't even look at any positives that came out of it.
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Well... Newest star wars films actually are terrible. (offtopic)
 
Benny44
Ah the old YouTuber rant. You can find those guys looking for likes and subscribers on any subject you're upset about. It reminds me of the sequel trilogy of Star Wars when everyone decided to hate things without even giving them a chance. So much so that they couldn't even look at any positives that came out of it.
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Except it's kind of hard to argue with the points he made in the video. Cut and dry, they removed important core sim features and still trying to play to both casual and sim audiences.
 
MroczMR
Well... Newest star wars films actually are terrible. (offtopic)
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YouTube generation right here:lol:.

In all seriousness though, it's funny how much is stated as solid fact when in actuality it's opinion. Movies, games, etc. He stated some facts in his video - no pit stops, etc. But most was opinion.

If you've already decided not to buy the game, that's your prerogative - but coming on here and saying how bad it's going to be over and over tells me some WILL buy the game, even though they aren't happy with not having pit stops.
 
slthree
If you disagree with me, you very well know that I will acquiesce.

You know how much I love project cars 2 and you are well acquainted with my applauding and defending of Ian Bell, even when others who have had a longer history with him have crucified him .

I expect the driving to be sim and I expect the way the cars handle in the various elements to be sim and I expect most of the game will be sim.

However, if you don’t have pitstops, you are only partially Sim. If you don’t have pitstops you cannot tell the community that you’re actually more SIM than previous versions of the same game which did have pitstops (bugged or not). If you don’t have pitstops you cannot tell veteran Sim racing drivers that they’re getting more of the sim racing experience that they love.

Strong opinions and bellowing loudly, like some (not you obviously) like to do, does not alter fact. We are at 844 posts into this thread and only two people seem to believe the game is full sim without pitstops.

Maybe they will tell us that NBA 2K can remove timeouts and fouls and still be a sim.

The way they defend the game, one would believe they developed it themselves.




Pitstops are a crisis condition of racing. Therefore, you cannot be a full simulation if you do not have pitstops.

I agree 100% that much of the game may simulate driving. But, it won’t take much research for anyone to hear what professional racecar driver say about pitstops and how important they are to their sport.

If there were no games with pitstops, we might say that PC3 is doing the best they can to simulate the races that we watch on TV. However, since there are numerous racing games, including PC2 that do have pitstops, then it would have to be concluded that it is possible to have that element in the game and so if you do not have that element you cannot simulate

The only circumstance where a simulation of a thing can be missing an element and still be called a simulation is if there is no way to incorporate that element
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You should take a look at your posting style and poor tones towards people
MroczMR
Well... Newest star wars films actually are terrible. (offtopic)
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In your opinion.
 
3:38 in the video -- "Seeing it in its third iteration aim for a tier of simulation even lower than Gran Turismo..."

If you deal in "sim racer" vocabulary as I described above, this statement makes sense.

If, like me, you care the most about the overall driving experience -- everything you do behind the (on-screen) wheel, including sprint races or when not racing other cars -- that statement is nonsense. People who have tried PCARS2 after playing GT Sport don't compliment its driving experience just because of its tire wear/temperature and fuel consumption.
 
MagpieRacer
You should take a look at your posting style and poor tones towards people


.
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Of course you would not like my tone because you believe if you bellow and bray loud enough with your opinions that you can alter what everyone here sees as fact

You even found it necessary to insult the poor fella who is giving his simple opinion on Star wars movies

Why did you have to tell him that was his opinion in a condescending way when he never stated it was a fact?

You are quite typically an anonymous Internet bully.
 
Wolfe
3:38 in the video -- "Seeing it in its third iteration aim for a tier of simulation even lower than Gran Turismo..."

If you deal in "sim racer" vocabulary as I described above, this statement makes sense.

If, like me, you care the most about the overall driving experience -- everything you do behind the (on-screen) wheel, including sprint races or when not racing other cars -- that statement is nonsense. People who have tried PCARS2 after playing GT Sport don't compliment its driving experience just because of its tire wear/temperature and fuel consumption.
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Its insulting to both project cars and Gran Turismo at the same time. Its also ridiculous. Sadly people will listen.
 
PolarClaw
This is the guy who used a bug in AMS 2 EA to show how you shave seconds with setup ... for sure this guy is jumping on every click bait he is able to do.
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That's kind of the point of early access, to reveal bugs so they can be fixed for final version. Don't hate on someone because they dont like your game
 
For me personally this is a huge deal. I still will buy this game when it comes out for I support my sim racing game developers, but this hit me hard. I am not the fastest or the most knowledgeable when it come to Motorsports, but I love cars! What’s crazy is GTS actually got me into PCars AC and ACC. When competing in the Sports mode C races and manufacturers I have never been so locked In. Never knew how important fuel and tire preservation was in racing, for I mainly just hot lapped and career.

As I stated before I was intrigued to see what Ac and PC had to offer because of their serious simulation nature. Both games in my opinion deliverd big time in the simulation department for me. For PC3 to drop Pit stops, fuel depletion and tire wear??? I’m not with it, again I will buy the game and probably find the fun in it but they dropped the ball on this big time in my opinion. Three huge factors won’t be there when it comes to just cars, forget about motorsports.
 
I don't know why everyone in this thread is fighting so hard over buzzwords.

If you enjoy short races without much bother for tire wear and the like with great driving physics, power to you. The issue arises for people that want to replicate real world racing series as realistically as possible. I did dozens of multi hour races in career mode in PC1 with a controller just for the immersive motorsports experience it offered. Without tire wear/fuel consumption I see no point in playing PC3 if I want to do long races. I doubt many serious fans will want to race GT cars, NASCAR, IndyCar, F1, LeMans 24Hr, etc. because a major component of the real races (tire wear/pit stops) is no longer in the game. This is a shame because Project Cars has always been great for those types of races with the dynamic weather, tracks, and time cycle.
 
Colonel_BMW
I don't know why everyone in this thread is fighting so hard over buzzwords.
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I don't care for the common idea that hardcore sims are for serious authentic motorsports and only for serious authentic motorsports, because developers who share that perspective don't make sims I would prefer to play, and pickings are slim these days.

Your framing of the issue is more to the point. 👍
 
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Benny44
It reminds me of the sequel trilogy of Star Wars when everyone decided to hate things without even giving them a chance. So much so that they couldn't even look at any positives that came out of it.
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MagpieRacer
YIn your opinion.
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lol ok off topic break let's go. You two pals tell me anything good out of the sequels other than the character of Kylo Ren and the two throne scenes in the last jedi.
__________________________________

On topic now. It is time for sms to release more gameplay videos and/or some informative ones about the new features such as car parts and all that.
 

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