Project Gotham Racing 4

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Click over to Digg and its getting out of hand over the current issue of PGR4 not fitting well on the DVD-9 disc. Its a bunch of "I told you so" and "Microsoft fans on Digg are idiots," so basically a bunch of bandwagon hopping (as most Digg users appear to be Microsoft/Wii players).

Meh, S-happens. As long as the game comes out, and it is a damn-good one, I'm happy. I loved PGR2, PGR3 was a blast, and I'm expecting even more goodness from PGR4. Still, it does become apparent that Microsoft will need to address these issues in the future, and I think the dropping of the "Core" system is their first step in doing so.
 
I heard about this news on Computer and Video Games website, and some person said the following:

"Put it on 2 DVD's then"

But I just told the person people don't want a game, where you have to swap around the DVD to just play a night track.
 
...of course that would depend how much you wanted a night track.

You'd have the option of waiting months for technology to advance enough to fit the whole thing onto one CD, or having it split into two.
 
Maybe some of the data like the tracks and the cars should be installed onto the Hard Drive, while leaving the rest of the data on the DVD. Then again DVD is a dying off slowly and may not be around in the next 5-7 years time.
 
I'm pretty much assuming that Microsoft will have to move to a pre-load setup on the new games simply because the DVD format doesn't have the space they need. We're only two years in on a presumed 5-7 year run on the X360, so obviously they need to figure out something soon.
 
Like I said before - only internet geeks will ever know about the lack of space on a DVD compared to the PS3's Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray will likely have bigger games, but the average consumer won't care or know. As long as things like Gears of War and Madden works, most people are gonna be happy with it. I really don't think it's a major blow to Microsoft, because it's really the vocal minority of gamers who get on internet message boards and do "flame wars" or whatever.

It sucks for us who actually pay attention to these things, but what can you do? And I don't know what Microsoft was supposed to do in the first place - HD-DVD wasn't a Microsoft product like Blu-Ray was to Sony. They would basically be investing their entire gaming division on something they had no control over and didn't know the future of.
 
Like I said before - only internet geeks will ever know about the lack of space on a DVD compared to the PS3's Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray will likely have bigger games, but the average consumer won't care or know.

Right, which is why no one cared about the tiny Gamecube discs, either. The games were just fun, and that's what sold them.
 
If I can remember correct, GT2 was on 2 Discs. 1 for arcade, and 1 for career. Hmm. That solves problems right there.
 
If I can remember correct, GT2 was on 2 Discs. 1 for arcade, and 1 for career. Hmm. That solves problems right there.

That is correct sir. GT2 was a 2 disc game.
 
Either way, according to Bizarre Creations, it isn't a problem at all... The quote was taken out of context.

Bizarre Creations
As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...

When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.

The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.

Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!

We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.

Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.

You Can see the full image set here.

...I hope that clears stuff up...
 
Either way, according to Bizarre Creations, it isn't a problem at all... The quote was taken out of context.

You Can see the full image set here.

...I hope that clears stuff up...
It clears up any doubt that Bizarre Creations is good at spin control. ;)

You could just as well turn that back around see that he is clearly admitting that, "yes, if we or had we spent more time and resources on PGR4 we could and would need more disc capacity than a single DVD9".

It’s also disappointing to see a spokesman fall into the same weak argument as often seen on forums where someone calls someone else a fanboy just because they pointed out a fact that makes their position/opinion look flawed.

Yes, there are "fanboys", many who drastically exaggerate the facts, and who will blindly support whatever it is that they are a "fanboy" of, but there are many consumers who are simply pointing out real facts, one of which happens to be that there are real limitations to having games on DVD9, just as there was when games were on CD:ROM. Imagine what it would have been like had the PS2 or the original Xbox been released with only a CD:ROM drive… well, that is pretty much what we are seeing with the X360 being released with only a DVD drive.

That said, as others have mentioned, it's not the size of a game that determines its quality, and that many "small" games are absolute classics and a joy to play, and I'm sure there have been many "massive" games that were terrible games, and a waste of time to play.

That said, no amount of spin is going to hide the fact that DVD9 has been around for over ten years, and some game developers were using up its limited capacity as far back as four years ago. And all anyone has to do is track the history of game development for consoles and the physical data size of games over the last 10 years and one quickly sees it is following a similar formula of growth as determined by Moore's Law and thus current and future games are most certainly limited by DVD9.

In fact, as seen from Resistance: FOM, Lair, Heavenly Sword, Killzone 2, MGS4, GT5 and other PS3 games, developers are already developing and releasing games using 2-5 times more disc space than those on a DVD9.

Yes, developers could release a multi-disc set, but with today's non-linear games, that would drive gamers crazy... which is why there have been almost no 2-disc games on consoles. GT2 came out over seven years ago, and it had the advantage of having basically two different game modes that could be broken up rather successfully.

Others might argue that, like some PC games, they could release multi-discs that you would then copy onto your console's HDD, but first you would have to have a fairly large HDD, and then you'd have to be willing to spend a very long time copying it to the HDD. And unless you had a huge HDD, or very few games, you'll also have to be willing to spend countless hours deleting and re-installing your games off the HDD... thus why I seriously doubt we will see many, if any multi-disc games for the X360.

There are a lot of things you can say about the X360, much of which is very good, but one thing it will always be remembered for are the many sacrifices Microsoft made, incuding the lack of any next-gen blue laser optical disc drive, in order to get a one year head start on Sony and to cut as many costs as possible, including its design.

Considering the X360 has not come close to matching the sales of the PS2 along the same product release timeline, and with its current sales pace, may not even match the sales rate of the original Xbox. And considering that Microsoft has lost well over $6 billion dollars already in their Xbox endeavors, and is expected to post another $1-2 billion dollar loss by the end of the year, suggests that their gamble not only hasn't paid off, but has made things much worse as far as recouping their significant investment.

It is for these reasons and others, why many MS investors are furious with Microsoft, and are calling for an end to future Xbox endeavors... at least in terms of hardware. In terms of software, MS is in a position to make a killing, but it's their hardware that continues to drain them of cash.. and the whole purpose of the X360 was to change that, and instead it made things far worse for MS...

And after the last couple weeks, where investors saw Microsoft lose $25 billion dollars in stock value... MS investors are not in a good mood!


Getting back to the subject, I have no doubt PGR4 will be a fine game on a single DVD9, but I also am not foolish enough to believe that had they given the game more resources, it would have not only been just as good, but likely much better and bigger if they had the ability to put it on a HD DVD or Blu-ray discs.
 
I was watching something the other day that had discussed the format wars, presumably DL.TV or Diggnation, and they pretty much said what is going on now was inevitable. There is no way in hell Microsoft would want to shell out the cash to Sony for the Blu-Ray drive in the X360 from the get-go, so that end of the bargaining table certainly is covered. That however didn't free them from criticism over skipping out of HD-DVD in the X360, which likely would have evened out the format wars just a bit more.

I guess I really can't fault Microsoft too much, as they just want to make money (I thought the X360 already broke even, and then the issues pulled it back down?). As long as they make good games that I enjoy, I'm happy... Plus, there is always GFW on the PC...
 
(I thought the X360 already broke even, and then the issues pulled it back down?)
Not even close. They don't even expect to be profitable on a quarterly basis until sometime in 2008, but that's just quarterly. They had a cumulative loss of $5.4 billion last year, and in their last quarterly report, they showed another $700 million loss from their Xbox division, and have already informed Wall Street to expect another $1-2 billion dollar loss from that division by the end of the year, largely due to having to extend the warranty and cover the cost of repairs or replacements for customers experiencing the dreaded 3-Red-Rings of Death.

Unfortunately though, this extended warranty wont cover the overwhelmingly large number of their customers who are having other serious problems with their X360 consoles that require repair or replacement. If Microsoft decides to cover these issues as well, then we can expected additional expeneses of upwards of $3 billion dollars.

So even if by 2008, they have a quarter that is finally profitable, say they make $100 million in profits for the second quarter of 2008, that would mean they would need 80 similar performing quarters to just break even on their investment... that's twenty years!

You are going to be very hard pressed to find one single investment analyst with a shred of credibility that will be willing to predict that the X360 division will ever earn enough profits to wipe out all the losses MS' Xbox division has had over the last five years and continues to have from their Xbox endeavors.

There are already cases studies on this at some MBA schools... that's how bad this is for Microsoft.


But there are already threads on GTP discussing this, so let’s get back onto PGR4, which I still believe will be a great game, and certainly a top selling game for X360! 👍
 
Now, when you say "they" do you mean Microsoft as a whole? Is Microsoft in general losing money, or is it just their Xbox division?
 
New images.

Quebec City from a while ago:

project-gotham-racing-4-20070803054123641.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070803054131110.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070803054127547.jpg


Comparison pics:

med-visoterra-quebec-trompe-l-oeil-2295.jpg


4t526b4.jpg


Miscellaneous images released today:

project-gotham-racing-4-20070810044.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-4.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-1.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810045.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-2.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-3.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-5.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-10.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-9.jpg


project-gotham-racing-4-20070810-6.jpg


And it looks great as always.
 
Quebec City will offer people into the whole Photomode scene a lot of good places to take shots.
 
God this is just getting crazy. I do wonder when we will hit that point in which it looks too realistic to be able to tell the difference...
 
God this is just getting crazy. I do wonder when we will hit that point in which it looks too realistic to be able to tell the difference...
In still shots? We're pretty much there. In motion? Many, many years from now.

I will say, though, that flat building surfaces and visibly shorthanded curved structures are still rather easy to notice, here. ;) Of course, this is just a 360 game, not a state-of-the-art computer animation produced with no regard for the ability to process in real time.
 
Is this a game about architecture or racing? :indiff:

If I wanted pretty pictures of buildings, I'd download the real thing off the web.

Call me very much unimpressed. From appearances it looks like Microsoft is spending more time and resources on making still shots of buildings look good, and still shots of "rain" look good, but when are we going to see some gameplay graphics that look like that?

So far the trailers I've seen for PGR4 look like Microsoft has taken a page from EA's marketing book and has "enhanced" the graphics. Even when you look at some of their "enhanced" HD trailers you can see a noticeable drop in graphic quality.

For instance, if you look at the E3 Trailer and compare the opening sequence to the one that starts 53 seconds into the trailer you'll see what I mean. In addition, the cars and bike also look like they are "disconnected" from the track, not in elevation, but in how they show almost no reaction/movement to the track surface.

Frankly DiRT looks far more realistic than what little I've seen of actual gameplay footage for PGR4.

Perhaps this may be why the game's release date for September 11th has been delayed.
 
Where have you been for the last 5 years?

This is something Bizarre has always done because they take pride in re-creating the cities.
 
I must admit as nice as those pics are I'd like to see some more gameplay. Maybe at Leipzig or that Microsoft thing in Canada(?) we'll see something?
 
Is this a game about architecture or racing? :indiff:

If I wanted pretty pictures of buildings, I'd download the real thing off the web.

Call me very much unimpressed. From appearances it looks like Microsoft is spending more time and resources on making still shots of buildings look good, and still shots of "rain" look good, but when are we going to see some gameplay graphics that look like that?

So far the trailers I've seen for PGR4 look like Microsoft has taken a page from EA's marketing book and has "enhanced" the graphics. Even when you look at some of their "enhanced" HD trailers you can see a noticeable drop in graphic quality.

Have you played PGR3? Bizarre Creations love their buildings, and that's why they release so many photos of them. They did this before with PGR3, and the tracks when playing the game looked just like the photos.

The reason it might look downgraded is because you're comparing still, focused shots without compression artifacts (as long as you ignore the crap IGN shots) with compressed video that probably has some motion blur applied as well. The screenshots don't look photoshopped, nor do they look out of the realm of possibility. PGR3 doesn't look much worse, after all.

As for the rain, you bring up a good point, and I'm guessing we're only going to see that detail we've seen in photos in the cockpit view (obviously, as the 3rd person cam won't be able to capture that detail), and in the photomode as well.

The only thing that could be bullshotted (ie touched up) are the cars themselves, and even still the big reason why PGR3 looked worse than its photomode pics is because the game ran at 600p. 600p = jaggyville.

For instance, if you look at the E3 Trailer and compare the opening sequence to the one that starts 53 seconds into the trailer you'll see what I mean. In addition, the cars and bike also look like they are "disconnected" from the track, not in elevation, but in how they show almost no reaction/movement to the track surface.

PGR has always been like this.

Frankly DiRT looks far more realistic than what little I've seen of actual gameplay footage for PGR4.

:lol: Come on, D-N. The damage in DiRT destroys everything else out there (Forza 2, PGR, NFS, etc), but you're should play the demo of that first. DiRT is by no means more realistic than PGR with the rally cars feeling weightless in handling as well as the braking and accelerating.

Perhaps this may be why the game's release date for September 11th has been delayed.

PGR4 hasn't been delayed. All I posted was that Bizarre was taking their time with PGR4, and the thing you might've heard about it being delayed to early October came from a no-name source and was debunked as well I believe.
 
According to their forums, something from them should be there.
EDIT*
The delay seems false. MS' factsheet from Friday reports Sept. 11.
http://www.gametactics.com/?view=article&article=1252&cat=6
If true this may be bad news, especially considering its only three weeks away and there is very little in the way of actual gameplay footage that's been released.

This also may mean that once again, Microsoft management has once again "ripped" PGR from the developers' hands before it was completely finished and polished (assuming you believe what the folks at Microsoft's Bizarre productions said about PGR3, and their response to the report of a delay past the original September release date):

Project Gotham 4 Won't Be Released "Until It's Done"
Posted on 07/20/2007 14:12 (BST) by Ellie Gibson
Microsoft is quoting a September date for PGR4 but business director Woodhouse told Eurogamer, "This one, we're not letting go til it's done."

Speaking during a presentation of the game at E3, Woodhouse said the development team "ran out of time" when creating the previous PGR game.

"We feel like we've got more time [on PGR4]. Last time round, we feel like we got the game ripped away from us," he said.

"We were disappointed with that. With 2 we probably got it right. With 1 we rushed it out as well. 3, you know, it was a launch title so we were under enormous pressure,"
 

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