PS3 General Discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Solid Lifters
  • 14,035 comments
  • 907,738 views
Well nobody knows if the PS3 will have a HDD, I Personally hope it will, and alot of games companys have been nagging Sony to have some sort of mass storage for MMORPG's and the like. I recon if they do have one it would be between 30 and 40gb. But thats just hope and speculation. BTW you guys do know that the PS3 is to appear at Taipei Game Show this week. Its starts on Thursday and finishes on Monday next week, and Sony is dedicating 25% to the PS3.

BTW another source indicates that the product list for PS3 LINK Shows a HDD for to go on sale seperatly.

[edit]

Nice interview and look at the RSX from Nvidias point of view. LINK

Ive been reading about and they are saying that the PS3 is to have a memory boost and a clock speed boost too (on the RSX)

[edit 2] All just speculation of course ;)
 
New Launch Date Rumors

According to “development sources” in contact with Next-Gen, the PS3 is scheduled to launch in both Japan and the US in September this year, specifically September 16 in Japan (a day before a national holiday) and September 21 in the US.

More speculation from a second source...

September launch

Developer sources are also suggesting that PlayStation 3 is currently scheduled to launch in September. A launch games release schedule seen by our sources states a September launch. Although the schedule does not explicitly state a hardware launch date, nor a launch territory, we understand Japan and U.S will both see the machine in September.

Some in the industry have taken this as a lead to speculate that September 16 would be a launch date in Japan (a Saturday before a national holiday) followed by September 21 in the U.S. These dates are not confirmed and, as always, launch dates are subject to constant revision.

A spokesperson for SCEA said the company does not comment on rumors. However, we understand Sony is preparing to announce HUB some time in the next few weeks.
 
So, why is there nothing new about the TAIPEI GAME SHOW ? No info, no pics, no nothing. The first day of that show is already over and there is nothing worth
to tell ? I'm kind of dissapointed tbh........
 
Max_DC
So, why is there nothing new about the TAIPEI GAME SHOW ? No info, no pics, no nothing. The first day of that show is already over and there is nothing worth
to tell ? I'm kind of dissapointed tbh........
The first just started, actually. Give a few more hours from now, and I'm sure something will come through. The website for the TGS2006 is too busy, which means people are either flooding it, or they're adding some updates with new info.

EDIT: Scratch that... nothing has changed... http://tgs.tca.org.tw/

The last date for new info was added on the 12th, but only in the Chinese language section of the site... http://tgs.tca.org.tw/news/
 
Nice bit of info on the memory usage on the PS3 by a developer in his blog.

Deano of Ninja Theory
02.15.06
Memory Management

Posted in Computer Games, Development at 10:57 pm by Deano

You would think that as we get more and more memory in consoles, that memory management would get easier but alas its not to be…

PS3 has 512Mb of RAM in total, which is a sizeable chunk when compared with the last generation of consoles (64Mb in the Xbox). The problem is that, we want to do much more and we want to do it ‘easier‘.

So where does it all go…

Well first you have to OS thats going to take a bit of the apple. And its a sizeable chunk…

Then we need space for all these lovely HDR AA framebuffers and render targets.

Then we have textures and geometry and least we forget animation data and sound. These content items consume the vast majority of the RAM. Off the top of my head its in the region of about 300Mb in total! This is all streamed as well, so be glad you have a nice big disk (Edit: talking about optical disks i.e. Blu-ray) to put things on…

So whats left? This gets to be used by code and the actual run-time heap. And suddenly all those ‘high level’ C++ things don’t seem like such a good idea. XML, std::strings, std::maps etc. consume memory like its going out of fashion… then something wants some more for pushbuffers and havok wants some for collision meshes and then there are load buffers and etc.

The grand result is you find your way over memory budget and whats potentially worse, its a really hard problem to track. We are a big team that can produce far more resources than I (as Lead Programmer) can cope with… So I have to resort to forgetting all this new fancy PC techniques and falling back to the good ol’ fashioned console style system.

So no memory allocation in-game, fixed size heaps and linear (AKA frame) allocators for each sub-system. If something don’t fit, tough…
Of course its a harsh reality for some, given how many people who trained in a modern university are taught. To be clear I mean, taught badly. Quite a few university in the UK don’t even teach C++ let along C and ASM these days. What good is it teaching people in languages like Java and C# with garbage collectors when in some cases we don’t even have conventional heaps!

So my list of things to make games development on consoles easier…

Track everything - Every allocation, every free. Have different memory policies and make people stick to them. Its easier to keep to a limit, than have to scramble to make things fit later on. Decide early, how much memory each system gets and don’t budge unless the person is really convincing (Any of my team reading this… I have been known to take bribes )

Keep things simple - While fancy C++ is fun, avoid it if you can. STL and things like vtables can hurt you badly unless your very careful. Any bits you use, make sure you have custom memory allocators.

Don’t think its a PC - Running well on PC, tells you exactly nothing about the performance and footprint on a console. Its a hard real-time embedded system just like its ancestors. One early library call we used was an order of magnitude slower than the same code on PC, so something that took a couple of seconds (development only serialisation code) took minutes. Luckily the library was quickly fixed but there were a few scary moments for a while

Don’t forget the old stuff - Its really no different in many ways from PS1 and PS2. If it good on PS1 its likely still good today, just you can do it ALOT more times on PS3.

To be honest, it make me feel comfortable knowing its still the same stuff that important. Guess its means my skills aren’t quite yet ready to be put out to pasture, even if many of the younger programmers think I’m a bit mad when I talk about fixed sized array versus std::vector and C/ASM rather than C++.

One bit I don’t like about it though, is sometimes having to be the bad guy and forcing the team to do things the hard way… Lot of them are good guys but really don’t want to program in a console friendly fashion…

Prehaps the most interesting bit, is that like a console of yore, there is going to be a lot of mileage over the generations of games.

I’ll make a prediction for how PS3 games will evolve.
1st Gen: PPU used for most things with the SPUs just doing some heavy lifting
2nd Gen: PPU still dominant but SPUs doing a lot more tasks.
3rd Gen: SPU completely dominant with PPU now more of a game coprocessor.

I expect the third generation of PS3 titles will really shine, the first engine that is really SPU centric and just treats the PPU as a coprocessor is going to kick arse. The SPUs are fast like greased lightning but just require a different paradigm thats not going to be fully incorporated for a few generations…

His Blog
 
Lools like we we will get new info on march 22nd on a PS3 keynote.

Still nothing new from the second "TGS"... great

...and concerning this blog... well I asked myself many times why they don't just add 1 or 2 GB RAM to the new consoles. Yeah I know Ram is expensive, but they are probably worth the money in longterm if you consider the better grafics for the majority of games...
 
Yep. It looks like they're saving everything for E3 2006.

They did say something new...

Speaking to reporters at the event, Tatsuhiko Yasuda Managing Director ofSony Computer Entertainment Asia claimed "We want to be completely prepared when we bring PlayStation 3 to the marketplace," adding "Our No. 1 competition is not other companies but counterfeiters. We want to work with governments to stop this."
 
I couldn't remember if the PS3 had 512 megs of ram total, or for system memory. It really needs to have at least half a gig of system ram. I hope Sony gives it the capacity to be expanded with ram as well as a hard drive. I was thinking that if it did have 256 system ram, that we'd be seeing stuff like the above developer's blog.

Sony, you still have time. Don't short sheet the PS3 like you did the PS2! Make it more futureproof! At least give us the option to upgrade. :nervous:
 
Master_Yoda
The PS2 was great, it came out a LONG time before Gamecube or xbox...

The games were/are great, but concerning hardware power the GC and especially the Xbox are superior, with maybe a few little exceptions....

But this is a different story now, new generation - new fight...
 
All the above is true. Especially the splendor of the PS2. However, Sony did skimp on ram of all types to get it sold at a $299 price point. Developers hated it. You need ram to do fancy graphics and make dramatic things happen with all those textures, bitmaps, light and particle effects, and polygons. Fortunately Sony gave the developers very well designed toolkits, and the developers learned how to squeeze the maximum horsepower out of the console themselves. Gran Turismo 4 is much better than it has any business doing on the PS2.

If we want excellent graphics and an accurate world to frolic, shoot, fly or drive in, then the PS3 needs as much ram as Sony can give it. If we want accurate collision models in GT5 which aren't preset, and have several cars looking the same, or have one environment reflection pasted from our car to all the others like Polyphony had to resort to in GT4, then 256 megs of system ram might not be enough. And in the future when Sony and developers begin to use those eight co-processors for some stunning things, free ram will be essential. 256megs of system/256 megs of VRam might end up being as much of a bottleneck as the 16/4 megs on the PS2. I don't know for sure, but I do know that the game Battlefield 2 on the PC wants you to have at LEAST one gigabye. To get those movie-like environments on the PS3, it might need something similar. I'd think 512 megs minimum is what developers recommended.

I hope that Sony has the good sense to make the PS3 a system which developers won't have to jump through too many hoops to get the most out of.
 
Tenacious D
All the above is true. Especially the splendor of the PS2. However, Sony did skimp on ram of all types to get it sold at a $299 price point. Developers hated it. You need ram to do fancy graphics and make dramatic things happen with all those textures, bitmaps, light and particle effects, and polygons. Fortunately Sony gave the developers very well designed toolkits, and the developers learned how to squeeze the maximum horsepower out of the console themselves. Gran Turismo 4 is much better than it has any business doing on the PS2.

If we want excellent graphics and an accurate world to frolic, shoot, fly or drive in, then the PS3 needs as much ram as Sony can give it. If we want accurate collision models in GT5 which aren't preset, and have several cars looking the same, or have one environment reflection pasted from our car to all the others like Polyphony had to resort to in GT4, then 256 megs of system ram might not be enough. And in the future when Sony and developers begin to use those eight co-processors for some stunning things, free ram will be essential. 256megs of system/256 megs of VRam might end up being as much of a bottleneck as the 16/4 megs on the PS2. I don't know for sure, but I do know that the game Battlefield 2 on the PC wants you to have at LEAST one gigabye. To get those movie-like environments on the PS3, it might need something similar. I'd think 512 megs minimum is what developers recommended.

I hope that Sony has the good sense to make the PS3 a system which developers won't have to jump through too many hoops to get the most out of.


1) System memory is used to allocate running applications, such as physics, AI, and other routine applications running int he background.

2) The other 256MB of memory is actually more than enough, and a note to all, not one developer is going to use both AA and HDR, it's just NOT going to happen with anything less than a 1GB memory unit for the GPU. So you can kiss THOSE hopes goodbye, or else save up a couple G's.

3) The PS3 doesn't run an OS full time, only during start up and browsing, in the mean time, the OS shuts down, and the game boots up as the sole operating software, freeing up many system resources otherwise used in general application. Developers can do much more with 256MB on a console then they could ever dream to do with a PC.

4) The PS2 did not have 64MB of video memory, in fact, it only had FOUR megabytes of VRAM. The reason it is possible for the PS2 to do such amazing things is because of compression technology and it's extremely high bandwidth, which the PS3 more than doubles, in fact I think nearly triples or more, I cannot remember at the moment.
 
sony did not skimp on ram, they had more than the competetion and its 4mb of vram was half of DC's but that 4 was embeded ram and was much faster than DC's 8. PS2 has 6.2gflops to Dc's 1.4

I hope that Sony has the good sense to make the PS3 a system which developers won't have to jump through too many hoops to get the most out of.

Getting the game to work at all is the most important thing, not geting the most out of it right away. not half the xbox 360 games out run a constant 60fps, These games just work and dont even scrape the icing of raw power of the system. Full auto was promised to be 60 fps at e3 05 and the final game stumbles along at 30 most of the time.
 
Sony PS3 Details Unveiled In March

Sony's Phil Harrison has been announced as a keynote speaker at the Game Developers Conference

Over the past several weeks it seems more and more “industry insiders” are speculating on everything regarding the PS3. The question that all of us want to know is “When will we finally get some official word on the Sony PS3?”

Well it looks like March 22nd is the answer. Phil Harrison has been announced as the latest keynote speaker at the 2006 Game Developers Conference, alongside the likes of Nintendo’s Sataru Iwata and Maxis’ Will Wright.

Harrison is the president of Sony's worldwide studios, who assisted in the unveiling of the PS3 at last years E3. His speech a the conference will be titled "PlayStation 3: Beyond the Box," and will outline Sony's business plans for the PS3 as well as how its technology will help guide the video game industry through the next generation.

"Mr. Harrison's talk comes at the perfect time for the eager developer audience at the GDC," said Jamil Moledina, director of the Game Developers Conference. "His discussion will answer many questions developers have for Sony at this stage before the impending PS3 launch."

The 2006 Game Developers Conference takes place March 20-24 in San Jose, California. Harrison's keynote speech is scheduled for Wednesday, March 22 from 10:30 a.m.-11:30 a.m. PST.
 
Some more news from the Taipei Games Show again credited to Tetsuhiko Yasuda, managing director of Sony Computer Entertainment Asia.

Sony will definitely launch its new PlayStation 3 (PS3) game console this year, though the company still has not decided on a launch date nor pricing for the console, said Tetsuhiko Yasuda, managing director of Sony Computer Entertainment Asia, on February 16 at the Taipei Game Show.

While stressing that the earlier launch of Microsoft’s Xbox 360 did not add pressure on Sony, Yasuda told reporters that the company wants to be completely prepared when it begins marketing the PS3.

Accumulated global shipments for the PS3 are expected to exceed 100 million units, a record that was set by Sony’s earlier games consoles, the PS and PS2, despite the fact that the PS3 will be priced higher than the PS2, Yasuda said.

To the disappointment of attendees at the show, Sony only displayed three mock-up versions of the PS3 and demonstrated some functions of the new console through a video. This raised doubts if Sony can really bring the PS3 to the market in the spring of this year as expected, according to market sources.

The PS3 will lag the Xbox 360 more in market share if Sony delays launch of the PS3 to the end of 2006, the sources said, noting that Microsoft predicted global shipments of its Xbox 360 will reach 4.5-5.5 million units by the end of June.

Yasuda also told reporters that Sony is expected to follow its previous experience in the production of the PS and PS2 by outsourcing production of the PS3 to contract makers a few months after its launch, according to a February report in the Chinese-language Commercial Times.

Taiwan makers are expected to benefit from Sony’s outsourcing policy and win orders for the PS3 in 2007 since local makers have been producing the PS2 and PSP (PlayStation Portable) for the Japanese vendor, the paper said.
www.digitimes.com
 
Nice article found about the RSX

Bit-Teck & Nvidia
RSX and the PlayStation 3

For those that don't know, if you've been living under a rock for the last few months, the graphics processor in the PlayStation 3 is NVIDIA-designed and is called RSX. How does it compare next to the 7800?

"The two products share the same heritage, the same technology. But RSX is faster," said Kirk.

But for how much longer, we wonder? With the PlayStation 3 not due until March 2006, won't the next generation of PC graphics be here by then? "At the time consoles are announced, they are so far beyond what people are used to, it's unimaginable," David comments. "At the time they're shipped, there's a narrower window until the next PC architecture." In other words, RSX looks incredible now, but when it launches, there'll be a smaller time until PC looks better.

"However, what consoles have is a huge price advantage." And 'huge' is the appropriate word: pricing is still to be announed by Sony, but Playstation 3 could debut at £399 - the price of a 7800GTX board, yet offering so much more.

Whilst their relationship with Microsoft has become publicly tenuous, what about NVIDIA's relationship with their new console partner?

"So far our relationship with Sony has been great. We have a much closer relationship and share a much broader vision for the future of computing and graphics.

"When we came together a few years ago, we found a vision and experience that we shared. It sounds cliched, but Japanese companies are often trying to create a vision and make the technology follow that, not the other way round. We believed in that."


"Our commonality with Sony has led to a number of product areas that go beyond PlayStation 3. The business deal is structured so that both companies benefit. It's a really good realtionship."

So I put it to David that there might be more to come from Sony and NVIDIA: "The deal goes beyond PS3. The future is looking good."

What does this mean exactly? Until we get some concrete details, it could in theory translate to NVIDIA-powered graphics in just about any suitable device that Sony make: Sony VAIO desktop and notebook computers would be an obvious opportunity; another distinct possibility is NVIDIA GoForce wireless media processors (WMP) inside future SonyEricsson mobile phones.

A rank outsider would be NVIDIA Inside for a future replacement for the PSP, but we should stress that this is all pure speculation. What we do know is that NVIDIA design kick-ass graphics chips and Sony make some of the most desirable consumer electronics available. Put those two together and you have quite a potent combination - we look forward to seeing what they come up with.

And in the same article about HDR & AA together.

Using AA with HDR

For those of you with super-duper graphics cards, you will have come across a problem: you can't use Anti-Aliasing when using HDR lighting, for example in Far Cry. In these cases, it's a situation where you have to choose one or the other. Why is this, and when is the problem going to get solved?

"OK, so the problem is this. With a conventional rendering pipeline, you render straight into the final buffer - so the whole scene is rendered straight into the frame buffer and you can apply the AA to the scene right there."


"But with HDR, you render individual components from a scene and then composite them into a final buffer. It's more like the way films work, where objects on the screen are rendered separately and then composited together. Because they're rendered separately, it's hard to apply FSAA (note the full-screen prefix, not composited-image AA! -Ed) So traditional AA doesn't make sense here."

So if it can't be done in existing hardware, why not create a new hardware feature of the graphics card that will do both?

"It would be expensive for us to try and do it in hardware, and it wouldn't really make sense - it doesn't make sense, going into the future, for us to keep applying AA at the hardware level. What will happen is that as games are created for HDR, AA will be done in-engine according to the specification of the developer.

"Maybe at some point, that process will be accelerated in hardware, but that's not in the immediate future."

But if the problem is the size of the frame buffer, wouldn't the new range of 512MB cards help this?

"With more frame buffer size, yes, you could possibly get closer. But you're talking more like 2GB than 512MB."

Also found today on the PS3 Portal. (I personaly think it means squat)

Nvidia has reported that they will not be receiving royalties from Sony for this fiscal quarter. This suggests that the production of their chip for the PS3 will not begin until after the quarter concludes in April. Jen-Hsun Huang, CEO of Nvidia, could not comment about the released Schedule for the PS3, only stating that the RSX is done and ready for production.

Even assuming that all of the other parts for the PS3 are in production, the fact that the graphics chip will not be in production until end of April or later casts doubt on the launch schedule. It would be impossible for the console to ship in the spring to any territory if this were the case. Sony has maintained that the console will launch in spring 2006, but as reports like these come in, it seems more and more unlikely.

And a big hit for us gamers in the Europe.

SPonG are reporting that the offical launch date of the Playstation 3 in Europe will be a very late March 2007. This is certainly not the global launch that PS3 fans were hoping for (or at least we hope it isn’t a global launch).

The information comes from information “disseminated to third-party developers, publishers and retail in the past week.” More specifically, it is from a leaked SCEE documentation which has since been corroborated by two publishing sources, a handful of developers and a leading pan-European retailer.

SPonG further reports that they have absolutely no official idea on the US or Japan dates.

Again i think that this has no weight, but ya never know.
 
March 2007. So, saying September launch.... that's 6 months.
Well it's certainly plausible but I feel Sony will be dropping the ball doing that. If a September launch is possible than a December Europe launch should be possible. Sony could stand to lose some 200,000+ 360 sales over the Christmas period in Europe (though personally I feel the 360 fever will cool off unless it's at a very good price, say £160 or less?)

Maybe I'll import a PS3? Good God! It'd cost a fortune!!:scared:
 
tha_con: 16/4=16 megs system, 4 megs VRam. Which I was incorrect about system ram.

I think you must be wrong about the OS structure of the PS3. More than likely if the OS is tiny, it's a small shell that remains. If games completely replaced the Sony OS, that would be tantamount to a reboot. Which is possible, it would certainly benefit the games if each game had its own OS tailored to run it. If this is the case, it's fascinating, and I'd love to see something like a Gaming OS for the PC. But I think there is indeed a Sony OS which stays resident. To erase it with game loads would seem to be rather clumsy. Maybe Solid Lifters can shed some light on that.

I also contend that it's going to be a while before we're at Toy Story level graphics if the PS3 has only 512meg total ram. I do want a system which developers will find a dream to code for. I won't grouch if this is what I buy, but it would be irritating if I found that even before the launch, the development community had mail bombed Sony with pleas for a PS4.

LaBounti:

You're right that Sony did give the PS2 more overall ram. I was consulting some preliminary data. Sometimes Google has to be paid closer attention to. :p

However, the 4 megs of VRam still gives developers fits from time to time, especially when recoding games for it. The lack of room for textures means they sometimes get stripped off, leaving graphics reminiscent of the Nintendo 64. In many ways, the Nintendo GameCube is a much more advanced and developer friendly console. By the way, the Dreamcast is referred to by one developer as the most underrated console in gaming history, perhaps of all time.

And finally, I really hope for our European friends that the tidbit of a March 2007 launch date is way wrong. I think this and the NVidia RSX news bodes for a U.S. launch of November 2006. Hopefully, Sony will give us and our fellow Euros our PS3s at the same time. Sorry if you guys are the orphan outcasts yet again. :indiff:
 
Ah well, would'nt be the first time. :indiff: Still, gives extra brownie points to Microsofts roll out. But there's a good chance there'll more PS3's to go round then there were 360's.....I hope!

Also, read this - www.spong.com
Supposed confirmation the PS3 will do games in 1080p. Didn't we know this already? Not sure if it's real proof mind. Will have to see a game being displayed in 1080p before I believe it though I reckon in time it'll happen)!
 
Tenacious D - The nature of the PS2 OS is very funny. As when it boots up, all features are "loaded" so to speak, and running. However, when a game runs, many things are turned off, and essentially the OS remains as a shell with very few components running, taking up very little on the resources side, in comparison to say, a PC OS, which is very cumbersome.

As far as 4MB Vram being very little, yes, it would seem so, however, the architecture of the PS2 is very different from typical PC architecture that you are thinking of. You see, the PS2 is a "stream" machine, the bandwidth between the EE, and the CPU is very large, much like the PS3, as is the I/O speeds on the DVD drive. This is why we are able to see what we see on the PS2 with what it has. Many of the textures etc are streamed straight off of the DVD's, without the need to load it into the VRAM at all times. Many other things are streamed as well. It's the architecutre of the PS2 that makes this possible.

On your tidbits about textures getting "stripped off"...I've never had this happen to me once, not once...so I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about...and maybe you should take a run back to your 64, because I don't know of any games running in 3D that look anything like the 64...soo yea....


Slackbladder - Nice bits, and no, 1080p is NOT confirmed for all games. The only thing that is "confirmed" is that All games coming from Sony (more than likely first party) will be at a minimum of 720p capable. I do not see any troulbes with all developers doing this, however.

Also, keep in mind, many developers will avoid using 1080p early on, as there is very little incentive for them to do so. Very few TV's are capable of 1080p, and those system resources could be better spent in other places as developers will be learning new hardware and will need to take advantage of every extra drop of power they can get early on.


Also, I see a Sept. release possible, however, I feel as though Sony will launch closer to Oct/Nov time frame, with a Feb/Mar release in the EU.

Sure, they might lose a few sales to the 360, but it's hardly going to be anything to hurt Sony...and Sony is going to attempt to make sure they have enough Units to go around, avoiding a mass shortage will mean kudo's for Sony, and many gamers will appreciate that.
 
That whole HDR/AA thing doesn't make any sense to me. All it is is a change in the lighting limitations. I don't see any reason whatsoever why it would have to be rendered any differently than any other type of scene. Unless they've got a very different idea of what HDR is than I do.
 
Jedi2016
That whole HDR/AA thing doesn't make any sense to me. All it is is a change in the lighting limitations. I don't see any reason whatsoever why it would have to be rendered any differently than any other type of scene. Unless they've got a very different idea of what HDR is than I do.


If you're referring to the fact that HDR and AA can't be done in the same scene, it's just because of hardware limitations. Fact is, HDR uses an amazing amount of horsepower to generate, because the scene has to be rendered in various pass through's in order to acheive multiple lights and darks, but the end result is something much closer to what they eye is capable of seeing without using "artificial" lighting (textures that are created to look as if shadows are cast on them, etc).

Then you've got AA, which needs it's own frame buffer as well. The problem is, it is very difficult, if the scene is complicated (which I assume most will be on next gen hardware) to do multiple pass through's for both AA and HDR, while maintaining a decent frame rate. THe frame buffer would have to be huge, and require a lot of memory in order to do it effeciently.


Now, this is just MY take on it, as to why I think this is an issue, lol, but I'm sure someone knows much better than I do, and we'll all find out soon enough.
 
tha_con, it's been discussed by developers. It's not something you'll necessarily catch. Specifically with games like Gran Turismo 4. If you have a good TV, you'll see a very faint seeries of concentric circles in the center of your TV screen. These are "increasing areas of interest," as you'll be focusing on the middle of the screen while racing. Textures and other graphic details are scavenged from areas further out of the circles, and most of the detail is put in the center circle. This is most visible when driving into the sun and the sunlight reflects off the road surface. However they worked the graphics so that the detail seems very consistent from area to area. And the Capcom Resident Evil team said that the PS2 didn't give them enough room for all the graphic details they could do with ease on the GameCube, so details like textures would have to be greatly simplified or left off.

This might be why the lush last gen games like Gran Turismo 4 and Devil May Cry 3 cause some PS2s to break down. Evidently the constant high content data shuffling is hard on the console.

I love my PS2 to death, but the developers really have to pinch every bit of horsepower they can to make the games look as good as they do, and I just hope that the PS3 has none of those type of shortcomings.
 
7 years ago i was blown away by the Bouncer tech demo. 7 years from now there will be new things to have gripes about.

I love my PS2 to death, but the developers really have to pinch every bit of horsepower they can to make the games look as good as they do, and I just hope that the PS3 has none of those type of shortcomings.

I remember someone from sony even said they were baffled by the game code some ps2 developers were using for their games. and these same games, some not all wont work on the redesigned slim ps2 for that reason.
 
tha_con
If you're referring to the fact that HDR and AA can't be done in the same scene, it's just because of hardware limitations. Fact is, HDR uses an amazing amount of horsepower to generate, because the scene has to be rendered in various pass through's in order to acheive multiple lights and darks, but the end result is something much closer to what they eye is capable of seeing without using "artificial" lighting (textures that are created to look as if shadows are cast on them, etc).

Then you've got AA, which needs it's own frame buffer as well. The problem is, it is very difficult, if the scene is complicated (which I assume most will be on next gen hardware) to do multiple pass through's for both AA and HDR, while maintaining a decent frame rate. THe frame buffer would have to be huge, and require a lot of memory in order to do it effeciently.


Now, this is just MY take on it, as to why I think this is an issue, lol, but I'm sure someone knows much better than I do, and we'll all find out soon enough.

They must be seeing HDR differently than I do, then.. hehe.

To me, HDR is simply a removal of the previous limitation in terms of lighting and reflections.

Basically, in a current-gen console, the total illumination for a scene is limited to 100%. This includes everything from lights to reflections to specular highlights. At no point can any of those values go higher than 100%.. the machine simply isn't designed to cope with it. This is why the lighting and shading in many current-gen games looks very "flat".

Next-gen consoles, on the other hand, don't have this limitation. If they want to make the sun at 250% intensity, they can. That alone is going to add a HUGE amount of realism to games.. far more than people are expecting, I think. And it doesn't really require any extra oomph.. I simply don't see why they have to drastically change the way scenes are rendered just to accomodate a larger range of displayable colors. HDR isn't near as complicated as a lot of people seem to think. And Cell in particular is uniquely suited for doing this. So's the RSX.. that's what all that floating-point power will be good for.

AA, I can understand needs a frame buffer. But it depends on how it's done. There are different ways of doing AA.. if they think outside the box of the standard FSAA that's been around for years, they might find ways to get all this stuff to work. They could use multi-pass AA with adaptive sampling, or simply render the scene larger and shrink it down. Even Hollywood does that on occasion.

If they stop treating these games as mere games, and start treating them like real-time CGI, they'll be able to do a hell of a lot more with it.
 
Tenacious D
tha_con, it's been discussed by developers. It's not something you'll necessarily catch. Specifically with games like Gran Turismo 4. If you have a good TV, you'll see a very faint seeries of concentric circles in the center of your TV screen. These are "increasing areas of interest," as you'll be focusing on the middle of the screen while racing. Textures and other graphic details are scavenged from areas further out of the circles, and most of the detail is put in the center circle. This is most visible when driving into the sun and the sunlight reflects off the road surface. However they worked the graphics so that the detail seems very consistent from area to area. And the Capcom Resident Evil team said that the PS2 didn't give them enough room for all the graphic details they could do with ease on the GameCube, so details like textures would have to be greatly simplified or left off.

This might be why the lush last gen games like Gran Turismo 4 and Devil May Cry 3 cause some PS2s to break down. Evidently the constant high content data shuffling is hard on the console.

I love my PS2 to death, but the developers really have to pinch every bit of horsepower they can to make the games look as good as they do, and I just hope that the PS3 has none of those type of shortcomings.
I'm sorry, I'd love to take this post whole heartedly, but it's just not possible.

If you can find me ONE screen shot, or piece of "evidence" to show me where a texture has been "left off" I'll gladly retract my statements. But what it looks like to me, is that you're largely missing the point of one developers comment, and taking it slightly out of context.

Textures may be "simplified" which means detail is reduced, quality is reduced, and then it is compressed in order to make it "fit" in the VRAM when streaming and going through the frame buffer then output to the TV, but I have never, not once, ever, seen a polygon just show up without a texture.

And my TV is amazing, 50" Samsung DLP, and ask LaBounti, I play games entirely too much, way too much even. I still have not seen any evidence of this.

Developers may say that they work with lower resolution textures, or "dumbed down" textures, but to say that on occasion textures just don't show up because of limited VRAM? No, I've never heard of this.
 
Jedi2016
They must be seeing HDR differently than I do, then.. hehe.

To me, HDR is simply a removal of the previous limitation in terms of lighting and reflections.

Basically, in a current-gen console, the total illumination for a scene is limited to 100%. This includes everything from lights to reflections to specular highlights. At no point can any of those values go higher than 100%.. the machine simply isn't designed to cope with it. This is why the lighting and shading in many current-gen games looks very "flat".

Next-gen consoles, on the other hand, don't have this limitation. If they want to make the sun at 250% intensity, they can. That alone is going to add a HUGE amount of realism to games.. far more than people are expecting, I think. And it doesn't really require any extra oomph.. I simply don't see why they have to drastically change the way scenes are rendered just to accomodate a larger range of displayable colors. HDR isn't near as complicated as a lot of people seem to think. And Cell in particular is uniquely suited for doing this. So's the RSX.. that's what all that floating-point power will be good for.

AA, I can understand needs a frame buffer. But it depends on how it's done. There are different ways of doing AA.. if they think outside the box of the standard FSAA that's been around for years, they might find ways to get all this stuff to work. They could use multi-pass AA with adaptive sampling, or simply render the scene larger and shrink it down. Even Hollywood does that on occasion.

If they stop treating these games as mere games, and start treating them like real-time CGI, they'll be able to do a hell of a lot more with it.

HDR is not simply the controlling of lighting through the measure of brightness.

What HDR consists of is the range of visable detail through dratically different lighting situations.

If you're into photography, it is much easier to understand, but think of it like this.

If you take a picture of a sunset, then you can only have 1 of 2 possible results with one capture, you can have the detail of the sun and a few colors from the sky, but when you do, the landscape and clouds will often be "blacked out" because the apeture is too small to capture enough light to get the detail for everything else.

If you take a picture with the apeture at a larger setting, then you will get more detail in the landscape and in clouds, however, the sun will be "blown out" (this is a common term in photography, it's when there is little detail and it's just a huge bright/white mass that lacks any detail whatsoever). These are the only two possible results.

What HDR does, is "merge" the two results, creating detail in both the light and dark area's, without having harsh shadows or washed out brights. In order for this to be possible, multiple renders are needed (passthrough's). This is done and the images are combined and usually kept in the frame buffer afterwards. After that they are sent to your TV, of course it all happens very quickly.

THe problem occurs, when you need to do BOTH HDR and AA. You see, the frame buffer is so big, and cannot handle both tasks at the same time. As of right now, in order to do both effectively in hardware, it would require you to have a frame buffer of roughly 256MB, with your total available memory capacity peaking at around 1GB...if the PS3 had prices like these, it would be unaffordable as a console to many people, lol.

So, yes, there are way's to do it in software, however, once you hit 720p or 1080i, you're really negating the need for 'true' AA, and you can cut a few corners without harsh consequences.
 
Back