Purists racing in cockpit view vs exterior views

  • Thread starter Paulzx
  • 346 comments
  • 41,543 views
Scaff
Now as for why I find it harder (and I do like that my subjective view is somehow wrong), car movement is wrong from a driving perspective for me in chase cam, and that doesn't at all gel with wheel input.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. Somehow I get a lot more intuitive feedback of the cars angle vs direction from cockpit / hood/bumber cameras. I do use cockpit as it feels more immersive even though i miss the sense of speed and accuracy of bumbercam. Then again in bumbercam driving bumber to bumber one cant see anything..

In GTS cockpit i do feel like a race horse with eye patches when trying to race door to door. I just haven't grown in to using radar yet. Id rather race with my hud off.

Maybe they could add a "look at apex" type of "look at the car next to you" -option, where drivers view in cockpit would turn slightly to see more of the side window and passenger mirror when theres someone very close.

Or why not variable degree of "look left/right" where one could set it to just 10-15° instead of the usual 90° owl effect.
 
I personally always use the cockpit view, simply because for me it is the most fun way to play. I don't really mind what views other use :).

There are the occasional exceptions, where the cockpit view is extremely limited, like the Citröen Gr.4 / Gr.3 and the Nissan Gr.1, but I just simply enjoy the game more using the cockpit view, and therefore I stick to it 95% of the time :)

EDIT: In those instances when I don't use the cockpit I use the roof cam, which is admittedly very good with a good sense of where you are on the track.
 
Crazybutt198
You're insinuating I want to be racist. I am making a point which happens to have a powerful comparison.
Click to expand...

Tell me how comparing Me and anything I've said to Hitler is not racist.
Instead of having a conversation about the topic you decide to throw out personal attacks insinuating I'm like one of the most sickest people in history.
 
This has gotten out of hand. I never said you are sick and I am not attacking you for your views. This is a comment that was never meant to offend anyone. I am not a racist.I can only apologise if I had offended you and anyone else on the forum and will draw a line under this.
 
Paulzx
This is possibly the one thing that takes the shine off this game for me, because I'm more of a sim racing purist (and I know there are some others on here too), I drive every car from cockpit view. It's authentic, immersive, and this game in particular offers probably the best visually modelled cockpit views. I've been racing cockpit view for many years so it's quite instinctive. I know I sacrifice a small amount of time against others this way but generally I can hold my own easily. When it comes to the faster players out there, it does become a bit uncompetitive though, and most of the opposition do not race in this view because the general online mentality is to gain maximum advantage over any other factor.

People I race with have said they have tried cockpit view but can't get used to it. This is probably because too many alternative views are offered. I know GT Sport isn't exactly a hardcore sim but back in the day when Geoff Crammond released his F1 games, there was ONLY cockpit view, and everyone had to use it. That may be too much to deal with for todays gamers but very least we should have an option to lock the view in a lobby like Project Cars does, and offer bigger rewards to those who use this view, to encourage more people to play the way it should be played.

I know some will say they want to be allowed to use what ever view they want etc etc but frankly it's way too easy with an external view but because most people use that, it eventually forces us all to, if you really want to compete, and that is unfortunate I think because it kind of renders the cockpit view as pointless.

It's just my personal thing at the end of the day because I feel that cockpit view isn't really catered for, for players that want to use it - against other players using it because the masses are all using bumper view or the dial view. How many real life racing drivers sit on the bonnet of their cars or on the roof to drive...of course you would get a better view, but it's bit bogus really, it just feels like an acrcade game to me in those views.

If you could lock it, or there were lobby's just for cockpit view, you would know everyone has the same deal. I know the more sim orientated players will sympathise with me on this.
Click to expand...
Its incredibly selfish to impose your way of playing on everyone else. Most people simply go with the view that gets them the fastest time. Chase cam is my favorite view, but I race in 1st person view because I'm fastest their. Actually I would probably be fastest in cockpit with the correct wheel and chair set up ect. If your using a controller or dont have a proper wheel set up cockpit view is pointless imo.
 
Rinsky
This thread wasn't started as a debate between what view is better than the other. @Paulzx main question was who would like to see what driving views you could force upon players in the lobbies. No different than it is for the tires you run or the assist you use now.
Alot of us see cockpit cam as being the hardest of the bunch and would like to see it added as a choice for another level of difficulty in the lobbies.
Sport Mode can stay the arcade style of racing that people seem to like but lobbies can be made more hardcore for those of us looking for more of a challenge.
1. Cockpit view only
2. Sport tires only
3. No assist
4. Full damage on
5. Penalty on Strong
6. Fuel and tire wear on
7. 30 + laps
8. HUD turned off
9. No Tuning
I would also like the option for DS4 users only and one for wheel users only.

So why some may say that GTS is not a Hardcore Race Sim the lobbies do have the choice for a much higher level of difficulty than Sport Mode will probably ever offer.
This thread is bringing out other like-minded people who feel the same and would like to see these options added.
Click to expand...
Most of what you ask for is already available as options, barring two, plus more such as slipstream, track edge grip, etc.

No HUD?
This is of course found under Driving Options, so I guess it could be incorporated to lobby options.
But ... no lap count, race position, lap times, splits to car ahead/car behind, etc?
How about fuel? Does every car have an accurate fuel gauge?
Brake bias change when tyres are worn?
Or is it a case of some HUD, just not all?

And driving view.
Seems fair if that's what the lobby owner chooses.
I don't get why proponents of this idea don't make a thread with a clear, easy to understand title, and a poll.
If people want ideas/changes like this to be seen by people who may have an influence in the direction the game heads, then make it plainly obvious what you want.
 
I have tried several types of camera, my times do not change but the view of the cockpit hinders me from defending myself from attackers, but i like to play like that and i leave everyone with their taste.
 
ColinNZ
I think people need to be honest with themselves regarding the nature of Gran Turismo. It is the flagship racing game on Playstation. It is designed to sell PS4s and to be played fully on a DS4. It is not an arcade racer; it is not a hardcore sim. But within the game there is the ability to cater for fans of both genres.

Sport mode is designed to be played by everyone. The game itself does not care what pov you are using, MT or AT, controller or wheel etc. It just tries to match you up with people it thinks you will have a close race with. Quite a lot of people seem to be enjoying this.

But lobbies are what make the online part of this game shine. They mean that people are not bound by what Sport has to offer that day. They also allow you to organise whatever race/series you want with a group of like-minded people. Do you want a series of 50 lap races with a certain set of rules ... ORGANISE IT YOURSELF! That's what the online racing and leagues section of this site is for.

Gran Turismo cannot be a hardcore sim, if it was it would never be able to sell enough copies to stay afloat. But it does offer the tools to those who want to use it as one.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with your observation about the flagship game. You're right it is a game for the masses and therefore not targeted at sim player like project cars 2 is, but when you say you can set up lobbies however you like - you can't if you want to race with like minded cockpit drivers, that was my whole point. In project cars 2 you have control over all that but it's not available in GT Sport
 
It's a matter of perspective simulation. Under the current circumstances, unless head tracking is taken into account, the cockpit view is still not accurately simulated in any racing game. I see no reason for purists to defend the stance that it's the only way to drive. Really, the cockpit view is middling for me because of this issue. Your point of focus is settled, but it's fixed, and you have to rely on artificial factors to gauge your peripheral surroundings. Helmet view is another story, but GT Sport doesn't have this camera view.
 
This has been interesting to say the least. What surprised me the most is how many people have supported my view, so there are a lot of players who play the game using more realistic settings and views, which means the game should offer more control for that. It has no detriment to others who don't like the extra difficulty because they can carry on as before. There seems to have been some confusion for the people who think we're trying to change the way they play the game, but some people get confused easily I suppose.

What didn't surprise me is some of the lame remarks defending a more arcade style of play. If the game catered for both styles of player equally then I would have no problem with that but clearly some people just want to use the easiest ways of playing the game and obviously can't adapt to a more realistic style of play. I get that, not everyone is a sim racer at heart, but better to admit that than just try and attack those who are.

My real point was that at the moment, the sim drivers are forced to change the way they play - in custom lobby's, because they can't force cockpit view. If you want to compete against the fastest drivers fairly, you should all be using the game the same way, fair and square. If you're not bothered about competing then so be it, but despite some of the questionable replies in this thread, if you are racing the best guys, you don't want to be giving them an advantage of a faster and better view point. We can lock it in other games, we should be able to do it with this game and enjoy the potential of the game a bit better. Arcade racers can carry on as before.

I have been racing cockpit view in every game that offered it for the last 20 odd years. It is totally possible to race like that, safely and accurately - if you want to and you're good enough to do it but in open custom lobbies that I want to host, I should be able to make sure anyone who wants that extra realistic challenge has to play by the same rules. It should be an option.
 
Paulzx
*Snip

My real point was that at the moment, the sim drivers are forced to change the way they play - in custom lobby's, because they can't force cockpit view. If you want to compete against the fastest drivers fairly, you should all be using the game the same way, fair and square. If you're not bothered about competing then so be it, but despite some of the questionable replies in this thread, if you are racing the best guys, you don't want to be giving them an advantage of a faster and better view point. We can lock it in other games, we should be able to do it with this game and enjoy the potential of the game a bit better. Arcade racers can carry on as before.

*Snip
Click to expand...
You really should drop this assertion that anyone who doesn't use cockpit view is an "Arcade racer".
It isn't doing you any favours.
 
Crazybutt198
This has gotten out of hand. I never said you are sick and I am not attacking you for your views. This is a comment that was never meant to offend anyone. I am not a racist.I can only apologise if I had offended you and anyone else on the forum and will draw a line under this.
Click to expand...

I accept your apology. I seen it as an attack on me but I believe after reading this that was not your intention.

I also apologize for calling you a racist.
I'm a very easy person to get along with.

Tassie_tiger
Most of what you ask for is already available as options, barring two, plus more such as slipstream, track edge grip, etc.

No HUD?
This is of course found under Driving Options, so I guess it could be incorporated to lobby options.
But ... no lap count, race position, lap times, splits to car ahead/car behind, etc?
How about fuel? Does every car have an accurate fuel gauge?
Brake bias change when tyres are worn?
Or is it a case of some HUD, just not all?

And driving view.
Seems fair if that's what the lobby owner chooses.
I don't get why proponents of this idea don't make a thread with a clear, easy to understand title, and a poll.
If people want ideas/changes like this to be seen by people who may have an influence in the direction the game heads, then make it plainly obvious what you want.
Click to expand...

Yes i know most of what I listed is already available with the exceptions of a few things. I was just showing how difficult you can or could make a race.

As far as the HUD you can leave the race info at the top while turning off the bottom half.
Good question on if the gauges in the car are accurate. That's kinda the challenge and what makes it difficult because you really don't know. After all this is all done in the lobbies so nothing is really lost if something does not work out. It's all in fun and not a serious competition in most lobbies.
 
Last edited:
Rinsky
I accept your apology. I seen it as an attack on me but I believe after reading this that was not your intention.

I also apologize for calling you a racist.
I'm a very easy person to get along with.
Click to expand...

Respect

Johnnypenso
First Hitler now elitists. One more and you win the flame baiting trifecta:lol:
Click to expand...

If you're trying you hand at flame baiting yourself. You are out of luck. I am done with this. I was stupid yes. I apologised. Now give it a rest.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ColinNZ
As for me, I'll continue to play the game using the bumper cam, as I have since 1998.
Click to expand...

"As for me, I'll continue to play offline with the AI like I have since 1998." ;)

SleezyBigSlim
If your using a controller or dont have a proper wheel set up cockpit view is pointless imo.
Click to expand...

I use a DS4 and my lap times with bumper cam and cockpit view are equivalent. Though if I attempted serious time trial times with cockpit I bet I could be faster than bumper, as cockpit view gives me better spatial awareness of where my wheels are in relation to track edges.

It's really only in multiplayer races that cockpit view suffers, as Polyphony have failed to give cockpit drivers the same racing awareness tools that bumper cam gets.
 
ColinNZ
Seems to me that the purists just need to get together and open a lobby (like the rest of us do when we want to race using specific parameters). As for me, I'll continue to play the game using the bumper cam, as I have since 1998.
Click to expand...

The gt purists view of choice for 20 years
 
Chase cam. Cockpit views in all racing games strip you of peripheral vision / Depth . Chase cam doesn't . In fact it gives me more sense of space than driving a real car . The only car Iv driven in real life where I don't feel partially blinded is my First gen RX-7 . My 78 mach 1 mustang has a HUGE hood and I have trouble judging where it ends . My 2010 Sentra SER has huge blind spots . Now imagine a game where I can't even see the damn side mirrors look out back . It would be pretty awesome if devs included two screen on the side much like GTS includes the rear mirror in bumper cam . Dedicate 10% of the screen to Left right mirrors . And before any one says Chase cam is useless . My top 1 times in driveclub say hi.
 
Paulzx
Please read my post properly. This is not a subjective discussion about which view is best. My point is that we have no way of making it a level playing field in private lobbies. Bumper cam is faster than cockpit even after you have it down to a fine art. We might be only talking tenths here but when you're racing the fastest guys, it's still an advantage that can only be equalised by using the same view. It's much more satisfying racing equally, viewpoint and driver aids. That is the real test.
Click to expand...
What, so you think that if everyone uses the same view it's an even playing field? Well no, it's not an even playing field because those who are used to bumper cam will beat those who normally use the exterior camera. I shouldn't be forced to use a camera view I am not comfortable with, because at the end of the day, driving skill is what determines the winner. Not camera view.

Paulzx
What didn't surprise me is some of the lame remarks defending a more arcade style of play. If the game catered for both styles of player equally then I would have no problem with that but clearly some people just want to use the easiest ways of playing the game and obviously can't adapt to a more realistic style of play. I get that, not everyone is a sim racer at heart, but better to admit that than just try and attack those who are.
Click to expand...
That's not how it works mate. Saying that you have to admit to playing the "easiest" way is nothing more than shaming those who don't share your opinion. You aren't the one to dictate how people should act; everyone plays differently. The view which is best is the one that you feel the most comfortable with, it has nothing to do with gaining an advantage. If what you're saying is correct, I would never win a race because I use the exterior camera. But that is wrong, because I've won 44 races in Sport Mode - always using the exterior camera. Can you answer that for me?
 
CLowndes888
What, so you think that if everyone uses the same view it's an even playing field? Well no, it's not an even playing field because those who are used to bumper cam will beat those who normally use the exterior camera. I shouldn't be forced to use a camera view I am not comfortable with, because at the end of the day, driving skill is what determines the winner. Not camera view.


That's not how it works mate. Saying that you have to admit to playing the "easiest" way is nothing more than shaming those who don't share your opinion. You aren't the one to dictate how people should act; everyone plays differently. The view which is best is the one that you feel the most comfortable with, it has nothing to do with gaining an advantage. If what you're saying is correct, I would never win a race because I use the exterior camera. But that is wrong, because I've won 44 races in Sport Mode - always using the exterior camera. Can you answer that for me?
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised you won 44 races like that. You've probably got all the driver aids on too and auto gears lol
 
Paulzx
This has been interesting to say the least. What surprised me the most is how many people have supported my view, so there are a lot of players who play the game using more realistic settings and views, which means the game should offer more control for that. It has no detriment to others who don't like the extra difficulty because they can carry on as before. There seems to have been some confusion for the people who think we're trying to change the way they play the game, but some people get confused easily I suppose.

What didn't surprise me is some of the lame remarks defending a more arcade style of play. If the game catered for both styles of player equally then I would have no problem with that but clearly some people just want to use the easiest ways of playing the game and obviously can't adapt to a more realistic style of play. I get that, not everyone is a sim racer at heart, but better to admit that than just try and attack those who are.

My real point was that at the moment, the sim drivers are forced to change the way they play - in custom lobby's, because they can't force cockpit view. If you want to compete against the fastest drivers fairly, you should all be using the game the same way, fair and square. If you're not bothered about competing then so be it, but despite some of the questionable replies in this thread, if you are racing the best guys, you don't want to be giving them an advantage of a faster and better view point. We can lock it in other games, we should be able to do it with this game and enjoy the potential of the game a bit better. Arcade racers can carry on as before.

I have been racing cockpit view in every game that offered it for the last 20 odd years. It is totally possible to race like that, safely and accurately - if you want to and you're good enough to do it but in open custom lobbies that I want to host, I should be able to make sure anyone who wants that extra realistic challenge has to play by the same rules. It should be an option.
Click to expand...

You want everyone to use an idiotic view that is NOTHING like a real car. No one is forbidding you from driving on bumper cam. 2D images have zero sense of depth so in the cockpit you are more or less guessing where your wheels are. In bumper cam, you can see exactly whats on the road in front of you. In chase cam, you can see everything around you AND see how your car's body is sliding/ tilting. You are the one who needs to adapt to the competition, you basically want them to heed what YOU think is best.


If not I suggest you buy a real car and join a real track club. Or not, some people clearly want the easiest ways of racing. I get that not everyone is a real racer at heart, But it would be better to admit that than to speak as If you had the guts to drive a real vehicle, amiright?
 
I do drive a real car, ... since 1975, and have driven on real race tracks since 2004.
I race on PC in triple screens in cockpit view, with a full Fanatec compliment.
I love cockpit view with triples and VR.

When i am driving on track in real life, in my full face helmet ...
my eyeballs' own peripheral vision, plus the ability of my eyes to scan rapidly without moving my head,
plus my ability to move my head, my ability to glance at mirrors, plus my ability to move my head a few inches around in relationship to the car interior, ...
All of these things are continually painting a picture in my brain of my surroundings, the road surface, and other cars around me.

When I am driving GT Sport, I use 'bumper cam', and sometimes cockpit cam for open top cars & kart.
What is being called 'bumper cam' in GTS isn't really bumper view. It is driver's eye view, with the cockpit and car body transparent.
In this game, it is the closest thing to the image I have in my brain as I drive my car on track in real life.
When I'm on track, inside my car I do see my wheel, I see my tachometer, and my temperature gauge,
... but because of all the motion, and because of the task at hand, I don't 'see' the a-pillar and the dashboard.
Just a millisecond ago, I saw that red & white kerbing and the hole in the dirt on the wrong side of it at the apex,
and although the glovebox is now in the way, i still 'see' that apex. My brain makes my car transparent, in a way.

Cockpit view on a single screen monitor is nothing at all like that.
It is not 'more realistic', more 'hardcore', more 'sim minded', less 'arcady'. It's just not. Cut the crap.

My view is never ever that obscured or limited in a real car.
No race driver in the real world, ever, would accept racing with a black curtain covering 75% of their driver's window, and also a quarter of their windshield, and everything else on the other side. Even a prototype is not as limiting as single monitor cockpit view in game.
You cannot properly compensate with FOV in most games, on any size monitor, without seriously compromising the image at the periphery.
Forcing it in competition makes no sense.

Without triple screens or VR, cockpit view is not a good representative view to real life.

Driving from outside the car, third person is fine if you're used to it,
but as a real life driver I cannot relate, and couldn't stay on track in chase cam, or with a controller.

Anyhow, ... boki sez, "All these kids need to stop pretending cockpit cam is some kind of purity."

i-FmFvvTH.jpg

i-DsckvVv-X3.jpg
 
Last edited:
bokimoto
I do drive a real car, ... since 1975, and have driven on real race tracks since 2004.
I race on PC in triple screens in cockpit view, with a full Fanatec compliment.
I love cockpit view with triples and VR.

When i am driving on track in real life, in my full face helmet ...
my eyeballs' own peripheral vision, plus the ability of my eyes to scan rapidly without moving my head,
plus my ability to move my head, my ability to glance at mirrors, plus my ability to move my head a few inches around in relationship to the car interior, ...
All of these things are continually painting a picture in my brain of my surroundings, the road surface, and other cars around me.

When I am driving GT Sport, I use 'bumper cam', and sometimes cockpit cam for open top cars & kart.
What is being called 'bumper cam' in GTS isn't really bumper view. It is driver's eye view, with the cockpit and car body transparent.
In this game, it is the closest thing to the image I have in my brain as I drive my car on track in real life.
When I'm on track, inside my car I do see my wheel, I see my tachometer, and my temperature gauge,
... but because of all the motion, and because of the task at hand, I don't 'see' the a-pillar and the dashboard.
Just a millisecond ago, I saw that red & white kerbing and the hole in the dirt on the wrong side of it at the apex,
and although the glovebox is now in the way, i still 'see' that apex. My brain makes my car transparent, in a way.

Cockpit view on a single screen monitor is nothing at all like that.
It is not 'more realistic', more 'hardcore', more 'sim minded', less 'arcady'. It's just not. Cut the crap.

My view is never ever that obscured or limited in a real car.
No race driver in the real world, ever, would accept racing with a black curtain covering 75% of their drivers' window, and everything on the other side including a quarter of their windshield. Even a prototype is not as limiting as single monitor cockpit view in game.
You cannot properly compensate with FOV in most games, on any size monitor, without seriously compromising the image at the periphery.
Forcing it in competition makes no sense.

Without triple screens or VR, cockpit view is not a good representative view to real life.

Driving from outside the car, third of person is fine if you're used to it,
but as a real life driver I cannot relate, and couldn't stay on track in chase cam, or with a controller.

Anyhow, ... boki sez, "All these kids need to stop pretending cockpit cam is some kind of purity."

i-FmFvvTH.jpg
Click to expand...

This is a great post. I am probably on the opposite end of the spectrum. I have never driven a real car. I have only ever used a pad to go racing in since the early 90's. I play all manner of driving/racing games from Mario kart to formula 1 games and everything in-between. Gts is a game in-between the lines. Not a full on sim or arcade game,unless you want it to be.
 

Latest Posts

Back