Race Soft Tires....

[911_RS]

Can someone explain the reasoning behind the need to ban soft compound tires in online racing...every racer I know IRL, even the weekend warriors, uses them...

Why try to drive without them????

 

[TouringBubble]

Harder tire compounds let better drivers shine, as the poor drivers will goof up without the tires to save them. But, I think it's more to do with the people banning them just not being able to be as fast as others.

 

[takl23]

It tends to even the playing field. The races tend to be much closer from what I've found.

 

[911_RS]

It just seems silly to me that a car that was built for slicks can't use them.....

 

[3thanol]

Cannot see what people have against soft tyres, if you have spent a lot of money on the car I would want the best tyres to put that power to the road and make best use of my car. Racing is about winning and lap times and going faster and faster, why would you want to handicap yourself and slow yourself down.

People go on like they are on public roads. comforts and hard tyres. Going on about how only good drivers can drive on hards, rubbish. All it does is make you slow down a little bit and drive within those tyres limits, any tyre you can loose it, they all have their limits that when exceeded you spin or crash.

Imagine going proper racing and handicapping yourself with under par tyres because you think it makes yourself shine, your team would sack you.

when you race it is about trying to get everything out of your car and when you have many laps it is then about trading off grip to give you endurance/strategy. F1 etc, lap time difference is measured in milliseconds, and people want hard tyres for 1-3 lap races, think some people are missing the point of what racing is about.

Look at me, my car is tuned to perfection and I am going to slow/bottleneck it so I can say I can handle the car,, Fantastic good for you!

Personally I'll use any tyre but if the car is set up for power laps with short gearing etc. I wouldn't be so pompus and say people who drive on a certain tyre cannot drive!!

 

[brazo]

Racing softs are suited to the higher power cars but I think its easy to 'over' tyre some of the cars. Using Racing softs on lower HP cars can make tuning irrelevant as the racing softs can hide/compensate for a bad tune.

 

[slick1ru2]

Come race with us at the Le Mans! Club every Saturday. We allow soft tires, just like Formula 1 racing does and all the other forms of racing. We also allow traction, etc.. If the cars handle different online then offline, who is to say what is more REAL? The link is in my sig.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

It tends to even the playing field.

How is everyone on RH tires any more even than everyone on RS tires?

 

[slick1ru2]

How is everyone on RH tires any more even than everyone on RS tires?

Exactly. Tire snobs, lol. If you want the best drivers to shine, put everyone on racing soft but those that think they are the best drivers. Put them on racing hard. THAT is how you tell who is truly great. Or put everyone on CH.

 

[911_RS]

Come race with us at the Le Mans! Club every Saturday. We allow soft tires, just like Formula 1 racing does and all the other forms of racing. We also allow traction, etc.. If the cars handle different online then offline, who is to say what is more REAL? The link is in my sig.

Sounds like fun!

 

[rileyra]

Just go to a different room where people aren't so uppity.

 

[qczhao]

It's because there is too much grip on racing softs. It's an unrealistic amount of grip.

It basically neutralises many corners where you can just apply full power and steer, whereas in real life it would be a delicate balance of the car on the throttle and feeling for how much grip you have.

Racing softs essentially put your car on rails, it masks a poor driver by giving him enough grip that he won't spin out even if he applies full lock and full throttle out of a corner. That's really never the case in racing and real life (except the fast corners where aerodynamic effects come into play)

I would say that racing softs actually does make the field closer, cause skilled drivers shine less when everyone else gets given bigger margins to play with.

But hey, each to their own.

 

[TouringBubble]

I can easily over drive racing softs on most cars over 400 hp if I tried. I don't think it's unrealistic from the level of grip I've seen actual race tires produce. The mechanical grip that a really good set of tires can add is amazing.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It's because there is too much grip on racing softs. It's an unrealistic amount of grip.

/ Thread

I have maybe a handful of cars in my garage with racing slicks. One of them, my time attack GT-R uses racing hards. The others, full race cars that I hardly ever drive, are probably on the same tires but I don't know because I haven't driven them.

It's all about the sport tires for me, especially for street cars.

Edit: The Ford Lightning (seen in my avatar) ran that Nurburgring lap on Racing softs only to prove that it could be done. Immediately afterwords I switched back to Sport Softs which is how I drive the truck 99% of the time. (and with 690 HP)

 

[GrahamTurismo]

It's because there is too much grip on racing softs. It's an unrealistic amount of grip.

In A-Spec, sure. But there's a 12 page thread full of people who will definitely tell you that the handling/tires/lag are not very congruent online with how things should be. If a car that should be able to take a given turn at full throttle on sport tires can't even manage to take the same turn at full throttle using racing tires online; then I'd say the stickiest tires are what we need to make up for the inconsistent handling physics. I for one can definitely tell a difference, as it feels like RS tires online sometimes don't even handle as well as SS tires offline in a same car/same track situation.

It basically neutralises many corners where you can just apply full power and steer, whereas in real life it would be a delicate balance of the car on the throttle and feeling for how much grip you have.

In lower powered cars sure, and I have no objection to restricting RS tires in a race full of <300hp cars. But anything over 500hp is practically undrivable online without RS tires, even with very delicate throttle modulation. JGTC cars for instance, are purpose built race cars... and even in a banked corner where the tires should be loaded well and the speed is sufficient enough to provide plenty of downforce the car is still sometimes more of a handful than the same car/same corner using SS when offline.

Racing softs essentially put your car on rails, it masks a poor driver by giving him enough grip that he won't spin out even if he applies full lock and full throttle out of a corner. That's really never the case in racing and real life (except the fast corners where aerodynamic effects come into play)

THAT... is actually what SRF does. And yeah, SRF is absolutely the easy button of GT5.

I would say that racing softs actually does make the field closer, cause skilled drivers shine less when everyone else gets given bigger margins to play with.

Now that makes plenty of sense. And again, SRF does the exact same thing... I know for a fact that I am VERY quick with a specific car on the Ring due to having done so many laps. My friends (who are all pretty quick) and I were doing a 1 make race one night and some kid was in there and while I was 15 seconds ahead of the rest of the field by the end of lap 1 he was an additional 30 seconds ahead of me. Turns out he was using SRF of course, so we ran another single lap right after that race with all the aids off... naturally, he ran off course within the first 30 seconds and was constantly falling behind the rest of us.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

It's all about the sport tires for me, especially for street cars.

Turbo posted while I was typing my diatribe. This is what I meant... any NON race car on race tires is far too unrealistic. And while race cars should be able to use ALL the racing tires at their disposal for pit strategy reasons, the higher HP cars just do not handle properly enough online with anything other than soft.

 

[qczhao]

Well at the end of the day none of us have any clue how it actually feels to drive a 500+hp JGTC car, we can only say how we think it should feel.

However, I do know for a fact that in one online SuperGT race the laptimes recorded at Fuji by the players on RS tyres were like 3-4 seconds faster than laptimes I found from onboard footage on youtube for real SuperGT cars.

Cars with lots of HP are definately driveable - I have done 3 races now on Racing Hard tyres using SuperGT cars and they've been totally manageable.

 

[Exorcet]

Cannot see what people have against soft tyres, if you have spent a lot of money on the car I would want the best tyres to put that power to the road and make best use of my car. Racing is about winning and lap times and going faster and faster, why would you want to handicap yourself and slow yourself down.

Racing isn't about going faster. Every race that isn't F1 shows that. Even F1 shows that because things that would make the cars faster are banned.

Racing is about being faster than your competition. Tires are part of the competition. Do you want a competition that's all about maintaining speed (Racing Soft) or about keeping the car under control (comfort hard). It's an arbitrary option.

But anything over 500hp is practically undrivable online without RS tires

That is hugely exaggerated. Even if you were just trying to make a point, that's not right. Any tire is fine for online. I've hosted and raced a few comfort tire races in street cars with 600+ hp and it was some of the best racing that the game has offered.

I agree that the tire modeling in GT5 is not perfect, but raising grip to the max doesn't mean you're any closer to reality. The only thing that will fix issue like grip is a better tire model, not better in game tires.

All of that said, there's nothing wrong with Racing Softs. It just gets boring and annoying when every room online is using Racing Softs, especially if you're looking for a road car race.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Maybe because many like lower grip tires?? From my experience from gt5p online the lower grip tires give more close racing, movements of the car become less erratic and more realistic corner speed If the racers can handle it of course

 

[GrahamTurismo]

However, I do know for a fact that in one online SuperGT race the laptimes recorded at Fuji by the players on RS tyres were like 3-4 seconds faster than laptimes I found from onboard footage on youtube for real SuperGT cars.

Thanks for the info. I know that the RS tires are a bit overdone, but I didn't realize they were that far off from reality. I am curious though, are those people using TCS? And I'm not going to claim that I know what I'm talking about, so I'm also going to ask if they use TCS in the SuperGT series. My gut says that in true racing like SuperGT there are no assists, and I find it extremely difficult to control those cars on RH tires with no assists. I'm also not a race car driver, so there's that.

That is hugely exaggerated. Even if you were just trying to make a point, that's not right. Any tire is fine for online. I've hosted and raced a few comfort tire races in street cars with 600+ hp and it was some of the best racing that the game has offered.

I agree that the tire modeling in GT5 is not perfect, but raising grip to the max doesn't mean you're any closer to reality. The only thing that will fix issue like grip is a better tire model, not better in game tires.

I kind of was trying to make a point. But as I just mentioned, I'm no race driver... so 500hp cars being nigh uncontrollable for me is probably exact. That actually does sound challenging and fun. Maybe I'll get a few buddies together for a JGTC race on CH tires for a good laugh. 👍

 

[qczhao]

Well the online race was run with all assists off.

In the real world there are no assists either

 

[slick1ru2]

Well the online race was run with all assists off.

In the real world there are no assists either

The cars act different online then offline. Which one of those two very different race characterisitcs is like the "real world"? In the real world, street cars come equipped with traction control and stability control to make them go faster. Some cars, like the EVO 10, have a traction control system that electronically control each wheel so they could, depending on conditions, be all at different speeds.

In this game, people turn off traction control because they think its real racing and they can go faster. In real life, race drivers have illegally used traction control because they can go faster with it, its an advantage. If people are going faster in races (not drag races) in GT5 with it off, then its not realistic.


This article will explain that since the electronic means of traction control is banned in racing because it gives drivers an edge, that other legal things like soft tires are used instead.

http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0907_race_car_traction_control/index.html

 

[3thanol]

So real racing cars are limited to keep them all within a limit, so that they are roughly all even apart from a few individual touches/different method of engineering something like wings, engines, gear ratios etc in short, I more than understand this and agree with it. I can see why certain types of motor sport like drifting etc would want tyres with less traction, but if rules allow slicks and it fits with your racing stratagy, if its a long or short race, what is bad about them. It is a game it is far from being 100% realistic.
If rules allowed in any given race online depending on length, I would choose RS if I had a big hp car, I would be looking for an edge, not an excuss to wave my willy and say look at me im on hard tyres, I am so much better than you.

As for 300hp on RS, I have a 328hp car they weighs 625kg and is will spin on RS in A spec let alone online, you forget car weight has an effect on power as my little car is only 300hp but is in effect 520ish hp per ton, more than most powered Japanese cars.

Let all just agree to disagree.

 

[xchristox]

Why no racing softs? Because it's boring, period. I get bored out of my mind when finding ANOTHER lobby where they're racing the Nissan Super Leggera with racing softs that result in insane amounts of grip. If I wanted that much grip, I would play some freakin' need for speed!

 

[qczhao]

The cars act different online then offline. Which one of those two very different race characterisitcs is like the "real world"? In the real world, street cars come equipped with traction control and stability control to make them go faster. Some cars, like the EVO 10, have a traction control system that electronically control each wheel so they could, depending on conditions, be all at different speeds.

In this game, people turn off traction control because they think its real racing and they can go faster. In real life, race drivers have illegally used traction control because they can go faster with it, its an advantage. If people are going faster in races (not drag races) in GT5 with it off, then its not realistic.


This article will explain that since the electronic means of traction control is banned in racing because it gives drivers an edge, that other legal things like soft tires are used instead.

http://www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0907_race_car_traction_control/index.html

First, no need to patronise me.

Secondly, you misunderstood my post.

I meant the regulations in the SuperGT prohibit forms of TC and whatnot. Since the online race series is trying to replicate SuperGT racing, it makes sense to emulate their regulations, and to try and match the real laptimes by using Racing Hard tyres (because when using Racing Soft tyres, the lap times are far too quick compared to real life, hence, they must be providing an unrealistic amount of grip).

And FYI, up until recently, traction control in road vehicles used to slow the car down because it wasn't very good and most still do. It's only in the advanced sports cars like Ferraris etc where the TC systems are "race-derived" from former F1 days that they actually improve the driver's laptimes.

The TC implemented in the game is not the same as all the hundreds of varieties of TC algorithms found in real life. It does slow the car down unnecessarily, as many people have found while doing license tests etc.

I think the point you're missing here is that people run harder compounds with less grip to better simulate real life levels of grip, rather than trying to do any sort of e-peen waving by boasting that they can drive around a ZR1 on Comfort Hards or whatever.

 

[3thanol]

Maybe it's a little bit quicker in GT because in real life you having an accident it actually hurts and cost real money, and has knock on effects for the team & sponsers. Also I have driven a few tracks and what GT does not give is all the little bumps and inaccuracys of the surface that twitch the wheel and judder the car.

On my armchair playing this game I have none of those worrys or feelings of adrenaline, so am free to drive at a pace maybe a little faster, so a few seconds may happen who knows.

Think people are getting bored of purist trying to match times & physics exactly in a game with physics & modeling that is not 100% to start with. Then telling the rest of us we cannot drive. That is what bugs me and I do like driving on any tyre, but am not arragont enough to undermine peoples driving and call mine excellent. This is the game, they are there to be used if that races rules allow end of. Slicks cover up a bad tune, how? tyres are part of a tune, Nascar, F1 try to push as close to the boundarys of their regs as possible in their tune and tech. If I go online and the rules allow and the laps is within what RS will give they will go on, why not.

 

[qczhao]

That is what bugs me and I do like driving on any tyre, but am not arragont enough to undermine peoples driving and call mine excellent. This is the game, they are there to be used if that races rules allow end of. Slicks cover up a bad tune, how? tyres are part of a tune, Nascar, F1 try to push as close to the boundarys of their regs as possible in their tune and tech. If I go online and the rules allow and the laps is within what RS will give they will go on, why not.

Puristing aside, I agree with all of this.

But I don't think that's what the OP was moaning about.

 

[Denilson]

Racing Softs does cover a bad tune IF: The driver is not good enough to push the tyres to it's limit. Every tyre has a limit, and to be really fast you need to drive on the limit of grip (the limit of grip is in direct connection to the suspentionsettings), no mather the compound. It's as hard on Racing Softs as on Comfort Hards. Just differs in laptimes. (And ofc, you might not having the best of times trying to throw a 500 ish racecar around a track on CH's )

TCS does make a car quicker IF: The driver lacks the skill to be on the limit of traction. Because in any given situation, a car can only have so much possible traction, and it's only possible to go really fast if you can stay close to that limit all the time. So if you push the car over the limit, the TCS will reduce the amount of power coming to the wheel that looses traction, making the car slow down. Simpla as..

That said: the limit is the limit.. No driving aid in the world (exept SRF ) will make a car get more grip, or change the laws of physics, hence why a car is faster without any aids, as long as you are a skilled enough driver to always drive within that limit and not over it.

And about ASM when I'm on a roll here.. I don't know if ASM is adjustable in GT5, cause I never use it. But in a M3 CSL, there is different levels of ASM: 1. standard, 2. let's the car slide a bit before interfering, 3. Slide even more (a button on the steeringwheel called "M-track mode"), 4.=OFF. I've driven this car on racetracks IRL and the car is much faster without the ASM turned on, even the "M-track mode" settings are really slowing down that car.

So no aids and Racing Softs makes the car go as fast as it possibly can as long as the driver can stay on the limit without crossing it = skill.

 

[Wolf-M]

I meant the regulations in the SuperGT prohibit forms of TC and whatnot. Since the online race series is trying to replicate SuperGT racing, it makes sense to emulate their regulations, and to try and match the real laptimes by using Racing Hard tyres (because when using Racing Soft tyres, the lap times are far too quick compared to real life, hence, they must be providing an unrealistic amount of grip).

I apologise for my sudden intervention yet I cannot resist myself pointing out a logical flaw in what you have said.

Basically, you are suggesting that purely because the laptimes in game are faster than in real the game is therefore unrealistic.

But if you think carefully, there are many factors besides possible unrealistic tire grip levels that result in this scenario. The most basic one being - drivers online have no fear for spinning out or crashing, they can take corners at full speed without worrying that a small rock or bump on the road flip their car and cause a fatal accident.

Take the ring as an example - have a look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPd0ATqvoJM&feature=related

Turn on the sound and listen to how early the driver breaks when approaching corners. Have you ever seen a driver in real life take the Flugplatz - Schwedenkreuz at full speed? I haven't, but when racing in online lobbies I very often get hit because people never slow down when approaching the left turn leading to the Aremberg (in fact the slight right turn before the left turn).

Of course, the above is said with the qualification that I've never driven a race car. Neither have most users that have posted in this thread, I believe.

SO my conclusion is that this discussion is pretty much illusory, if you want to race with RH or SH or even CH, then find one lobby that suits your taste, there is no harm in doing that, but to say that doing so offers a more realistic experience is pretty much self-deception. It probably is more akin to driving your every day car - that I don't dispute, but do you (generic term) really know how the tires behave in a real GT500 race car?

 

[Wolf-M]

And see also this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gyUCOD-tc&feature=fvw

A ZR1 doing a 7:26 - hey, I can beat that with my Lotus Elise 111R RM easily!

IMO it's not so much to do with tires than with the "aggresiveness" in game drivers have displayed when attacking the ring.