Rally racing in GT6?

[GTV0819]

Do you think so? I think Rallying is a serious weak point in the game. Apart from the sound being dull, the tracks are too wide, short and boring and the grip level and handling don't feel right at all. The cars just seem to slide across the surface rather than bite into the gravel and grip the way a rally car should.

Anyway that's just my opinion. I was hoping with the inclusion of WRC cars in GT5 that they would include some descent point to point rally stages and a proper rally championship. That whole A-Spec rally thing where you follow another car on a 50m wide road for about 2km was ridiculous

I understand your point. PD should just correct this in the future.

 

[rallymorten]

Do you think so?

Yes, I think so. Yes, particularly Toscana and GT's own course generated stages are too wide (though you can ADJUST THE WIDTH in the generator, -5 in Liege is highly recommended) , yes, the sound is dull, yes, the grip and handling may not be accurate, yes, following a car on a 50m wide track for 2km isn't exactly the way to do it, I more than many may have an idea about what rally is. I didn't say rallying in GT5 was perfectly flawless, I said they've got the basics correct, such as delayed starts and point to point. Now it's up to PD to expand on that.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Yes, I think so. Yes, particularly Toscana and GT's own course generated stages are too wide (though you can ADJUST THE WIDTH in the generator

But then the generator does not create stages, nor can rallies be created, so that isn't a proper fix.

-5 in Liege is highly recommended) , yes, the sound is dull, yes, the grip and handling may not be accurate, yes, following a car on a 50m wide track for 2km isn't exactly the way to do it, I more than many may have an idea about what rally is. I didn't say rallying in GT5 was perfectly flawless, I said they've got the basics correct, such as delayed starts and point to point. Now it's up to PD to expand on that.

Delayed starts are not a "basic" of rallying games. It is an unnecessary hindrance. Waiting for long periods before actually racing is part of any motorsport event, does it enhance the gaming experience for players to sit and wait needlessly for minutes? No.

Really, the "basics" that they got right was having point-to-point stages, and having several stages constituting a rally. It's a stretch to say that they got it "just about perfect" when really they covered the bare minimum requirements for the events to be described as rallies.

 

[rallymorten]

But then the generator does not create stages, nor can rallies be created, so that isn't a proper fix.

Delayed starts are not a "basic" of rallying games. It is an unnecessary hindrance. Waiting for long periods before actually racing is part of any motorsport event, does it enhance the gaming experience for players to sit and wait needlessly for minutes? No.

Really, the "basics" that they got right was having point-to-point stages, and having several stages constituting a rally. It's a stretch to say that they got it "just about perfect" when really they covered the bare minimum requirements for the events to be described as rallies.

Maybe the generator itself can't, but it only takes 1 sane person to find a way to do it online (the crazy person I am have found at least 3 variants of that)

Cars starting x minutes after each other IS part of rally. In fact, name me one other type of motorsport that does this, and I'll withdraw that statement.
Can it be avoided in games? Yes, it can. Does that make it less realistic? No, not necessary, rallying is essentially time trial on point to point (and, on odd occations, circle tracks).

 

[ShiftingGears]

Cars starting x minutes after each other IS part of rally. In fact, name me one other type of motorsport that does this, and I'll withdraw that statement.

My point is that any circuit racing usually involves cars lining up on the grid for several minutes before taking a warm-up lap and then lining up on the grid waiting for the lights to go out. This prolonged period of sitting on the grid and doing nothing isn't included in GT5's A-Spec mode, so why they would include prolonged periods of doing nothing at the start of each stage is inconsistent on their part. There are much better rally simulators that don't waste the player's time with redundant features, because the developers realise that the stage starts when the timer starts, not when the driver gets within 50 metres of the starting line.

Obviously waiting for other cars is part of rally, but why pick the most tedious and cumbersome part of actual rallying instead of getting anything else right? That, and I've never seen a rally where drivers are released at 20 second intervals anyway. Especially when they are driving Group A cars.

 

[Samus]

Exactly, waiting for those cars to go and then catching them up because they're so slow is nothing like real rallying. The only way you'll catch a car in real rallying is if they have an off/accident.

WRC cars are two minutes apart IIRC.

 

[rallymorten]

My point is that any circuit racing usually involves cars lining up on the grid for several minutes before taking a warm-up lap and then lining up on the grid waiting for the lights to go out. This prolonged period of sitting on the grid and doing nothing isn't included in GT5's A-Spec mode, so why they would include prolonged periods of doing nothing at the start of each stage is inconsistent on their part. There are much better rally simulators that don't waste the player's time with redundant features, because the developers realise that the stage starts when the timer starts, not when the driver gets within 50 metres of the starting line.

Obviously waiting for other cars is part of rally, but why pick the most tedious and cumbersome part of actual rallying instead of getting anything else right? That, and I've never seen a rally where drivers are released at 20 second intervals anyway. Especially when they are driving Group A cars.

I do see your point, and all I'm trying to say is, lining up to prepare for a race, of any kind, is part of it, but it's a part that can be skipped in video games. Yet that doesn't mean it can't be "alive" or "true to the sport". WRC Rally Evolved is an example of how rally games are brought to live. You'll see your car line up for the start, wait 3 seconds, and off you go, with the random opportunity of seeing DNF'd cars on the stage. Much more than that isn't needed, most rally games don't even have the last. Split times mostly do the job.

I think the 13,something seconds for the start difference is mostly a compromise. Too much larger a difference and it would be too long, whereas a lesser difference would mean they might as well have gone for the way others do.

WRC cars are two minutes apart IIRC.

That seems about right, yes.

 

[pooioo]

Do you think so? I think Rallying is a serious weak point in the game. Apart from the sound being dull, the tracks are too wide, short and boring and the grip level and handling don't feel right at all. The cars just seem to slide across the surface rather than bite into the gravel and grip the way a rally car should.

Anyway that's just my opinion. I was hoping with the inclusion of WRC cars in GT5 that they would include some descent point to point rally stages and a proper rally championship. That whole A-Spec rally thing where you follow another car on a 50m wide road for about 2km was ridiculous

Rally physics in GT5 are just a shame. They really need to stop to developp this part of the game because there are no interest at all for this weakness.

And almost the same for endurance, why there are not game based on endurance races since Test Drive on Dreamcast ?

 

[Samus]

I'm certainly of the opinion if it's not up to the quality of the competition don't do it at all, spend time on what you are good at. It's a bit like GTA V including golf and tennis, It's not as good as a proper golf/tennis game so I'd rather they hadn't wasted time on them.

 

[pooioo]

But developping rally need time and money. And for this kind of result, this investment is a terrible waste. I hope at least the experience of Kazu at Goodwood and other rally races will be profitable to GT6 or GT7 this time.

 

[rallymorten]

As it has just been debated, they have a good base to expand on now, and getting the base right is the hard part, expanding on it is where it gets easier and "profitable".

 

[ShiftingGears]

But developping rally need time and money. And for this kind of result, this investment is a terrible waste. I hope at least the experience of Kazu at Goodwood and other rally races will be profitable to GT6 or GT7 this time.

If you wanted PD to improve a feature, assuming PD could determine the profitability of individual features, you should hope that poor features cost them money, not generate profit. Because as long as they don't have some serious form of feedback system between the fans and the company, then lost revenue is really the only way they will listen.

 

[pooioo]

You don't need feedback to see that rally physics are terrible or that means you are a weak developper unable to improve by yourself your product. I understand the most important for them is getting the licences to attract more players but really, they should stop to waste this money and definitively invest this somewhere else at the moment. It's not even a question of cost/profit but simply competence. Podi should focus on what they are good.

 

[CarreraGT]

Yes, I think so. Yes, particularly Toscana and GT's own course generated stages are too wide (though you can ADJUST THE WIDTH in the generator, -5 in Liege is highly recommended) , yes, the sound is dull, yes, the grip and handling may not be accurate, yes, following a car on a 50m wide track for 2km isn't exactly the way to do it, I more than many may have an idea about what rally is. I didn't say rallying in GT5 was perfectly flawless, I said they've got the basics correct, such as delayed starts and point to point. Now it's up to PD to expand on that.

Wow, you really did mean basics. On that accord every rally game ever made got the basics right!

But yeah I don't quite understand why they save some features until they are perfect for release (i.e. re-modelled sounds...fml) but rush some things out and promise big things. WRC cars were one of the selling points of GT5 but the whole rally thing turned out to be about as good as NASCAR...

In my opinion, they would be better off sticking with what they are good at i.e. road cars and touring/sports race cars. Leave WRC and F1 and NASCAR to the dedicated series games and focus on getting the details right that really count.

I can't fathom how any new features could take precedence over getting the sound right, especially considering PD claim to be the people that "love cars". The way a car sounds is one of the key sensory experiences that makes it exciting, and is even more important in a video game where you don't feel G force etc. I really hope they come good with an update in the (not too distant) future, then I would be happy for them to work on the rally mode

 

[Roflwaffle]

Leave WRC to the dedicated series games.

i think that they should leave rally in. With F1 and NASCAR they were only integrated recently into the series and they haven't done them properly because they don't have enough cars/tracks and the physics are different, but with rally that has been in the GT franchise for a long time and they've got lots of rally cars in GT so completely removing rally from it is really ilogical. Also WRC isn't licensed it only has the cars that competed in it but no real world rally stages just the original GT ones.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

i think that they should leave rally in. With F1 and NASCAR they were only integrated recently into the series and they haven't done them properly because they don't have enough cars/tracks and the physics are different, but with rally that has been in the GT franchise for a long time and they've got lots of rally cars in GT so completely removing rally from it is really ilogical. Also WRC isn't licensed it only has the cars that competed in it but no real world rally stages just the original GT ones.

F1 unofficially has been in GT as long as WRC and Sportcar Racing, Nascar is the new kid and it is obviously being given more attention due to being the new one.

 

[sk8er913]

i think that they should leave rally in. With F1 and NASCAR they were only integrated recently into the series and they haven't done them properly because they don't have enough cars/tracks and the physics are different, but with rally that has been in the GT franchise for a long time and they've got lots of rally cars in GT so completely removing rally from it is really ilogical. Also WRC isn't licensed it only has the cars that competed in it but no real world rally stages just the original GT ones.

The question I have is, will they improve it?

 

[CarreraGT]

The question I have is, will they improve it?

Improve the rally component? I hope so. I can't see PD implementing any major improvements though, they seem to be taking a quantity over quality approach these days. Too many cars and too many racing disciplines in my opinion, they would be better off sticking with road cars and halving the car count.

A lot of work goes into standalone series games (F1, WRC) to accurately recreate AI, rules etc. and I can't see PD spending that time and money when they have so many other things to develop.

I would prefer it if they mastered the AI and sound then worked on expanding content for future iterations of the game. GT5 felt too much like a jack of all trades, master of none

 

[wallpaper42]

I want more realistic courses that aren't so wide. And instead of barriers or invisible walls I want ruts, cliffs and trees if you go off track. Dirt 3 had some good rally courses but the problem with that game is that all of the cars drive way too similar to each other.

 

[glassjaw]

The quality of the course maker with respect to rally stages will make or break rally in GT6. Rally in GT5 was awful because of the limited selection of "true" rally courses (Toscana, Chamonix, and Eiger) and the unmitigated disaster that was Gran Turismo Rally.

Just to rant for a second, GT Rally was so abysmal, it actually put me off playing GT5 for a while. Well, that and the Grand Tour special event. The stages were so bland and lifeless, they literally put me to sleep. Honestly, the game would have been better if "events" like that weren't included to begin with. Half-baked features really drag the overall experience down.

 

[CarreraGT]

The quality of the course maker with respect to rally stages will make or break rally in GT6. Rally in GT5 was awful because of the limited selection of "true" rally courses (Toscana, Chamonix, and Eiger) and the unmitigated disaster that was Gran Turismo Rally.

Just to rant for a second, GT Rally was so abysmal, it actually put me off playing GT5 for a while. Well, that and the Grand Tour special event. The stages were so bland and lifeless, they literally put me to sleep. Honestly, the game would have been better if "events" like that weren't included to begin with. Half-baked features really drag the overall experience down.

Couldn't agree more. WRC 3 (milestone) had average graphics and was generally unpolished in comparison to GT5 but was a hell of a lot more fun and faithful to the WRC experience. Can't wait to give WRC 4 a run.

Rally in GT5 really cheapened the whole experience, like it was just thrown in last minute so they could use it as a selling point on the game cover. Come on KY you're better than that!

 

[ShiftingGears]

The quality of the course maker with respect to rally stages will make or break rally in GT6. Rally in GT5 was awful because of the limited selection of "true" rally courses (Toscana, Chamonix, and Eiger) and the unmitigated disaster that was Gran Turismo Rally.

Whilst I agree with your point technically Toscana, Eiger and Chamonix aren't even "true" rally courses because they aren't stages. A shame because there was obviously serious effort put in to model them.

Just to rant for a second, GT Rally was so abysmal, it actually put me off playing GT5 for a while. Well, that and the Grand Tour special event. The stages were so bland and lifeless, they literally put me to sleep. Honestly, the game would have been better if "events" like that weren't included to begin with. Half-baked features really drag the overall experience down.

It's why announcing things like the Senna feature instead of core gameplay improvements further drives me away from purchasing the game.

 

[CarreraGT]

It's why announcing things like the Senna feature instead of core gameplay improvements further drives me away from purchasing the game.

This worries me a little bit too. I've already pre-ordered GT6 and was always going to buy it but after seeing the failures that were WRC, Nascar, Top Gear etc. in GT5 these sort of announcements don't exactly get me excited...

I would take an updated sound model, improved AI and more car customisation over these gimmicky addons any day

 

[glassjaw]

Whilst I agree with your point technically Toscana, Eiger and Chamonix aren't even "true" rally courses because they aren't stages. A shame because there was obviously serious effort put in to model them.

Yes, but you know what I mean. Those three are purpose-built venues as opposed to GT Rally stages that are generated through course maker. I'd still take Toscana, Eiger, and Chamonix, even if they aren't point to point.

 

[research]

Whilst I agree with your point technically Toscana, Eiger and Chamonix aren't even "true" rally courses because they aren't stages. A shame because there was obviously serious effort put in to model them.

While they don't fit the old 'rally stage' category, they do in fact make fantastic Rallycross circuits. 8 rally cars blasting around Toscana in a head-to-head battle would be a great romp.. with GT3's gravel physics. ; )

 

[R34EVO9]

They only need copy Collin McCrea 3 and all our rally problems are solved. Courses are too wide there only 4 cars per rally and the courses are way too short but im pretty sure someelse already covered this

 

[pooioo]

They only need copy Collin McCrea 3 and all our rally problems are solved. Courses are too wide there only 4 cars per rally and the courses are way too short but im pretty sure someelse already covered this

I never understand this point because on automatic replays generated from the main menu, they're 16.

 

[Rallywagon]

I am of the mind that Rallying in GT5 fell flat as well. It sucks. It's a sideshow. Something you try a time or two, say, neat, then move on. I really hope that the track editor allows for point to point and not just looped tracks. Like Glassjaw said and others alluded too, the track editor will really make or break the rally experience in GT6. Outside of that, and maybe the addition of a co-driver, but mostly just being able to make point to point tracks, will really do a lot to improve rally racing. I do wonder how the new tire and suspension stuff plays out in the dirt and snow too.

 

[R34EVO9]

I never understand this point because on automatic replays generated from the main menu, they're 16.

I've never noticed that.. Strange

 

[JohnBM01]

The most unusual thing about Gran Turismo 5 is that NONE of the original Dirt and Snow courses from past Gran Turismo tracks returned for Gran Turismo 5. And yes- I am NOT counting the different Chamonix courses in GT5. If there was one thing Gran Turismo 5 got right about rallying, however, it is hands-down the implementation of point-to-point rallying. Though unfortunately, I wished you could make individual point-to-point rally stages rather than closed circuit courses. What I've kept hearing was about more detailed models for making generated rally courses. I don't know what to make of that and if more interesting rally courses could be made. When I usually think of rally courses, I usually think of things like water splashes, fans lining the sides of some of the viewing sections, rocks on the side of the road that can cause punctures, a blend of different driving surfaces, brutal weather conditions, and the like. Gran Turismo 5 had an interesting package, but it could be a lot more complete. Complete as in the likes of what you'd see in games like "Colin McRae Rally: 2005 Edition" or "Richard Burns Rally."

What I hated about rally racing in Gran Turismo 5 was the driving dynamics. The car would bog down so bad in low-speed sections. The game still doesn't feel complete in off-road racing. Likewise, it isn't too much in on-road rallying either.


Gran Turismo will likely continue with rally racing, but a lot more polish is really needed for the rally racing to be as great as the regular racing. Improvement is showing regardless. I am just looking for some more improvement.