Real Guns

[Obelisk]

Not to go entirely off topic, but I just had a thought for a system like the SPAS 12 tried to do.

So what if a shotgun had a simple recoil-based mechanism (like most do), but with the pump attached to it? So if the gun is fired and has enough energy to cycle, the pump mechanism is detached and if the gun fails to cycle, it can be operated like a pump action instead.

Or just have the pump action be a few rods inside of the shotgun that engage the cycle when they meet the rest of the mechanism?

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right.

 

[Brett]

I checked Walmart again, and it did say HST, but also micro? Do you guys know what that's about? 9mm is 9mm,but you can't return ammunition, so I put off the purchase for now. PS Thanks guys for the recommendations. 👍

All the Micro means is it is designed to work better out of sub compact pistols. From what I could gather, it will perform great in compact or full size pistols.

Not to go entirely off topic, but I just had a thought for a system like the SPAS 12 tried to do.

So what if a shotgun had a simple recoil-based mechanism (like most do), but with the pump attached to it? So if the gun is fired and has enough energy to cycle, the pump mechanism is detached and if the gun fails to cycle, it can be operated like a pump action instead.

Or just have the pump action be a few rods inside of the shotgun that engage the cycle when they meet the rest of the mechanism?

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right.

Seems unnecessarily complicated. If a semi does not cycle, then cycle the action and get a fresh shell into the gun. Then run different ammunition that will cycle in the future.

Aside, the Benelli M3 can be run as a pump or semi, but not in the manner described above. It has to be set to one or the other and then switched between the two.

 

[Obelisk]

Seems unnecessarily complicated. If a semi does not cycle, then cycle the action and get a fresh shell into the gun. Then run different ammunition that will cycle in the future.

Aside, the Benelli M3 can be run as a pump or semi, but not in the manner described above. It has to be set to one or the other and then switched between the two.

My idea was to merge the two things into one. Now that I've given it a bit of thought I can summarize it a bit better.

It maintains the recoil/blowback system independent of the pump. If the gun fails to cycle (i.e. low pressure/nonlethal rounds), the pump will be there. It's simply a few rods of metal that push the action back when the pump is pushed back. I can try to draw a diagram when I have a little free time tonight.

 

[a6m5]

Micro means they are for a sub compact. Jacketed Hollow Points like an HST is designed for more of a full size pistol like something a police officer would carry. I think a regular HST would probably be too much for a sub compact.

All the Micro means is it is designed to work better out of sub compact pistols. From what I could gather, it will perform great in compact or full size pistols.

I couldn't find anything on Federal website, but found this on guns.com. Looks like you guys were on the money:

I think I'll swing by sporting goods store sometime this week & check out to see if they have the regular HST, or Speer Gold Dot. Thanks again guys. 👍

 

[prousonhairy]

If any of you live close to a Gander Mountain, they are having a going out of business clearance sale on all items. I knew they were closing certain stores, but now it looks like they all may be closing. I don't know what kind of bargains they have, but I think I'm going to head up there just to check it out.

Edit: apparently Camping World bought them out.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What kind of hollow point do you guys keep in your 9mm? My local Walmart carries the hydrashock in standard & low recoil. Are they any good? Low recoil sounds good for home defense, but I want them to cycle reliably, too.

I haven't shopped 9mm in a looong time, so I'd love to get some recommendations or tips before I try a couple.

P.S. I heard that one kid at work purchased a VP9 Tactical. I had never heard of it before, but I guess it has the threaded barrel? Bad ass!

I not surprised this is what you'd post up, let me get the price . North of $900?

As for hollow points, those work fine, my father typically bought those for his Bersa, and had the rare cycling issue, but not at all often. I mean just cause it's sold at walmart doesn't mean it's cheaper, they sell the same stuff that I can buy at a gun store or bass pro shop or whatever.

 

[a6m5]

I not surprised this is what you'd post up, let me get the price . North of $900?

Jesus, dude. This is more of Brett's territory. I just have never seen one & thought it looked really cool. All my guns are blue collar, except HK. I also have Kimber, but both that & HK were purchased(+trade) used.

As for hollow points, those work fine, my father typically bought those for his Bersa, and had the rare cycling issue, but not at all often. I mean just cause it's sold at walmart doesn't mean it's cheaper, they sell the same stuff that I can buy at a gun store or bass pro shop or whatever.

Walmart ammo never let me down anymore than any other ammo, so I'm not worried about that. In fact, my experience with the Walmart ammo has been better than stuff from ammunition shops & gun shops.

My main concern was the cycling & potential "failure to" whatever, which is why I decided to pass on the Micro. Anything can happen with guns & ammo, but I want to cut down on the possibility of a malfunction as much as possible, especially when on a self-defense gun!

 

[prousonhairy]

Gander mountain was a waste of a trip, the sales weren't that great. I did stop by a gun dealer on the way home about 30 miles from my house. He had a HK45c Tactical for $1200. I thought about getting it, but I like the regular HK45 better than the compact. The compact holds 8 in the magazine, it can use 10rd magazines, but it sticks out and looks a little goofy. Plus the grips on the normal HK45 are nicer.

I was talking to the owner of the store, and I don't think I'm going to get the tactical version. It's $200-$300 more than the standard HK45, and it's the same gun besides the threaded barrel and it has different sights. He has a HK45 and says it will shoot anything you feed it. So that's where I'll be buying my gun when I decide to get it. He's a HK dealer, so that works out great because I have a feeling I'm going to end up with a few different HK's eventually.

 

[Obelisk]

Need some suggestions from you guys.

So I'd like to actually go get my license, as there is a gun club in town and members can bring their own gear in.

Any recommendations for a good, relatively affordable long rifle (or shotgun) and pistol for range use?

 

[a6m5]

Gander mountain was a waste of a trip, the sales weren't that great. I did stop by a gun dealer on the way home about 30 miles from my house. He had a HK45c Tactical for $1200. I thought about getting it, but I like the regular HK45 better than the compact. The compact holds 8 in the magazine, it can use 10rd magazines, but it sticks out and looks a little goofy. Plus the grips on the normal HK45 are nicer.

I was talking to the owner of the store, and I don't think I'm going to get the tactical version. It's $200-$300 more than the standard HK45, and it's the same gun besides the threaded barrel and it has different sights. He has a HK45 and says it will shoot anything you feed it. So that's where I'll be buying my gun when I decide to get it. He's a HK dealer, so that works out great because I have a feeling I'm going to end up with a few different HK's eventually.

Too bad about the sale. Have you considered USP Compacts? I thought their ammo capacity was higher than that, plus it might be nice to have a handgun that you could potentially conceal carry...

Need some suggestions from you guys.

So I'd like to actually go get my license, as there is a gun club in town and members can bring their own gear in.

Any recommendations for a good, relatively affordable long rifle (or shotgun) and pistol for range use?

I saw some sale prices on S&W M&P's recently, and their prices were ridiculously low. After rebate, some of their handguns were in $300 range, some lower than that. Their AR-15 was $499. Cheap for AR, but you can find rifles much, much cheaper than that if you look for bolt-action. If it were me, I'd look at Ruger bolt-action. Mosin-Nagant Russian surplus rifles are also very popular.

 

[prousonhairy]

Too bad about the sale. Have you considered USP Compacts? I thought their ammo capacity was higher than that, plus it might be nice to have a handgun that you could potentially conceal carry...

Yeah he had a couple HK USP compacts there, they hold 12. I think they might have a match trigger too? They are really nice, but I really want a HK45. The FN FNX Tactical can hold 15+1, they are really nice too, but I think I'm set on HK.

I was also checking out an HK vp40 he had, that's a sweet gun as well and the grips are somewhat similar to the HK45, which is why I like the HK45 so much is because I love the grips on that thing.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Jesus, dude. This is more of Brett's territory. I just have never seen one & thought it looked really cool. All my guns are blue collar, except HK. I also have Kimber, but both that & HK were purchased(+trade) used.

Was poking fun at your "love" of HK since I'm not a big fan of them use wise, design wise it's hard to argue without how good they look.

Walmart ammo never let me down anymore than any other ammo, so I'm not worried about that. In fact, my experience with the Walmart ammo has been better than stuff from ammunition shops & gun shops.

My main concern was the cycling & potential "failure to" whatever, which is why I decided to pass on the Micro. Anything can happen with guns & ammo, but I want to cut down on the possibility of a malfunction as much as possible, especially when on a self-defense gun!

Exactly you always should, like I said though, having a misfire or jam due to cycling seems to not happen any more often than if you bought from a full on gun shop. So you'll be good I believe. Plus they seem to have better deals and sales from time to time.

Yeah he had a couple HK USP compacts there, they hold 12. I think they might have a match trigger too? They are really nice, but I really want a HK45. The FN FNX Tactical can hold 15+1, they are really nice too, but I think I'm set on HK.

I was also checking out an HK vp40 he had, that's a sweet gun as well and the grips are somewhat similar to the HK45, which is why I like the HK45 so much is because I love the grips on that thing.

If capacity and carry use are you goals, you could always go glock and not have that worry

 

[Brett]

Need some suggestions from you guys.

So I'd like to actually go get my license, as there is a gun club in town and members can bring their own gear in.

Any recommendations for a good, relatively affordable long rifle (or shotgun) and pistol for range use?

Everyone should have a .22LR rifle and you can never go wrong with a Ruger 10/22. I actually wished I had gone with a Ruger 10/22 for my first rifle.

If you want to skip the .22 LR and step up to .223/5.56, then a Ruger AR-556 is a good choice. A S&W M&P 15 Sport II is also a good alternative. For a little more money and better quality, an Aero AC-15M is worth considering.

For a .22LR pistol, the Ruger Mk IV is an awesome option. If you want something in 9mm, then a Glock 17 or 19 is always highly recommended. H&K's VP9 is a good alternative, as is the recently US military adopted Sig P320. If you want something hammer fired, then CZ's P07 or P09 are good options.

For a shotgun, the Mossberg 500/590/590A1 is good to go. You will also not have to take a chance on Remington's recent spotty quality control. You could also look into an older, used Remington 870, but I do not know enough about what to look for to be of much help in that process.

 

[Obelisk]

Glock 17 or 19

Illegal for new sale in my state. I have to get one used and I don't like that idea.

For a .22LR rifle, you can never go wrong with a Ruger 10/22. If you want to step up to .223/5.56, then a Ruger AR-556 or S&W M&P 15 Sport II are good choices. An Aero AC-15M is a little more expensive, but the quality is also better.

AR-15s are fun. Thanks for the suggestions here!

For a .22LR pistol, the Ruger Mk IV is an awesome option.

Couldn't agree more. Easy to manage, too!

For a shotgun, the Mossberg 500/590/590A1 is good to go. You will also not have to take a chance on Remington's spotty quality control. You could also look into an older, used Remington 870, but I do not know enough about what to look for to be of much help in that process.

These are pump actions, right? Any single/double barrel suggestions?

 

[Brett]

Illegal for new sale in my state. I have to get one used and I don't like that idea.

I had no idea a Glock 17 or 19 was illegal for new sale in any state.

These are pump actions, right?

That is correct. The Mossberg 500/590/590A1 are all pump action.

Any single/double barrel suggestions?

I cannot really be of much help with single or double barrel shotgun suggestions. Neither of those are something I have spent much time looking into. I suspect I will be looking into a over under shotgun at some point, but that is a ways off; I have an AR-15 to finish building first.

ASIDE: I edited my previous post to include a bit more information and clarity.

 

[Obelisk]

I had no idea a Glock 17 or 19 was illegal for new sale in any state.

The platform has no external safety, which is why it's illegal to buy new.

That is correct. The Mossberg 500/590/590A1 are all pump action.

Any specific derivatives I should look into?

I cannot really be of much help with single or double barrel shotgun suggestions. Neither of those are something I have spent much time looking into. I suspect I will be looking into a over under shotgun at some point, but that is a ways off; I have an AR-15 to finish building first.

Thanks anyways! My dad used to have a shotgun called a Featherlight, which was single shot. It's still at his old house with his father. I'll have to see if he'll pass it down to me.

 

[Brett]

Any specific derivatives I should look into?

I only have experience with a 20" 590A1. I like it quite a bit now that I have had a chance to shoot the thing after owning it for some time. The question I would need to ask is what are you planning on using it for?

 

[Obelisk]

I only have experience with a 20" 590A1. I like it quite a bit now that I have had a chance to shoot the thing after owning it for some time. The question I would need to ask is what are you planning on using it for?

If possible, I'd like to just hit the range with it. I realize that may be a foolish endeavor, though.

 

[Michael88]

If possible, I'd like to just hit the range with it. I realize that may be a foolish endeavor, though.

Shoot slugs.

 

[Omnis]

Went to the range today and shot:

• H&K USP Compact
• Para Ordnance 1911 (I think a Black-Ops model?)
• FNS-9c
• PPQ M2

My cousin and I loved the PPQ and the USP. The 1911 was finicky as hell and jammed like crazy. We shot 20 rounds and had like 6 jams. I had two extraction/ejection failures. This was a greasy rental gun with a dirty magazine, but I can't imagine owning a 1911 if it doesn't even work. None of the rented guns were in that bad of a condition to cause that many failures. The FNS9 was OK, but to me it felt a little too flippy for what it was. And I hated the trigger. On the USP and the PPQ you could feel where the break was, but the FNS just feels like a wall and a guess as to when the bang will go off.

And I was even more disappointed in the FN since its "ambidextrous" mag release is garbage. You can't even activate the lefty mag release with your thumb. You have to take your hand off and jam your index finger into the button to push it into the frame. Terrible design. I hope the CZ is better.

At this point, I think I'd rather look at a CZ or some other hammer fired gun. Even the PPQ felt a little gritty, but I had by far the best groups with its trigger compared to the rest. HK sights sucked, and I hate 45 (so heavy and so much flip), but that wasn't a bad shooter.

 

[a6m5]

Sure, USP doubles as hand grenade, but leave that part out.

My Kimber 1911 did some of that failure to extract stuff, but with new magazines & recoil spring, it stopped completely.

 

[Blood Eagle]

1911s or any all steel heavy fullsize requires a firm grip to make sure the slide can get the momentum it needs to go all the way back to extract the spent casing and load the next one. I figured this out on my Browning Hi Power. I was following through with the recoil like you would a rifle or shotgun and essentially absorbing the recoil which led to FTEs and FTFs. Aka limp wristing. Not saying that was the case with this particular one but was a pretty big problem until I changed my grip on it. If you are not limp wristing and still have the same problem, I'd suspect a magazine issue or even the feed ramp.

 

[Brett]

I had a different problem with my CZ-75. If I did not make sure to keep my thumb on top of the safety, then recoil could cause my thumb to ever so slightly engage the safety. Once I figured that was my problem, I have not had an issue since.

 

[High-Test]

Everyone should have a .22LR rifle and you can never go wrong with a Ruger 10/22. I actually wished I had gone with a Ruger 10/22 for my first rifle.

If you want to skip the .22 LR and step up to .223/5.56, then a Ruger AR-556 is a good choice. A S&W M&P 15 Sport II is also a good alternative. For a little more money and better quality, an Aero AC-15M is worth considering.

For a .22LR pistol, the Ruger Mk IV is an awesome option. If you want something in 9mm, then a Glock 17 or 19 is always highly recommended. H&K's VP9 is a good alternative, as is the recently US military adopted Sig P320. If you want something hammer fired, then CZ's P07 or P09 are good options.

For a shotgun, the Mossberg 500/590/590A1 is good to go. You will also not have to take a chance on Remington's recent spotty quality control. You could also look into an older, used Remington 870, but I do not know enough about what to look for to be of much help in that process.

Brett, I agree with your statement on the value of a .22 rifle. 100%. And on the rest of your post.

I had a 10/22 takedown. Mine failed to eject every magazine. my experience is the polar opposite of the norm that this rifle delivers I've fired several other 10/22s that were nothing more than a dream.

It ended with me talking to the same guy at the range I frequent for the umpteenth time. I had done everything I could to get it running as well as possible, and fully broken in, because Ruger knows their stuff with .22s. A friend has a 1965 Ruger Mk II target pistol. It is... pretty. This gentleman at the range told me "You're the only one I've ever seen have consistent problems with a 10/22. I saw you with that Marlin and thought you traded up. But then you fired all of 46 rounds from the 22 by my count. You looked disgusted. I'm out of ideas. Send it to the factory."

I traded it and $250 for a Glock 43. I don't regret trading that particular rifle, but I sure as hell regret the 43. It's a combination of right-handedness and scar tissue on my left eyebrow causing an inability to close my left eye only. My lens prescription is -7.70 and -7.75... ugh.

This is not to say that the Glock 43 is not a well-made weapon. It is. I don't like the sight picture. The other part is my learning handguns on a 5" 1911 with GI sights. I've had that Glock almost a year and the trigger safety still messes with me. I'd rather have a grip safety.

My Dad, who is one frugal dude, bought himself and my stepmom each a 9mm pistol after someone he fired threatened to kill them. He cheaped out. He bought a High Point and an SCCY. He was nice enough to give the SCCY to my stepmom. I broke the SCCY in. (I refused to fire the Hi-Point) Don't buy one. The offbrand windex has a shorter trigger pull.


As for rifle recommendations, I have nothing but good things to report about the Marlin 336 series. Maybe lever action isn't your thing. The beauty of lever action is that it gets beyond any legalistic magazine skullduggery. It can't be removed.

That being said, the little bitty screw that holds in the feed ramp can be the devil incarnate if you let it.

when it comes to firearms on GTPlanet, ask @Brett , @a6m5 , or @Michael88 . They won't steer you wrong.

I'm a luddite.

1911s or any all steel heavy fullsize requires a firm grip to make sure the slide can get the momentum it needs to go all the way back to extract the spent casing and load the next one. I figured this out on my Browning Hi Power. I was following through with the recoil like you would a rifle or shotgun and essentially absorbing the recoil which led to FTEs and FTFs. Aka limp wristing. Not saying that was the case with this particular one but was a pretty big problem until I changed my grip on it. If you are not limp wristing and still have the same problem, I'd suspect a magazine issue or even the feed ramp.

Quoted for truth.

 

[a6m5]

Guys like Blood Eagle, Michael, Zenith, David, etc., I learn stuff when I read their posts. When I do give advice, I try to just stick with my observations.

I bought a Glock again(19, 9mm), but I couldn't agree more on the trigger. I hate Glock trigger, not a fan of the sight picture either. However, Glock simplicity in design & reliability's hard to beat, so I got the one I wanted for really long time. Glocks have good price point, too. I'm hoping to shoot mine for the first time tomorrow. It'll be raining, but couple of kids from work are going & I'm tagging along. They have trucks.

P.S. Sorry to hear about the death threat to your family. It's messed up that there are people like that out there.

 

[High-Test]

Guys like Blood Eagle, Michael, Zenith, David, etc., I learn stuff when I read their posts. When I do give advice, I try to just stick with my observations.

Truth. I only know my observations, which is very little comparatively. I thought long and hard about what munitions I was buying after your USP incident. Apologies if I raised a sore subject. But those ten or twelve pages of this thread were used among myself and many people I know as a learning experience. (It led to arguments. )

Side note. My employer is helping out a veterans charity in Kansas City called Veteran's Community Project http://veteranscommunityproject.org/, and the founder of VCP mentioned that someone donated a one-off AR-15 for their fundraising gala, which my company is organizing. Said one-off AR-15 is chambered in... golf balls.

I asked Kevin, the founder of VCP, how it worked. The reply was "I have no idea, man. It's insane."

P.S. Sorry to hear about the death threat to your family. It's messed up that there are people like that out there.

Like the Doors said: People are strange.

 

[a6m5]

Truth. I only know my observations, which is very little comparatively. I thought long and hard about what munitions I was buying after your USP incident. Apologies if I raised a sore subject. But those ten or twelve pages of this thread were used among myself and many people I know as a learning experience. (It led to arguments. )

I'm not gonna lie, I'm still nervous to shoot. When shooting USP, I'm actually little bit scared. But I posted all that stuff, I even blogged it, because I think spreading what I learned & experienced in the ordeal was kind of important.

I studied a lot of cases posted online with same style case blowout in the chamber like with my USP & most of them were handloads. I was convinced that it was the ammo soon after it happened & after seeing the evidences from all other similar incidents, that opinion has not changed. I decided not to disclose the ammo brand, because the company was totally professional with me & in the end, did right by me. I also believe that similar things could happen with any manufacturers out there. My impression is that it truly was an isolated incident.

Some people online says that USP is designed to blow up in such a way, it disperses the pressure safely, minimizing injury to the shooter. I don't know if that's true, but it sure worked out for me!

 

[High-Test]

@a6m5 , please don't be offendd by my liking of your post. The most miraculous thing was that you weren't hurt more than scratched. Amen on the munitions issue. They did right by you. That's what matters.

 

[a6m5]

@a6m5 , please don't be offendd by my liking of your post. The most miraculous thing was that you weren't hurt more than scratched. Amen on the munitions issue. They did right by you. That's what matters.

I wouldn't be offended by that. Thank you for the "like" though.

 

[Michael88]

As for 22's, I would never buy a semi-auto ever. This might be quite an unpopular choice but its because of personal reasons, if there is one thing that makes me dislike a gun its a jamming gun. Even the best .22 will jam eventually due to faulty ammunition or simply because .22lr is very dirty ammo that clogs up the action after a couple dozen rounds.

I'm not saying there aren't any good reliable .22 semis out there but they're not for me. I have a CZ .22lr target bolt action and I'm extremely happy with it. Yes, .22 semi shoots ways faster but mine is dead reliable and hits 12 Gauge shells at 100yds.