Real Guns

[Xavier2342]

Michael88 congrats on the new purchase, you got one heck of a deal. Obelisk what state do you live in? To my knowledge I don't think lever actions are banned, unless you're limited to a 5-round capacity in your state?

 

[Obelisk]

Obelisk what state do you live in?

Massachusetts.
It doesn't appear that lever action rifles are restricted by law, but there is an assault weapon law in place and I can't understand legalese.

 

[a6m5]

I'd be shocked if they banned lever-action. Sweet rifle, @Michael88 Congrats on the winning bid. 👍

I'll let you guys know how my AR tools work out. Meanwhile, check out what I picked up from 5.11 New Years sale. I also ordered the extra large. I plan on using this small duffle bag for my shooting bag. I could barely stuff my things in the 5.11 Rush 12 backpack now, so I've been looking around for another pack. Love 5.11 packs & pants. 👍

 

[Michael88]

Michael88 congrats on the new purchase, you got one heck of a deal. Obelisk what state do you live in? To my knowledge I don't think lever actions are banned, unless you're limited to a 5-round capacity in your state?

I'm not from the US but I'm pretty sure that the capacity limitation in magazines does not apply to lever action rifles.

For example Colorado explicitly lists lever action rifles being exempt from the magazine capacity restrictions: https://lawcenter.giffords.org/large-capacity-ammunition-magazines-in-colorado/

 

[Xavier2342]

a6m5 which 5.11 bag did you order as a range bag?
Obelisk I did some reading about the gun laws in Massachusetts and should be in the clear in regards to lever action long guns. The only lever action I can think of that has greater than 10-round capacity is a Henry Classic Lever Action .22. According to what I just read something it would not be considered a large capacity firearm and would not require a firearms license to own since it is a primitive long gun.

A large-capacity firearm is defined as a semi-automatic handgun or rifle that is capable of accepting more than ten rounds, OR is a semi-automatic shotgun capable of accepting more than five shotgun shells, OR is an assault weapon. A rifle with a fixed tubular magazine designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber ammunition is not a large-capacity firearm.

NOTE: Although a firearms license is not needed to possess primitive long guns such as a muzzleloading rifle or shotgun or its ammunition, a firearms license is needed to purchase all ammunition including black powder.

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/gun-ownership-in-massachusetts

 

[Xavier2342]

Had some time to spare, so I went to the gum range and rented the almighty Beretta M9A3. @a6m5 you were 100% spot-on about the trigger. I haven't had a chance to shoot the older M9 (92FS) but the PX4 Storm I do have experience with has a better trigger. This isn't necessarily a huge negative, for me it would just take a few boxes of ammo to get use to. I like the grip texture, but I wish the grip was a longer. Other than that I liked everything else about this gun. With a sound suppressor I think gun would be a great option for home defense.

 

[a6m5]

a6m5 which 5.11 bag did you order as a range bag?

Mike(medium).

Had some time to spare, so I went to the gum range and rented the almighty Beretta M9A3. @a6m5 you were 100% spot-on about the trigger. I haven't had a chance to shoot the older M9 (92FS) but the PX4 Storm I do have experience with has a better trigger

That’s too bad about the tirgger. Gun looks SO good.

 

[a6m5]

Weekend's been all rain, so three of us managed to go plinking today(whole story and pics if anybody wanted to see moar).

Spoiler

a6m5 shot his AR15, TC/R22, Glock 19 & .45ACP USP. All on the money, all fun.

I was hoping to go back to the new spot I discovered couple months ago, but my buddy wanted to go back to the usual spot(impressive backstop though).

My new 5.11 patch mimicking the Made in Oregon sign.

Same guy who bought the S&W 44 Mag, 50 Cal Desert Eagle this year closed the year with FN Five seveN. Second guy in my circle to buy one of these. Different is good. He didn't even oil it, and first mag had weird failure to feed/stove pipe thing going. After that, pretty much ran smoothly. Go figure.

 

[Omnis]

Omnis congrats on your purchase, looking forward to hearing about your experience with this gun. Prior to reading your post I knew nothing about the Archon Type B. I watched a few videos about that gun and one thing I will say about that gun is that I really like the grip texture. I'm going to have to keep an eye out for it at the next gun show. As far as Bersa goes were you able to get your hands on a BP9? I think the M&P Shield may have stolen some styling cues from the BP9.

Nope. It's the Thunder Pro 9 XT, the race gun. It's at my ffl and the Archon should come this afternoon so I'll post an update after I pick them up.

Basically, Patrick Kelly's vid sold me on it. You get a hand fitted barrel so you don't need any aftermarket bushings or anything, you get great ergo as a lefty, and you get 5 mags. Honestly can't wait to shoot it

 

[a6m5]

Sounds promising, but man, he's quite a salesman, too.

 

[Omnis]

Picked up the guns today. Gun shop was surprisingly packed and everyone was going oohing and aahing my guns lol. This other guy came in and picked up an awesome looking Bergara HMR. We had a gun guy connection moment when I was watching him cycle the action while I let the shop guys play with my Type B. The Bersa was pretty sweet, but it didn't feel great in the shop. Patrick Kelly was right, because holy crap that thing came CAKED with cosmoline. Nothing the ol' Hoppe's soaked Viper boresnake couldn't fix though. Once I cleaned it and lubed it up with my ALG thin grease, that thing IS BUTTAH. It should shoot great. The trigger reminds me of a bolt action rifle in SA. It goes all the way back and feels just like you're squeezing the back of the pistol grip. The pull is so light that there's not really a perceptible wall. It just kind of pushes back and then you have to articulate your DIP joint to get it to go past the break. It doesn't feel like a fast trigger, but I imagine you'd be able to squeeze off some super accurate shots with this thing. The DA pull is also amazing. It feels lighter and better than a glock. Similarly, the Archon feels awesome once it's lubed right. The barrel and locking assembly just glide like they're on ice with a small film of the thin grease in place. I love that stuff. If I can get my FN fixed, I'm going to try to sell it. So far the archon feels superior in every way. Both of these guns feel like a dream. I can't believe the way I've struggled as a shooter with that oversprung pain in the ass 509.

 

[a6m5]

So, one of my buddies who has tons of firearms already, he texted me the new gun he just picked up. I went plinking with him back in October or something. First gun was Sig 300 Blackout AR pistol(Rattler). Wow. New gun already..... Then he sends picture of P226 he got from his boss for Christmas(). Then proceeds to tell me he also picked up Glock 40(apparently 10mm, 6" barrel) & Ruger 9mm Carbine.

"well, thanks for the pics, catch you later..."

Last pic: Sako A7 300 Win Mag with Zeiss scope. 👍

Other buddy, this one I work with comes into work this afternoon. He's the one who bought S&W 44 Mag/50AE Desert Eagle/FN 57 this year, went plinking with him just couple days ago. I've been bugging him that he really needs to buy a long gun, as he hasn't owned a rifle since crap SKS he got rid of while back(no disrespect, it was crap condition gun). He bought DPMS AR15 & red dot today. 👍

These guys are doing much better than my other two friends I go shooting with. No new purchases in ten years or more?

Biggest news though is my good friend who is anti-gun. He's gotten into fishing few years ago & I guess somebody's robbing these poor guys in the area where they fish. He's talking about getting a gun, attending class & concealed carry permit. This is a exciting development for me. I've been trying to get him to come with us for YEARS. :tup:

 

[Omnis]

I LOVE the Archon. My first shots with it made the best group I've ever put on paper at 7 yards. Because the rounds in magazine sit so flush to the barrel, the magazine spring is super easy to depress and they take all 15 rounds without a struggle.



The Bersa is also a tack driver but I think I need to adjust the sights.
It shoots a little to the right, the big group was aimed midline neck and the small group off to the left was aimed directly onto the left number 4.

Below are more groups at 10 yards.

Headshots were archon, the abdomen is rapid fire archon and the ugly shoulder was rapid fire Bersa. The one thing about the Archon is that you can get back on target so quickly. The sight picture comes right back to your target very easily.

Also, another funny thing is that I felt something whack into my thumb when I was shooting the Archon. I looked down and found this...

Lol. Lefty ultra low bore axis problems. At least it didn't take my thumb off like a direct gas blowback gun lol

 

[a6m5]

I've been interested in .300 Blackout & 6.8 lately...... Then I read that only component change to AR15 for Blackout is the barrel? For 6.8, barrel/bolt/magazine? Not even the bolt carrier? I was like:

Spoiler

I think I want to do at least one of those things....

 

[Xavier2342]

Omnis man that Archon looks awesome. What light are you running on that thing? Also, are you planning on doing any competition shooting with the Bersa?

a6m5 I don't care much about the P226 but the Glock 40 and Ruger PC . The situation you explained about your newly pro-gun friend sounds very similar to a situation a friend of a friend ran into. After his first purchase for home defense and finding out just how much he enjoys shooting, he now has a gun range membership and a lot more guns.

I had the same reaction you did about .300 BLK and 6.5 creedmoor. The .300 BLK is particularly interesting to me because of how quiet of round it is. Awhile back I was at an indoor range and there was a gentleman shooting .300 BLK out of 16" barrel AR15. I honestly thought he was shooting a suppressed rifle. Things are definitely going to be more interesting when we start seeing sub $9 20-round boxes of brass cased .300 BLK. I just recently learned about 6.5 creedmore and how it stacks up against .308 WIN.

 

[a6m5]

a6m5 I don't care much about the P226 but the Glock 40 and Ruger PC . The situation you explained about your newly pro-gun friend sounds very similar to a situation a friend of a friend ran into. After his first purchase for home defense and finding out just how much he enjoys shooting, he now has a gun range membership and a lot more guns.

My buddy's solid democrat, conservative hating & anti-gun, so him just entertaining gun ownership is a big progress. Like the guy you know, anytime we can get new people into this hobby is a win considering the political climate today. 👍

I had the same reaction you did about .300 BLK and 6.5 creedmoor. The .300 BLK is particularly interesting to me because of how quiet of round it is. Awhile back I was at an indoor range and there was a gentleman shooting .300 BLK out of 16" barrel AR15. I honestly thought he was shooting a suppressed rifle. Things are definitely going to be more interesting when we start seeing sub $9 20-round boxes of brass cased .300 BLK. I just recently learned about 6.5 creedmore and how it stacks up against .308 WIN.

I didn't even know about 6.5 Creedmoor. Wow, another one. 👍 After reading little bit about the 6.8 & 6.5 Creedmoor, my Bushmaster 308 seem like even more of overkill for plinking. If I only knew back then what I know today. And with those two calibers, AR15 frame would be so much more compact than AR10s.

I find myself leaning towards .300 Blackout upper(complete). Sounds perfect for plinking as far rifle calibers go, I like how it's quieter & while I always kinda wanted AK, I'm thinking that .300 Blackout might scratch the itch I've had for 7.62x39.....

Only negative I've found so far are the price & availability of the caliber. I noticed from online how rounds are not really comparable in pricing to .223 or AK rounds. It also failed my Walmart test today on availability, as they didn't have one box of .300 Blackout. I still want it.

 

[Omnis]

Omnis man that Archon looks awesome. What light are you running on that thing? Also, are you planning on doing any competition shooting with the Bersa?

It's my TLR1 that I took off the broken 509. Works great. As for competitions, I can't do anything without a holster! I'm going to focus more on actually not sucking before I worry about competitions. That said, the trigger on the Bersa is really weird. I thought it would be great but since the break is so far back and my hands are so big it's like I'm having to pivot my DIP joint to break the shot. It feels like I'm having to stick my finger out into my palm to "push" the trigger back instead of just breaking the shot off with a squeeze.

 

[Michael88]

About the 6.5 Creedmoor - I ran the numbers to show you how much of a marketing gag this cartridge really is. I took a 155 grain A-Max at 2850 for the .308, for the 6.5 a Lapua Scenar 139 grain bullet at 2710 fp/s. Both very good match bullets, both very typical laods for their caliber. The .308 actually outperforms the 6.5 by a tiny margin.

Green is the .308, blue the 6.5 Creedmoore.

Bullet drop and Energy:

Green is the .308, blue the 6.5 Creedmoore. At 500 yds the .308 has 1'' less drop than the 6.5, and the difference in velocity is 90 fp/s. Energy is the same.

Why you'd want a relatively hard to get niche cartridge that decreases your rifles barrel life and costs more over a standard issue military rifle round that has very similar ballistics, which is one of the most popular rounds in existence, costs very little and is available everywhere is beyond me.
Bottom line is if you see shooter with a 6.5 Creedmoor next to a guy who shoots a .308 you will not be able to tell a difference, until you compare the weight of their wallets.

 

[Brett]

About the 6.5 Creedmoor - I ran the numbers to show you how much of a marketing gag this cartridge really is. I took a 155 grain A-Max at 2850 for the .308, for the 6.5 a Lapua Scenar 139 grain bullet at 2710 fp/s. Both very good match bullets, both very typical laods for their caliber. The .308 actually outperforms the 6.5 by a tiny margin.

Green is the .308, blue the 6.5 Creedmoore.

Bullet drop and Energy:

Green is the .308, blue the 6.5 Creedmoore. At 500 yds the .308 has 1'' less drop than the 6.5, and the difference in velocity is 90 fp/s. Energy is the same.

Why you'd want a relatively hard to get niche cartridge that decreases your rifles barrel life and costs more over a standard issue military rifle round that is one of the most popular rounds in existence that costs very little and is available everywhere is beyond me. Maybe just to be different?

One reason is long range competitors are going to smaller diameters for the reduced recoil to better spot shots. Quite a few have moved on from 6.5mm Creedmore and 6.5x47 Lapua to a bunch of different 6mm cartridges.

 

[Michael88]

One reason is long range competitors are going to smaller diameters for the reduced recoil to better spot shots. Quite a few have moved on from 6.5mm Creedmore and 6.5x47 Lapua to a bunch of different 6mm cartridges.

I do have a 13lbs Savage .308 with a muzzle brake that makes the rifle feel like a lightweight .223. With a proper muzzle brake you can tame the recoil by up to 75%

But spotting shots is really hard and my opinion not worth to consider. I once had a .22lr and I could just about spot the impacts at 100 meters with 9x magnification, even with its barely noticeable recoil it still moved a lot. If you want to be able to spot your shots at those distances you need a very heavy rifle, with a very small caliber, a good brake and most importantly little magnification. But thats all contra productive to shooting long range, and smaller bullets are harder to spot. So stop trying to jump through hoops, get a rifle in a big accurate caliber and let a friend spot you. Thats how snipers do it too. Shooting long range is a team sport.

 

[Michael88]

Man thats really cool:

 

[Obelisk]

Man thats really cool:

What a lovely rifle and a cool action.

 

[Xavier2342]

Michael88 thank you so much for posting that info. Your post made me take a closer look into the argument of .308 WIN vs 6.5 Creedmoor from a ballistics standpoint. I wanted an apples to apples comparison of the two calibers with same the type of bullet, weight and barrel length. Fortunately I was able to find what I was looking for on Honardy's website and figured I'd share it with you guys. The closest bullet weights I could find for this comparison 6.5 Creedmoor 147 gr ELD Match and .308 Win 155 gr ELD Match. Below are screenshots of the ballistics data I found on Hornady's website with both rounds being fired from a 24" barrel. I'll also post links for each caliber to Hornady's website if you'd like to read more about them.

.308 Win 155 gr ELD Match
Source: https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/308-win-155-gr-eld-match#!/

6.5 Creedmoor147 gr ELD Match
Source: https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6.5-creedmoor-147-gr-eld-match#!/

 

[a6m5]

@Michael88 @Xavier2342 I could be wrong(a shocker), but I saw calibers like 6.5 Creedmoor as rounds that are comparable to .308, but compatible with more compact AR15 & M4 platform? I didn't realize how much bigger & heavier my Bushmaster 308 was compared to AR15's until I bought a AR15 myself. I'm not familiar with the narrative on the 6.5, but my personal impression was that 6.5 Creedmoor wasn't necessary superior to .308, but you can get (near)identical performance out of a AR15/M4 rifles.

 

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 @Xavier2342 I could be wrong(a shocker), but I saw calibers like 6.5 Creedmoor as rounds that are comparable to .308, but compatible with more compact AR15 & M4 platform? I didn't realize how much bigger & heavier my Bushmaster 308 was compared to AR15's until I bought a AR15 myself. I'm not familiar with the narrative on the 6.5, but my personal impression was that 6.5 Creedmoor wasn't necessary superior to .308, but you can get (near)identical performance out of a AR15/M4 rifles.

No you're correct it is a round that is comparable to .308 that can be used in an AR10 platform with different barrel. From what I've read online it seems that majority of the people who are going from .308 to 6.5 are primarily precision shooters. Everybody else just all of us in this conversation don't really see the need for jumping ship when the .308 suits our needs.

Edit: I also forgot to mention the Walmart test you brought up a few posts ago. This is also a very big deal for me as well.

 

[a6m5]

Everybody else just all of us in this conversation don't really see the need for jumping ship when the .308 suits our needs.

Edit: I also forgot to mention the Walmart test you brought up a few posts ago. This is also a very big deal for me as well.

Yes, although I've been salivating over .300 Blackout upper on a daily basis now. I'm looking hard at Aero Precision upper, but I want a good deal on complete, with charging handle & bolt-carrier-group. Opticsplanet has good price right now, also another 10% off code, but without charging handle/BCG!

This caliber's expensive & not easy to come by, but damn it, I'm so into it right now.

Edit: Still little more than I want to pay.

Anderson Manufacturing or whatever's really cheap, but their review's been little mixed & I sure don't want to take any chances!

 

[Xavier2342]

a6m5 that sure escalated quickly, now you make me want to get one . Check out www.gun.deals to try and find the best prices on .300 BLK ammo.

 

[a6m5]

a6m5 that sure escalated quickly, now you make me want to get one . Check out www.gun.deals to try and find the best prices on .300 BLK ammo.

Is this like a deal finding referral site? Nice prices. 👍

 

[Xavier2342]

Is this like a deal finding referral site? Nice prices. 👍

Yep

 

[Xavier2342]