Realism vs. Realism and Driver Aids

[InfernalTyrant]

Well, now why do you say that? Where did anybody say anything about being better. It doesn´t make anybody a better person if they drive a game on a console with certain settings or not.

That's my point. They seem to think it makes them better though.

 

[Fastlap]

Plus this argument is not really about hotlapping. I would agree that you propably would not have an advantadge by using driving aids, unless there are special circumstances (wet track, bad tires, really unbalanced car, etc.).

But this is about online racing. And online racing in the end is not about who can set the fastest lap overall, but online racing is about who can drive fast and avoid making mistakes. Who can repeat the performance over and over again.

Hotlapping is a completetly different story.

 

[Fastlap]

LoL, Rugby is better than Football, it's mano a mano , no body armour:tup:

hehe, well in this analogy I would agree with you.

 

[Stotty]

First of all you have to read my post to the end. I said this: "The point is not necessarily that your laptimes get faster, but that your mistakes do not translate to a slower lap."

Second of all, I think the majority of players at the top obviously are hardcore racers, and most of the hardcore racers tend to turn all aids off. Therefore you do not find much aid-users at the top. Pretty logical if you think about it.

I do understand you point

At the end of the day it matters less in GT5... with the way the on-line is set up you'll be able to specify aids within the room set up options. If you don't want to race people using aids, that's fine... either set up your own room and ban them or look for a room where the owner has already set them as banned... that way you can be happy

I doubt most of the fastest drivers will be bothered on way or another though... their rooms will most likely have nothing more than power and weight restrictions, or will have a fixed car choice.

 

[Fastlap]

That's my point. They seem to think it makes them better though.

Yes I would agree with you that some people seem that way. That is more a question of character than racing style though.

I would say though, that no matter what profession or sport you look at, people who are more advanced tend to look "down" on people who are beginners.

A good chef might think of him as better than the aprentice he teaches.

Tiger Woods may think of himself as a better golfer than average joe.

And hardcore simracer tend to think of themselves as better than the aid-users.

Now does that make them better people? Definately not, propably worse actually.

Does that make them better drivers? Well, I kinda have to agree with that. You can be good at something and still be an a-hole.

 

[Stephen220378]

Now don´t be silly. I couldn´t check out the online mode of gt5 yet, since I don´t have internet in my new apartment yet (which sucks hard actually). But I assume that you can set certain rules for a race that you create like in every other racing game/sim?

If that is the case then I assume that there are races that allow aids, and some that don´t.

you can race against all the others that use aids as well, and imo this is the majority of racers out there.

I personally do not want to race against drivers that use driving aids because it makes the fact of beating them or get beaten kind of useless. Compare it to doping if you will. I am proud of the fact that I can race car x on track y with pretty quick times consistently. I know that it would be easier with traction control, since I wouldn´t be as careful with the throttle. But I choose not because I like the challenge of taming the car and learning to drive it.

Now if I race against people that did the same thing and they beat me, than I am perfectly fine with it and congratulate them. Maybe chatting with them after the race quickly about driving lines and braking points in order to find that extra 0.3 of a second. We share one mindset, we take simracing and motorsports in general seriously.

Now using driving aids is making the game easy enough for you to handle, this is a completely different mindset. You want to race with a murc, and because you think its to hard without the aids you just turn them on. Ok, I get that.

But I race these BECAUSE they are hard. I like to learn to drive them and to learn to anticipate its movements. And I personally want to measure myself against others that do the same.

And someone mentioned that Driving aids actually make you slower in GT5. Well for some special circumstances this may be true. But if you race with abs alone, you do have an advantadge. Include traction control and you do have a big advantadge. The point is not necessarily that your laptimes get faster, but that your mistakes do not translate to a slower lap.

You can´t oversteer a bit in that tricky corner in lap 5, because you got on the throttle a tiny bit too early, because the traction control prevents wheelspin.

If you drive without aids, you allways have to stay sharp. It´s a different ballgame. And I prefer racing against people who take their racing as serious as I do.

Yes, once you create a room online you can turn off the driving aids (except ABS I think?) but shouldn't it be the responsibility of the player who races without them to find a room set up in this way since like you said, people who turn them all off are the minority? instead of joining races where aids are allowed then bitch at someone who uses them and beats them in a race where it's clearly marked that driving aids are on.

In my opinion people who display this type of behaviour are just smartarses who thought they were so good that they would win regardless then got their ego dented and show it with anger towards the 'lesser driver' shall we call them.

It's all good that some people take their driving games seriously and want to compete against people on their own level but giving someone abuse for playing a game the way they want to online in a room thats rules are set up for their needs is a bit much. Personally I don't take any video game seriously, I'm better at some than others but mostly competitive at the ones I play, Medal of Honor for example is one where I consistantly post top 3 on each game but I'm not going to cry about it if someone who's a 'lesser player' than me constantly keeps killing me with a noob tube the whole round and screws up my score.

 

[Fastlap]

I do understand you point

At the end of the day it matters less in GT5... with the way the on-line is set up you'll be able to specify aids within the room set up options. If you don't want to race people using aids, that's fine... either set up your own room and ban them or look for a room where the owner has already set them as banned... that way you can be happy

I doubt most of the fastest drivers will be bothered on way or another though... their rooms will most likely have nothing more than power and weight restrictions, or will have a fixed car choice.

Nice, and thank you for the discussion 👍 I look forward to finally race GT5 online. Plus I have ordered a new wheel after my beloved DFP is finally falling apart. I have ordered the fanatec gt3 rs V2 wheel beginning of october and finally a few days ago I got an email that it is being shipped!!

 

[Stotty]

You can be good at something and still be an a-hole.

You can also be good at something and be a decent person or not so good at something and be an a-hole


Over the past 3 years of playing Prologue I've raced with, and chatted to most of the top European racers and a lot of the top drivers from other parts of the World. With very, very few exceptions I have found these individuals to be absolutely top guys... these people are not arrogant because they are faster than the vast majority... in fact most of them would jump in a public room and they would wait at the side of the track if they were having a good race with someone they didn't know and their opponent fell off.

For me, it's the level below this where the arrogance comes in. People who think they are fast/good, but aren't quite as fast or good as they think!

There's always going to be someone faster than you, no matter how quick you are. Everyone needs to learn to live with that

 

[X-Frame]

How exactly does ASM, TCS, and whatever other aids slow the car down?

 

[Fastlap]

Yes, once you create a room online you can turn off the driving aids (except ABS I think?) but shouldn't it be the responsibility of the player who races without them to find a room set up in this way since like you said, people who turn them all off are the minority? instead of joining races where aids are allowed then bitch at someone who uses them and beats them in a race where it's clearly marked that driving aids are on.

In my opinion people who display this type of behaviour are just smartarses who thought they were so good that they would win regardless then got their ego dented and show it with anger towards the 'lesser driver' shall we call them.

It's all good that some people take their driving games seriously and want to compete against people on their own level but giving someone abuse for playing a game the way they want to online in a room thats rules are set up for their needs is a bit much. Personally I don't take any video game seriously, I'm better at some than others but mostly competitive at the ones I play, Medal of Honor for example is one where I consistantly post top 3 on each game but I'm not going to cry about it if someone who's a 'lesser player' than me constantly keeps killing me with a noob tube the whole round and screws up my score.

Oh you are absolutely right on the money with this one. If I join room that allows aids I have no right to bitch about it afterwards. Definately. But then again there are many ego driven a-holes in the world that just can´t stand to loose and try to find excuses no matter what.

 

[Fastlap]

There's always going to be someone faster than you, no matter how quick you are. Everyone needs to learn to live with that

You are so right with this one! As soon as you learn to accept this fact, you will live with a lot less frustration and race with a lot less pressure.

My goal in a race is allways to be the fastest guy in this race on this day. But I know that there are lots of people somewhere around the world that would sooo kick my ass.

 

[Stephen220378]

Oh you are absolutely right on the money with this one. If I join room that allows aids I have no right to bitch about it afterwards. Definately. But then again there are many ego driven a-holes in the world that just can´t stand to loose and try to find excuses no matter what.

Exactly. In my opinion there should be a dedicated section online (not just rooms you find yourself) for people who want to race without driver aids, for example you choose 'standard' or 'professional' mode when you click online where professional is totally without aids.

 

[Grayfox]

the ASM feels weird to me

but if i drive a powerful car i have TCS on 1 or 2

 

[Ratel]

To say that having driver aids such as ABS, TCS, ASM makes the gae unrealistic is stupid, they are implemented the same way they are in the real world(not fully with TCS and ABS but the result on the wheels is the same), skid recovery force on the other hand is a total different realm of physics.

 

[reece22345]

In real life you would turn TCS off, provided you can control the car you'll go faster. Don't forget in real life though, you have feedback from the movement of the car through your seat which you don't get, even through FF wheels like a G27.

Because your lacking that extra-sensory input, I think it's entirely reasonable for a little aid in-game, it can account for what's lacking and GT5 isn't a pure simulation anyway. Turning all the aids off and going "look I spin out when I go around a corner" doesn't mean your racing like in reality.

Just play with whatever settings you have fun on, and leave others to bitch and moan about how unfair it is while you have fun.

 

[Stotty]

How exactly does ASM, TCS, and whatever other aids slow the car down?

Traction control (TC)
TC cuts the power when the it feels the wheels start to spin. If you have TC on 1 it's pretty useless... by the time it kicks in you're already sideways. If you set it at something like 5 (the level needed to enable you to just jump on the gas without fear of spinning) it cuts the power to a level where you don't accelerate as quickly coming out of a corner as someone not using it. And exit speed it THE key factor in running fast laps.

TC set at 5 in GT5P felt much like my experience of using TC systems in real cars. I believe some modern systems (particularly on newer model Ferrari's - 599GTO, 458 Italia) are more sophisticated. These systems are somewhat intelligent in that they will allow a tiny bit of slip and maintain this level of control even when the grip levels change during a corner.

Stability Control (ASM)
Stability control works by braking individual wheels to stop a car either under or over steering... so if a car is understeering it can apply the brakes to an individual wheel to bring the car back on line. It makes you slower as it's applying the brakes when you don't want it to... a lot of the time you want to induce a bit of lift-off oversteer to get the car pointed at the apex... but if you try to do this with ASM you will get understeer as the ASM will try and stop the rear sliding (or vice versa).

In a road car ASM is a brilliant safety feature. Example... I have a 911. They are known for wanting to spin if you have to come off the gas sharply when the suspension is loaded in a turn. A couple of months ago I was driving at speed on the M40, I hit some deep standing water with one rear tyre, the rear aquaplaned and I found myself fairly well sideways at 80-85mph. I wasn't expecting it and without PSM I would probably have spun several times (more than likely hitting the barrier or other cars), but before I could do much more than instinctively wind on half a turn of oppostite lock the PSM had caught it and got me straight again... I continued at much reduced pace and changed my underpants as soon as I got home!

 

[SgtWhitten]

I have all aids off but ABS 1.

TCS I find makes me slower so thats why thats off. As for the ASM I haven't really played with that one but its been off. I find that learning the cars handling with just raw power and steering input is more rewarding/ fun FOR ME I hasten to add.

You just have to remember its a game and it has to be fun for you whatever it takes otherwise it defeats the object.

As for realism of driver aids, i have no clue.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yes, once you create a room online you can turn off the driving aids (except ABS I think?) but shouldn't it be the responsibility of the player who races without them to find a room set up in this way since like you said, people who turn them all off are the minority? instead of joining races where aids are allowed then bitch at someone who uses them and beats them in a race where it's clearly marked that driving aids are on.

In my opinion people who display this type of behaviour are just smartarses who thought they were so good that they would win regardless then got their ego dented and show it with anger towards the 'lesser driver' shall we call them.

It's all good that some people take their driving games seriously and want to compete against people on their own level but giving someone abuse for playing a game the way they want to online in a room thats rules are set up for their needs is a bit much. Personally I don't take any video game seriously, I'm better at some than others but mostly competitive at the ones I play, Medal of Honor for example is one where I consistantly post top 3 on each game but I'm not going to cry about it if someone who's a 'lesser player' than me constantly keeps killing me with a noob tube the whole round and screws up my score.

I don't get how using aids such as TC and ASM is an advantage in terms of speed. These aids usually slow you down in terms of getting the power down early or being agressive through corners. That's why most people turn them off to get Gold times in challenges or licenses as it is a lot harder with them aids on. The only advantage is stability regardless of how hard you are on the power and also usually gives consistently better starts if it is a standing start.

I don't mind getting beaten on raw pace (There are many people who are insanely fast, regardless of how much they practised or not.), but it annoys me when people cheat to win by taking shortcuts through corners like in Suzuka turns 3 or 4 through the gravel. Also people trying to take the rear end of your car out. I haven't played GT5 online yet but I hope the penalties are a bit better and not penalise the drivers who drive cleanly. I think they also fixed the ridiculous slipstreaming from GT5P which made you want to stay second instead of first until the last corner.

If you are on about SRF aid then I understand but that just changes the physics in the game. Does this make the online room compulsory to use the SRF as it changes the physics of the game?

 

[Beliall]

Seriously, I don't get this attitude.

Without wanting to sound big headed, I'm a reasonably quick driver in GT games (GTPlanet Division 1, GT Academy 2010 UK National Finalist, can hold my own with anyone in on-line racing), and I have no issues racing people using whatever driver aids they want.

The physics model in GT games punishes people for using aids by slowing the car down... so why is it an advantage for people to use aids? You should be able to beat them easily if you're not using them.

Absolutly right. However, the main disadvantage of using no assists, is getting hit by other drivers. Your more likely to spin out uncontrollably.

 

[StarEye]

I use ASM for some cars. I guess proper tuning would probably fix it, but otherwise the Shelby GT350R is a bit too easy to spin out for me.

 

[Biggles]

I don't know about realism, but it's much more fun with all aids off - including ABS. However, the implementation of brake travel with a wheel (at about 10% of the available movement) is one one of the flaws in GT5. Hopefully it will get patched at some point.

I think the default settings for GT5 should reflect the RL set-up of the car, which you can then alter to suit your personal preferences.

 

[Bigbazz]

If you're really fast with driving aids on, you will be really fast with them off with a little practice. In some cars its an advantage to use them, in others it isnt. Its merely seen as a sign of extra skill, as cars can be alot more difficult to drive without the aids, and thus it has developed into a snobbery.


People were confused as to how the top GT5P/GT Academy drivers/players and top Forza 3 drivers/players could be so fast in the real PC sims, as i believe there were popular names from both at the top of the list in Ferrari Virtual Academy.

If you're fast you're fast, pretty much.

 

[Exorcet]

Okay, fair enough, here is my question though, who in his right mind would drive their real live Ferrari or SLS or whatever with all driver aids switched off?
So, who has the more 'real' driver experience here?

I wouldn't drive any other way on the track. I don't care if end up getting lapped by rusted Honda Civics. I'll drive with the aids off and I'll either learn to drive or not.

The only car I've driven in a competitive manner is a FSAE. It has no driver aids, but it's light and has a lot of grip relative to power (still easy enough to spin though). Playing GT actually helped me drive the car. If not for the physics, just because I had an idea of the proper racing line. I've never spun it, though a few people have pushed them too far when driving for the first time.

And mocking people for using Driver aids is pretty stupid. So is saying its not real when half of the road cars today use them.

 

[niky]

In a road car ASM is a brilliant safety feature. Example... I have a 911. They are known for wanting to spin if you have to come off the gas sharply when the suspension is loaded in a turn. A couple of months ago I was driving at speed on the M40, I hit some deep standing water with one rear tyre, the rear aquaplaned and I found myself fairly well sideways at 80-85mph. I wasn't expecting it and without PSM I would probably have spun several times (more than likely hitting the barrier or other cars), but before I could do much more than instinctively wind on half a turn of oppostite lock the PSM had caught it and got me straight again... I continued at much reduced pace and changed my underpants as soon as I got home!

It's an interesting thing... I've driven cars with aids on and off both on the road and on the track... on the track... most of the time they slow you down. On the road... like here, they can be a God-send. Had a Hyundai Genesis Coupe for a week, a car known to have a relatively soft and twitchy rear-end. Was frustrated that the traction and stability control would kick in intermittently over rough pavement, even though the car was nowhere close to being "on the edge".

After scouting out the edges of the car's handling envelope, and satisfied that the car was benign enough not to kill me below 9/10ths, I turned the nannies off for the day. An hour later, it was raining cats and dogs. Overtaking a semi at less than half-throttle, at rpms below the threshold where the "wild cams" take over, I suddenly found myself with a half turn of 'oppo' pointing the wrong way. Can't quite recall which way that was, but with a semi on one side and a concrete wall on the other and a 2 meter wide car travelling diagonally down a 2.2 meter wide lane... I suppose you could say either way would be wrong! With the aids back on, the car would still skip briefly over puddles, but wouldn't pitch out sideways any more.

-

But on the track... aids suck. They slow you down if you brake too late... they slow you down if you get on the gas too early... they prevent you from pitching the car sideways to get pointed sooner (in hairpins and technical sections). I don't know why people complain about torque-vectoring on these all-wheel-drive cars... it doesn't really help in the tight corners, and on the long corners, it's not that much more of an advantage than AWD and a good LSD already are. Heck... many of these systems are marketed as electronic LSDs... but e-LSDs that use brakes are nowhere near as good as mechanical or electronically controlled mechanical LSDs.

On the really powerful and twitchy cars, aids are definitely necessary, though, and if a car comes with aids in real life, I may or may not use them in the game. Or I may simply use a car that I can drive at the absolute limit without them.

 

[Miths]

I've started using ABS at 1 in an increasing number of cars. Brake pedal sensitivity in this game is just too high for my taste, I can barely tap the brake (standard G25 pedals) without 50% or higher brake pressure being applied, which is enough to lock up the wheels in many cars.
I can drive that way - and did so for my first many hours in the game where I stuck to my "no aids" rule - but having to be so extremely gentle with my foot just started getting on my nerves in a number of my favourite cars.

 

[jimmywizz]

Seriously, I don't get this attitude.

Without wanting to sound big headed, I'm a reasonably quick driver in GT games (GTPlanet Division 1, GT Academy 2010 UK National Finalist, can hold my own with anyone in on-line racing), and I have no issues racing people using whatever driver aids they want.

The physics model in GT games punishes people for using aids by slowing the car down... so why is it an advantage for people to use aids? You should be able to beat them easily if you're not using them.

+1

my take on all this is: hoarses for courses, I think? I try my best to drive with all assists off with ABS at 1. but some of the cars are just animals and I have no problem admiting that i'll put the TCS on for some of the more powerfull sports cars. But as Stotty points out, in reality they slow you down. So if your that good that you can drive with all assists off you shouldn't have a problem beating people with them on.

 

[reaperman]

I like driver aids because they help me with problems related to unusually high speeds, unfamiliar cars and driving conditions I can't sense through the game.

I also respect the fact that there are those who don't like driver aids or the people who use them. I know this because if the only truth was that racing with aids off is faster, nobody would mind me being in their room. Heck, I've seen a lot of 'aids restricted' non-racing practice rooms. That's pure bigotry.

All that's fine though, since I've learned that I'd rather not spend time around people like that either. GT5 doesn't help us segregate ourselves at all. I have to join a room just to see what aids aren't allowed. Then half the time my 'exit lobby' button doesn't work and I have to restart the game. Why can't I filter out rooms that don't use the aids I have switched on?

edit: Oh and to all the aids-haters out there, you might want to consider leaving 'driving lines' as an option for other players. They're all public lobbies, and half the game's users probably don't realize it's off until a race starts. When they forget to brake, you all get punted off at the first corner.

 

[MidianGTX]

Lots of real cars use aids, some don't. The level of realism varies, but tuning the game to your liking is the true meaning of keeping it real. Don't listen to the elitists, they probably take their gear sticks to bed with them.

 

[Stotty]

After scouting out the edges of the car's handling envelope, and satisfied that the car was benign enough not to kill me below 9/10ths, I turned the nannies off for the day. An hour later, it was raining cats and dogs. Overtaking a semi at less than half-throttle, at rpms below the threshold where the "wild cams" take over, I suddenly found myself with a half turn of 'oppo' pointing the wrong way. Can't quite recall which way that was, but with a semi on one side and a concrete wall on the other and a 2 meter wide car travelling diagonally down a 2.2 meter wide lane... I suppose you could say either way would be wrong! With the aids back on, the car would still skip briefly over puddles, but wouldn't pitch out sideways any more.

On the really powerful and twitchy cars, aids are definitely necessary, though, and if a car comes with aids in real life, I may or may not use them in the game. Or I may simply use a car that I can drive at the absolute limit without them.

Quite... remembering which way you were pointing seems a bit irrelevent when you're trying to stop yourself having a coronary!! Does sound like the Genisis might need some 'suspension tuning by Lotus' though.

I consider myself to be a decent enough driver. I'm 43 years old, have covered well over 1.2 million miles since I passed my test 25 years ago, I have kart racing experience, I've done single venue rallys in a V8 powered Opel Manta 400, various track days, driven single seaters up to FPA level and I've had some pretty decent road cars too... but I fully believe in the benefit of aids on road cars.

I've read stuff in the past on here; people saying 'aids have ruined cars', 'I always turn mine off' etc etc etc... but most of the people writting this stuff have never driven anything other than front wheel drive with 150bhp max. In that sort of car you car pretty much do what you want with the throttle without much fear... try driving something with RWD that won't take full beans on corner exits in the dry... then try and drive it quickly in the wet... and then tell me you don't benefit from the safety net of TC.

Too much testosterone and an excess of BS IMO

On the road, stability control and traction control are fabulous safety features (almost at the same level as ABS). On a track though, they ruin the experience.

 

[Biggles]

I've started using ABS at 1 in an increasing number of cars. Brake pedal sensitivity in this game is just too high for my taste, I can barely tap the brake (standard G25 pedals) without 50% or higher brake pressure being applied, which is enough to lock up the wheels in many cars.
I can drive that way - and did so for my first many hours in the game where I stuck to my "no aids" rule - but having to be so extremely gentle with my foot just started getting on my nerves in a number of my favourite cars.

Agreed. ABS on 1 makes a BIG difference - takes away all the difficulty of controlling the car under heavy braking. This is one of the things that makes GT5 superior to Prologue, where you couldn't remove ABS completely for some reason. However, the implementation of brake travel (G25) in GT5 is just terrible - the brakes lock with just 10% to 20% of movement & no way to adjust it. I'm hoping that PD fixes this in a patch - its another of the significant little problems marring GT5 at this point.

I drive without ABS because it's just more interesting that way, but it involves "tickling" the brake pedal in a very unrealistic way.