RIDOX Replica Garage-In Memory of TurnLeft-GT40,300ZX,F430,TVR,AEM S2000,Cizeta,TransAm Doug Nash

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Ridox2JZGTE, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    No, he said GT5 and 6 are terrible representations of all rear engined cars,perhaps reading all of the post's might help.
     
  2. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Actually I read "all", understand his opinion, but that tune used on video is totally different than YB on stock.
    Wheel alignment changes really much, real Porsche style LSD and reduced brake force suits on old fashion soft suspension without upsetting car balance, as it should.
    It has all Porsche characteristics, but not overdone like stock.
    I'll bet at it beats many other Sims YB's.

    No problem, his loss, not mine.
     
  3. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Yes I'm sure it's his loss! He get's to drive real one's, and we get to drive pretend ones?:sly: Tell me you didn't say real Porsche style LSD on a Yellowbird. Ok I've read enough.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  4. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Porsche has wicked way to use LSD comparing to commonly seen RWD locks, it has less locking on acceleration than deceleration, locking rate 40/60 on older ones is common, newer ones have still same lower acc, somewhere close 23/40 is used on newer street models.
    But you probably start now telling ramp angles etc.. Sorry but not on Porsche case.. ;)
     
  5. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I'm curious as to how you have used a specific car setup to change the GT6 physics engine?

    The issue GT6 has with rear engined cars is down to how the core physics engine behaves and I simply don't see how you can get around that.
     
  6. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    GT6 physics engine isn't direct reason for unwanted behavior, tire model, tire grip, tire bouncing are key on YB problems, same problems are in other drivetrain vehicles too.
    On my quick fix there is big role on low brake force by bias setting, GT6 brakes are from space comparing to 80's brakes, but modelling that era car with "righ tension springs" gives really soft suspension, low power brakes just aren't shaking lot on springs during deceleration, less time used on braking and quicker reaction is asked from suspension, but youv probably get my point now.

    Tire angles between road are quite limited in GT6, mean if you want grip there, i.e. YB setup works fine on 121mm height with CS tires,-drop or lift one millimeter and you'll find, "bottoming, causing early grip loss and slide" and other way and "over swing, roll goes over making late grip loss and slide". All just because of angle of tire and modeled "softness" of tire.

    LSD is wicked too, it's not only acc and dec independently, it's relation between those, and one relation between init too. Basically if you have "working" lsd on GT6 you can use any lock of same ratio on it with success, giving wanted behaviour, in rate of stiffness vs. Effectiveness.
    On YB there is good lock ratio between acc/dec what works on that track width.
    Btw working lock on current track width could be reversed also, meaning ed even flipping acc/dec values on GT6 will work, effect of work goes opposite, but it won't break traction due locking.


    So nothing changes physics engine, pouring hot water from tap will still give you hot water, but if you never have tried to mix hot with decent amount cold water you probably keep tap broken.
     
  7. Jimmy Haight

    Jimmy Haight

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    58
    Gee i wish GTP would give us a dislike button, it would really come in handy when penso and jimbag start wasting space (again) no offence of course
     
    Ridox2JZGTE likes this.
  8. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Lotus Carlton '90

    Tuned to replicate Lotus Carlton

    Comfort Hard to Sports Medium



    LotusCarlton.jpg


    CAR : Lotus Carlton '90
    Tire : Comfort Hard to Sports Medium


    Specs Heaviest Running Weight/Official Power

    Horsepower: 377 HP / 382 PS at 5100 RPM
    Torque: 415.2 ft-lb at 4200 RPM
    Power Limiter at : 95.7%
    Weight: 1785 kg
    Ballast : 145 kg
    Ballast Position : -33
    Weight Distribution : 61 / 39
    Performance Points: 466




    GT AUTO
    NO Oil change
    Improve Body Rigidity - NOT INSTALLED
    Wheels : Standard Size Stock
    Car Paint : Imperial Green Metallic or Steel Silver


    Tuning Parts Installed :
    Catalytic Converter Sports
    Adjustable LSD
    Fully Customizable Suspension
    Carbon Hood ( Body Cplor )
    Window Weight Reduction



    Suspension - Adapted Springs
    Lotus Carlton/Omega Factory Alignment Range

    Front, Rear

    Ride Height: 120 120
    Spring Rate: 7.50 5.00
    Dampers (Compression): 4 5
    Dampers (Extension): 1 3
    Anti-Roll Bars: 1 1
    Camber Angle: 0.9 2.7 - Optional 1.1 2.0 or 0.9 2.0
    Toe Angle: 0.00 0.08



    USE STOCK LSD or
    LSD - Carlton LSD
    Initial Torque : 18
    Acceleration Sensitivity: 33
    Braking Sensitivity: 18




    Brake Balance:
    5/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 3/3, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.


    Recommended setting for DS3 user :

    Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/5 brake balance as starting point.



    Notes :

    Tested at various tracks, Trial Mountain 1:56s, Matterhorn Short 31s, Deep Forest 1:41s, all on CH.

    The Goodyear Eagle F1 should be similar to CM or CS, but the car is great even on CH tire.

     
  9. GT6champNK_69

    GT6champNK_69

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    738
    What an coincidence Ridox:), I have also made a replica of Lotus Carlton/Omega. I see that you have used a softer suspension than me. I have the actual spring rate, if you are interested. Glad to see you still are making work, after all that shooting at you. :cheers:
     
    Dietrich likes this.
  10. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    I used the spring rate from the old GT5 build, this GT6 version basically a direct conversion :) Even damper, ARB and alignment are the same, the GT6 version is also faster on same tire ( CH ), at least at Trial Mountain :p If you could let me know the actual spring rate, that would be great :) I only know that the Carlton uses Red and Brown spring that I got from old service manual and training manual books.

    Regarding power, I knew from my days back in Oz that the Carlton had underrated power claim ( like some turbo cars do ), 377HP or 382PS was not really the actual power, it had more, likely over 400HP, especially when running on high octane fuel ( 98 or more ), my guess in the vicinity of 420-440HP on stock boost with 98 octane fuel.

    Recent cars with similar underrated power is BMW M4, which has more than 500HP even on 91 octane fuel ( US AKI ), and 991.2 Carrera S, which has 460+HP ( not even counting higher octane fuel )
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
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  11. GT6champNK_69

    GT6champNK_69

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    738
    Interesting, I didn't know that:tup:, I am not playing GT6 now, I will give you the spring rate next time I play. You mean in aftermarket spec, or does the octane give the car that much power, I'm certain that the spec information I gathered it stated 377 bhp. :cheers:
     
  12. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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  13. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    377HP is official stat from manufacturer, no sure the condition of the measurement.
    Turbo cars power varied heavily depending on many circumstances, official stat often done in specific set of situation ( fuel quality, intake charge temp, engine or chassis dyno etc ). 377HP may be from chassis dyno, which means more at the engine, the fuel quality also not clear, but at the time, most fuel are in 89-95 octane quality, often 91 octane used as base of reference ( the octane available in most countries, and which I do not like ). JDM cars need at least 98 octane ( Shell ) at least that's what I have ran on cars back in Oz, no less than 98 octane to avoid detonation, I often use octane booster as well on top 98 fuel. Oh, often JDM turbo cars are set to run rich in mixture even on stock ECU. 98 fuel made a world of difference on cars like Skyline, RX7, Supras imports which run JDM ECU.

    This is one aspect that really wish to be implemented in racing games, fuel quality affect power. In drag racing game, even the old one like import drag racing ( NIRA ) had this feature. Another one is turbo + engine dynamic relationship, heat +power loss, intake charge temp, water+oil temp, so when increasing boost, there's dynamic changes to the car power and it's delivery, not just suddenly blown up or damaged after some time.

    Stock boost for Lotus Carlton is 0.55 Bar, there's fuel injector pulse protection when boost reached 0.98 Bar ( overboost ).
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  14. GT6champNK_69

    GT6champNK_69

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    738
    Correct mate. I sit have a talk with my friend who also do some car racing, and build his own race car.
    You are absolutely right, when using high octane fuel, with a booster oil it increases the engine flow, it cleans the engine. But it isn't permanent, you have to do it over time right?:cheers::tup:
     
  15. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    Octane booster simply increases octane number, not much though , I used it as a extra precaution :lol: Did have to use it regularly in every full tank fill up, then oil change every 2000-3000km ( just to be safe with the way we youngsters drive back in the day, where the rpm needle often in the top half of rev range :lol: ). The spark plugs were crazy though, they were changed in every oil change too, never underestimate the importance of good ignition.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  16. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Above is part of bigger article:
    https://www.carthrottle.com/post/engineering-explained-high-vs-low-octane-petrol/

    Simple answer isn't always only answer.. ;)

    Edit: one addition more, just to be sure at you know what knock means, then checking cars timing, how it's going by default you'll find compromise in there, often on high rpm area on stock timing, there's that "hidden" horsepower hiding what you could find with better octane fuel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
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  17. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Johnnypenso, coryclifford and ALB123 like this.
  18. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Just added more on earlier message, reminding that compromise what's normal on factory timing on stock car. Timing on stock car is targeted on low/mid rpm with good fuel efficiency, using higher octane fuel you can utilise higher rpm better and gain few extra horses from there, also remembering at it's not free, it will cost on low rpm 's
     
  19. GT6champNK_69

    GT6champNK_69

    Messages:
    738
    I have the springs for the Lotus Carlton Ridox. F. 10.72kg R. 10.72kg.:D
    Standard bb 4/2
    Dampers Compression: 3 4
    Anti-Roll Bar: 3 1
    Twin-Plate Clutch
    1748 kg
    F. Sports: Medium
    R. Sports: Soft
    Car Paint: Motorsport Black

    Hope it is to your using:)
     
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  20. ALB123

    ALB123

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    The BMW M4 certainly packs more punch than its rated 425hp, but it absolutely does not produce 500hp or more. Not stock. My brother owns a 2016 M4. He flew from Tennessee, USA to the BMW factory for what's called "European Delivery" here in the States. That includes a tour of the factory, including the chance to speak with various BMW technicians & engineers.

    Take any BMW M4 off a lot and throw it on a Dyno and you're bound to get readouts of anything in the 410hp-425hp range. Taking into account drive train loss, 99% chance that the highest converted hp figure the M4 will give someone is maybe 470hp. Not only has this been documented by several M4 owners - just check out Bimmerpost.com, Bimmerfest.com or any other reputable BMW owner's forum. You will not find a single owner with verifiable proof of 500hp from a stock M4 engine. I just got off the phone with my brother to reconfirm and he reminded me once again about conversations he has personally had with the engineers of the BMW M4 project when he did his European Delivery, which is an all-day affair at the BMW Factory where you actually pick up the car.

    Octane is a just a measurement of how much compression the fuel can take before igniting. If a modern car is not designed with this in mind (computer & engine capability), running higher octane fuel is just going to empty your wallet faster and give you no performance increases.

    Having said that, Octane Ratings are measured differently based on location. Australia & Europe use the same Octane Rating (RON) system while Canada & USA use a slightly different Octane Rating (R+M/2) system. For example, 98 Octane in EU/AUS is going to be around 93 Octane here in the US or CAN. If you were unsatisfied with 91 Octane in Australia, it's easy to see why, that would probably translate into roughly 86/87 Octane here in the US and we don't even sell anything that low.
     
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  21. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Rough estimation gives 420+ whp 500+ at crank..
    (mon+ron)/2 = aki, not (mon+ron/2)
    I had understanding at 87 octane(aki) is sold in states.
     
  22. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Really?A few extra horses. Not 30 to 40 HP.
    Thanks,for the insight. Perhaps I'll look into getting an extra 40 HP out of my 65. Ha,Ha. You 2 make me chuckle.
     
  23. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    Car engines and computers are tuned with a certain octane in mind. It's all part of the whole system. Putting high octane fuel in a car asking for a regular octane does nothing but waste your money. Octane levels are all about burn and compression level.

    Go ahead and put 110 race gas in your car and tell me if there's any change in performance. You won't see it on a dyno. Been there. It does smell good though.

    And most cars these days change ignition timing and cam timing on the fly.

    And in Ohio, our "regular" octane level is 87.
     
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  24. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    On 500hp+ car wouldn't surprise me, personally latest differences from 200hp turbo and and 110hp na, both are stated by manufacturer 95octane(eu), and differences when driving with 98 or 99 is there, turbo engine was night and day when pushing hard, na engine less, more like losing lot, i mean lot of low rpm torque, giving minimal advantage on on last 1500 rpm. Turbo had solid cams, na with variable.

    But hey this is again things what you have to "feel".. Lol, luckily I'm not only who feel this, others have been on dyno.
     
  25. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    Butt dyno is worthless. Actual numbers from the same dyno on the same day at nearly the same time and conditions have proven that higher octane on the same engine that doesn't need it is worthless.
     
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  26. OdeFinn

    OdeFinn

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    Some engines this is true, others not.
    Not all engines benefit from higher (than manufacturer suggestion) octane, others do.
    Checking <- will show few examples how it can or cannot help to gain more power, or if you can accelerate faster with higher octave and there is no change on power then..well ok.. :)
     
  27. coryclifford

    coryclifford

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    I was standing next to the dyno. That's all the proof I need.

    I'm 41 and have lived a life based around cars and race cars since I was 15.

    My personal friends have won National Championships in various road racing classes with their dyno proven engines that have been tuned accordingly. I was a 7 time Autocross regional class champion. Believe me, we tried it all.
     
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  28. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Cory I've been around Drag racing since I can remember and I'm 54 .No need to point out obvious stuff. I've watched so many racers put a can of Octane boost in their cars,like never.
     
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  29. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    Did you ever read my post about the M4 and 991 Carrera S on AC thread ? I uploaded both dyno sheets ( Dynojet ). The M4 I uploaded is DCT model, 2015 M4, stock with 91 octane fuel ( which would be 95 RON ) and it was done by reputable tuning garage in California and the dynojet power correction from wheel to flywheel explained in the dyno readout brings it to over 500HP ( divide by 0.82 )

    . 14521393245_40893925e0_b.jpg


    Regarding octane, I know there's differences of fuel quality standard used between continents and I talked about octane (RON) used in Oz, I was also talking about JDM cars I drove a lot in Australia. Any lower than 98 Shell and cars like Skylines are more prone to detonation ( it was scary putting premium on these cars ), especially when running non stock boost levels ( most are :p, at least either of these exhaust, intercooler, BOV, ECU, S-AFC etc ), and I even had to take extra precaution putting octane booster to keep detonation at bay, because I know the Shell 98 is not really guarantee.
    JDM cars recommended fuel is 100 RON for max performance, though it can take lower, but the lower the fuel, it will go rich ( burns more fuel ), retard the timing and power loss ( when ECU detects knocking/detonation ) Turbo cars are more sensitive to fuel quality + power increase/decrease than NA cars.

    Sorry if I didn't put explanation about the M4 and Carrera S which were tested in the US.

    As for Lotus Carlton, here is a dyno session with stock car ( dyno dynamics which often reads lower than dynojet ) :



    and another dyno run with different dyno, 381HP at the wheel, which should translate at least 420HP at the engine ( using 10% loss )



    Back then, there's one Carlton imported in Australia that were up for sale asking for astronomical price, and the owner said about 430+HP with around 0.1 Bar boost increase, 0.8 Bar boost , apparently his Carlton ran 0.7 Bar stock boost, this is why I wrote 420-440 HP stock engine HP approximation. The Carlton max boost stock is 0.98 Bar before ECU cuts injector pulse.

    What often bothers me is manufacturer claims often just a number, no explanation in condition of measurement, like dyno ( engine or chassis ), fuel etc. The JDM 280PS gentlemen agreeement was even worse :lol:
     
  30. killerjimbag

    killerjimbag

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    Yes the reason HP ratings were not true in the 70's for insurance purposes.