Round 01: 24 Hours of Daytona

Discussion in 'GTP Sportscar Series Archive' started by AJ, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    65,059
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    :lol:
    @AJ has put a lot of hard work into creating not just this race but the entire Endurance Series - so why is his hard work in creating the event punishable by your ire?

    The reason the rule exists is for the same reason many of the rules exist - to enhance the realism of the series. In real life, exiting a closed pitlane isn't permitted (for safety reasons) and quite sternly punishable, while the requirement to finish the race after the chequered flag has fallen also exists in real life endurance racing. This is to prevent a car which might have a commanding lead from prophylactically pitting the vehicle to avoid a problem and winning while static in the pits. Have a look at the 14th, 15th and 16th place finishers in the famed 1991 24 Heures du Mans.

    Yes, it's unfortunate and yes it's extremely galling, but that doesn't make it wrong. The rules have been in place for some months now and we should all be familiar with them - not just the team managers, but the drivers who are taking part. The last driver broke the rules, just as he'd have done so if he'd been 1hp over or 1kg under the limits set out in the BOP section, and all of his hard work and the hard work of the team and of every other driver in the event has been undone.


    It's your prerogative to not show any interest in any series whose rules you don't agree with, so the ensuing bullet-pointed list doesn't seem particularly relevant. However, please bear in mind that your last point is in direct conflict with your obligations as a GTPlanet member. You may choose to do what you wish with this information.
    Oddly, they weren't outside the scope of the rules in doing so. There is nothing to say in the rules that the Roadster cannot be modified in this fashion, only that the lobby would be created with Tuning Prohibited. That the lobby was in error is not a fault on behalf of the team but on behalf of @AJ - which is why that time has not been rescinded.

    I also took part in that race and that qualifying session - and I was 0.2s quicker than the pole position time in online practice later in a Tuning Prohibited lobby at the same time of day, so I don't think it was actually an advantage. Unless I'm just awesome and tweaking the gearbox got them up towards my level - which I seriously doubt :lol:
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
    SK8RBOI, scca_ziptie, rcb929 and 7 others like this.
  2. TNR_KING_FILO

    TNR_KING_FILO

    Messages:
    1,672
    Location:
    Philippines
    so tuning wasn't prohibited? if it wasn't set in the lobby i would say they took the advantage and took all the frowning it may carry in a SPEC series
     
  3. StigsTC

    StigsTC

    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    Australia
    If we watched the livestream, the GTMX car indeed DID leave the pitlane after the pit lane had closed and DID complete the race.
    Thus they broke the rules, and the maximum penalty is a 10 minute stop go.
    GTMX only do not finish the race if they RETROACTIVELY abide by the rule that says they cannot leave the pits after the chequered flag.
    Thus if they break the rules, they should receive a penalty AND BE CLASSIFIED.

    EDIT: I am incorrect. After re-watching the livestream footage I am able to determine my recollection of events was inaccurate, and the GTMX car did not cross the line again after exiting the pits 'illegally', due to being directed back to the bus stop by officials when they attempted to finish their race.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
    JayOTT likes this.
  4. Furi

    Furi Premium

    Messages:
    43,758
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I got to admit, instances like this are the exact reason I won't do something like this, it's so over regulated it's unreal. I'll agree however that the team in question were severely unlucky.
     
    psychoazubi, Carbonox and JayOTT like this.
  5. TNR_KING_FILO

    TNR_KING_FILO

    Messages:
    1,672
    Location:
    Philippines
    GTMX have accepted the results as they stand, as I believe AJ wouldn't have published the results without everyone accepting them.
     
  6. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    65,059
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's not a penalty - it's simply a failure to meet the conditions for classification...
    They didn't do this - their race ended at the pitlane exit - so can't be classified.
     
  7. StigsTC

    StigsTC

    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    Australia
    Let me be clear.
    The GTMX car did not stop at the end of the pitlane. The livestream clearly shows them leaving the pits.
    The GTMX car DID drive around the track and finish the lap to take the flag, despite pitlane being closed.
    They are only deemed to have been not classified if we agree they abided by the rules and did not exit the pits after the chequered flag is shown.
    However they did not abide by this rule.
    Thus they finished the race.
    However in order to have finished the race, they must have gone past a closed pit exit.
    This is a violation of rules.
    For violating the rules penalties of between 30 seconds and 10 minutes can be handed out.
    Even if it means giving them a penalty, according to the events that we all watched GTMX should be classified.
    Where they finish is up to AJ based on how severe a penalty is for leaving the pits when pit exit is closed.

    EDIT: I am wrong, I thought GTMX passed the line in the pits at the end of the race, I am wrong. Apologies, I thought I'd found the way to get GTMX their position back, but the garage is on the wrong side of the line. They were directed BACK to the bus stop by race officials when GTMX-Hecto1 asked if he should go back or complete his lap, despite having not finished the race, and then entered the pits and stopped before the line.
    Again, apologies for being completely wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2015
    scca_ziptie, Famine and JayOTT like this.
  8. TeamEdge702

    TeamEdge702

    Messages:
    435
    Location:
    United States
    Hmm quite the heated debate still. I dont see the point of arguing this still, the decision has been made, is a tough one? Yeah. But rules are rules and we all knew what we signed up for well before the race started.

    To help move on from this situation heres a picture of Kimi Raikkonen, and he's smiling

    image.jpg
     
  9. Pedroeol

    Pedroeol

    Messages:
    237
    Location:
    Portugal
    This is really a surprise but we have to accept it, it's in the rules and so we can't blame AJ & others for doing this, actually we just have to be thankfull to GTP ES team that do this for "free" and bring a lot more excitment to the game and provide good entertainment to many of us.

    Me and our team (TWR) we had no idea how the results were standing by the end but we did few mistakes in the last stints so we knew that GTMX could be leading, they really did a good job throughout the race but the end result is a shame and there's nothing that we can do about it.

    We are not happy about the way we won but I also think TWR made a good job and deserves congratulations for the race, it was our first experience and we learnt a lot from this, we had good battles with GTMX and many others and 95% of them were clean.

    So despite GTMX standing as last and "Not Qualified" we wanna congratulate them for the good race and we are looking forward to meet them in future races.
     
    Nail-27, scca_ziptie, Brutaka and 8 others like this.
  10. NingDynasty

    NingDynasty

    Messages:
    769
    Location:
    United States
    Worked out the average lap time per stint for each driver during the Mighty Miata 2 Hour event. Obviously nerds can probably narrow it down closer but pretty cool stuff anyway.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. GTP_Dutchy

    GTP_Dutchy Premium

    Messages:
    2,256
    Location:
    Netherlands
    So I was doing a testrun today at Bathurst look what happened to me!!!
    I think this simulation thing is getting out of hand!
    Kangaroos.jpg
     
  12. Zii1993

    Zii1993

    Messages:
    2,172
    Location:
    United States
    Hey man even if you dodged the first look out for the second one at the top of the hill lol
     
    scca_ziptie, GTP Ziggy and GTP_Dutchy like this.
  13. True-blue-8

    True-blue-8

    Messages:
    6,799
    Sorry just had time to catch up

    First of all huge commiserations to GTMX. It's making me panic if something like this happens to us. But what they really deserve is a huge hand. Instead of going off in a huff (like we've already seen here) they've taken it on the chin. Although it's really unfair, it's the rules, and they stuck to them. A great example and something everyone can learn from :cheers:


    Finally, Bathurst! :D
     
  14. F1Racer68

    F1Racer68

    Messages:
    1,175
    Location:
    Canada
    As someone who also runs a league, I know only too well how difficult this must be on @AJ. I am sure that he is not happy about having to make the ruling he has had to make. Unfortunately, as others have said, "rules are rules", and AJ cannot make exceptions at any time as that is a very slippery game.

    As most here, I do truly feel bad for the members of the GTMX team. I was not in the race, but I did watch much of it. They had a great run and did a great job. I congratulate them on their effort and also commend them on their actions regarding this decision. I can only imagine what they are feeling, but to their credit, there has not been one negative word from them publicly.

    I also want to take a moment and commend @StigsTC . It takes a very mature and reasonable person to acknowledge a mistake. You have not only acknowledged it once, but you took the time and initiative to ensure that your correction was made to each and every post that you made. Your initial reaction and response was understandable at the time, but you also took the time to review the facts once they were available and to acknowledge that your original comments were in error. I thank you for that, and you have earned my respect as a result. I wish this site had more members with your attitude. :tup:

    @GTP_Dutchy :

    What can I say other than..... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :lol::lol::lol: Well done sir. Well done indeed. :tup:
     
    weescotman, NW48, TeamEdge702 and 6 others like this.
  15. Masterhec

    Masterhec

    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    United States
    HELLO EVERYBODY, we just want to say THANKS to all the people who have supported us. We are very disappointed with the resolution that was taken against us, but at the same time, we are aware that there are rules to follow, therefore we have no choice but to accept things as they are, but not before sharing the video of the last laps of our team, where everyone can see that our view, not committed any violation to the rules, because if all put attention and review the video of the start of the race, will be able to realize that it starts at 14:15 hrs. (on the clock track) and as everyone can see, I went out of pit lane before 14:15 hrs. (14:14 hrs.) In addition to the written messages only managed confusion in me, personally, I feel frustrated by my teammates, but at the same time, very proud of them, 24 hrs. the conditions we face and only 3 riders, I do not think it deserved to, but anyway, hope and put more care from the organizers in fulfilling the total time of the event. however, want to congratulate the team TWR victory, because without them maybe had not had enough motivation to push hard throughout the race, well done team TWR. And finally to motivate addition to alleviating some of this setback, I put a picture of our team as I should have been, thanks to all the organizers, who were transmitting, commentators and hearing everything, Escuderia GTMX, will go ahead.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pu7-Iqx65Xk
    DAYTONA.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2015
  16. dgriffin28

    dgriffin28

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    United States
    where everyone can see that our view, not committed any violation to the rules, because if all put attention and review the video of the start of the race, will be able to realize that it starts at 14:15 hrs. (on the clock track) and as everyone can see, I went out of pit lane before 14:15 hrs. (14:14 hrs.)
    I reviewed the video several times. As much as I was rooting for you, you did not leave pit lane till 4:15.03. But if AJ wants to get even more technical he might say that pit exit is all the way around to the infield therefore it would be 14:15.16.

    I am very sorry for what happened to your team. If you look at this pic it clearly shows you crossing the line at 14:15.03.

    image.jpg
     
  17. Animera

    Animera

    Messages:
    2,361
    Location:
    New Zealand
    The picture is confusing. It shows total race time as 24:15:03.959, while the local time clock on the left shows 14:14.
     
  18. dgriffin28

    dgriffin28

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    United States
    I am assuming that AJ was going from the total time cause if you see he called the checkered flag on the bottom left of the picture.
     
  19. Masterhec

    Masterhec

    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    United States
    I'M TALKING ABOUT THE LOCAL OR TRACK TIME, BECAUSE IF YOU REVIEW THE VIDEO WHEN THE RACE START, THE GREEN MESSAGE ARE EXACTLY AT 14:15.
     
  20. dgriffin28

    dgriffin28

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    United States
    Well if that is the case then appeal the penalty. That is enough for a case.
     
  21. Masterhec

    Masterhec

    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    United States
    This is the picture for the Start of the race.
    image.jpg

    I already do that, but doesn't work
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2015
  22. dgriffin28

    dgriffin28

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    United States
    I have sympathy for you and your team. I wish I could understand the process. Go win the next one. Again
     
  23. JayOTT

    JayOTT

    Messages:
    513
    It goes against my promise to leave this thread be but I must point out that GTMX was unable to cross the finish line due to a force majeure;

    1. You can clearly see that the driver had no more fuel to complete another lap, and since they had no way of knowing that they were two laps up, they took the course of action that would result in the least time lost, which was to pit.

    2. AJ, essentially THE 'force majeure' of this racing series, demands that #24 GTMX return to the bus stop prematurely, an order which was followed, but resulted in the team being unable to finish the race, when they would've been able to had AJ not mistaken them for having already crossed the finish line when they had not.

    Based on these factors, I feel that GTMX could and should appeal the decision, as they would have been able to finish the race had they not been wrongfully called back to the bus stop before passing the chequered flag. Give them a time penalty for exiting a closed pit lane if you must, but to refuse to classify them when they put so much work into completing the race and doing the most laps of anyone is an insult to them and an insult to basic human decency.
     
  24. scca_ziptie

    scca_ziptie

    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    United States
    They could have limped around the circuit off the racing line while out of fuel at the 25 mph or whatever it drops you to, without entering the pit lane and avoiding the violation of entering/exiting the closed pits. As close as the time was, and as gutting as the penalty is - it is a rule and rules must be enforced. Others have stated it, even someone on the affected team has agreed. As I said before, even though we moved up a position in the overall classification, we had first in class secured and moving up a spot this way is not how we would have wanted to accomplish it.

    Kudos for AJ making a tough decision, no doubt one he took no satisfaction in - but something that he and all the other racers know had to happen. If rules aren't enforced, they aren't rules are they.

    Commiserations again to you guys, and at the same time - applaus to your team and the organizers.

    In regards to AJ's open question about the broadcast and event:

    Broadcast was fantastic with the only real issue being the laggy/glitchy video, which is all but unavoidable unfortunately. A more responsive/current running order would be great, but I see no way to do this unless GT7 somehow allocates a "team" function in their coding to allow a new driver change to keep the total laps run by their prior teammate, adding to the runing tally.


    Race organization, structure and rules were great - I see no need for any change.

    Bravo again to all involved in all aspects of the race event.

    Hope to take part in the next GTP ES event, whether a support race on the main event.

    Cheers,

    Donald Aarseth
     
    NW48 and TeamEdge702 like this.
  25. scca_ziptie

    scca_ziptie

    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    United States
    Two names will always stand out for me in this infamous edition of the 24..

    One being Michael Schumacher, part of the fifth place team in the iconic Sauber C11 - an obvious legend and someone who has inspired countless people around the world, an most recently not in the way that anyone would like him to. Everyday I still wake up hoping to see an article saying that he has returned to the Schumi that we all know and miss,

    The other being Jeff Krosnoff, part of the Tom Walkinshaw Jaguar - an incredible racing talent who drove nearly every kind of race car imaginable and was taken from the community far too early, in a tragic accident that also took the life of a fellow SCCA corner marshal. I can vividly recall his accident as well as Senna's - both of which shook me to my core, but at the same time gave me an indescribable respect and unwavering passion for my true love: racing.

    Thanks for sparking up some nostalgia @Famine.

    Cheers!
     
  26. DaGiBUS

    DaGiBUS

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    Australia
    That's right guys, we're all either reptilians or robots. Take your pick, he doesn't care.
     
    NW48 likes this.
  27. TDZdave

    TDZdave

    Messages:
    8,166
    Location:
    Australia
    Who actually won the race outright, post penalty?
     
  28. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    65,059
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Please look up "force majeure". Driver error does not qualify - nor do the standing rules.

    In terms of online racing, a disconnect would qualify as force majeure.
     
    DaGiBUS likes this.
  29. Mattie941

    Mattie941

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    England
    I don't understand why it's still being discussed.

    It happened, decision made, move on.

    Despite missing the cut by 0.02s, I would still like to thank everyone involved in bringing this series together. By far the most professional and well organised I have raced in. Thanks guys!
     
  30. PASM

    PASM Moderator

    Messages:
    4,389
    Location:
    Netherlands
    DaGiBUS likes this.