Round 2 Cancellation Notice

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GT Motion
This has been one of the dumbest arguments ever on this board, with some of the most twisted and flawed logic I have ever seen. You guys have gone from arguing what is cheating, to who has done it, to why its morally acceptable and not acceptable to some of you, to why its not really cheating, to why you need to do it, to why you don't need to do it, what is realistic and not realistic, and "if the game lets you make a questionable jump on the racing surface, then why can't we cut?" This thread is full of so much fail its ridiculous.

When in the end, all that there is, is a video game, a competition, and whatever they allow in the competition.
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Well said...we all know the ruling body of this contest does not want us to use exploits...don't do it, don't blame anyone or anything else if YOU do it and save your time.
 
Dapper
All because a guy listened to his wife and gave erroneous rationalizations of why she was right. :lol:
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Crazy right? I thought about marrying a stupid trick who's opinions matter not to me, but instead decided to marry an intelligent woman I can converse with and even *gasp* "listen" to.

The holier-than-tho, hypocritical, selective "ethics" required to defend the popular "cheats" and incessant whining about the unpopular "cheats" is obvious.

"I can stay flat-footed over a hill so that my car flies 10 feet into the air, but that other guy who bounced his car off the wall is cheating."

"I left the track by at least ten feet, and he stayed on it. Both our cars would have been wrecked, and we both gained time by doing what we did, but he's the "cheater".

Ok, sure. You are as pure as the wind-driven snow and the other guy is damned to hell.

Got it.

Talk about rationalization.


I have already stated, over and over, that I want these holes closed in the software. But the self-rightious "He's cheating" cry-baby crap is shameful.

BTW, where are the youtube vids of the sinister "cheaters" at eiffel?

Surely the complaints must have some egregious evidence to go with them.

Of course, the replayes with 370's flying through the air at the cape are "cool" right?
 
Z1NONLY
Crazy right? I thought about marrying a stupid trick who's opinions matter not to me, but instead decided to marry an intelligent woman I can converse with and even *gasp* "listen" to.

The holier-than-tho, hypocritical, selective "ethics" required to defend the popular "cheats" and incessant whining about the unpopular "cheats" is obvious.

"I can stay flat-footed over a hill so that my car flies 10 feet into the air, but that other guy who bounced his car off the wall is cheating."

"I left the track by at least ten feet, and he stayed on it. Both our cars would have been wrecked, and we both gained time by doing what we did, but he's the "cheater".

Ok, sure. You are as pure as the wind-driven snow and the other guy is damned to hell.

Got it.

Talk about rationalization.


I have already stated, over and over, that I want these holes closed in the software. But the self-rightious "He's cheating" cry-baby crap is shameful.

BTW, where are the youtube vids of the sinister "cheaters" at eiffel?

Surely the complaints must have some egregious evidence to go with them.

Of course, the replayes with 370's flying through the air at the cape are "cool" right?
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Sounds like you need a Star-Trek "Holodeck." This way, you can replicate your world accoring to the exact laws of physics - just like in real life! And even die if you screw up!! How awesome would that be!!!!!! :drool:

I'm obviously joking around here. :) But seriously man, give it a rest and spend the extra time on something else. This thread is like a cock-roach.
 
Z1NONLY
So you quoted a point I made about how the game lets us do all sorts of things we can't do in real life, then counter by saying that 4-off is the only one we have a "choice" in.

Thereby taking the position that unreal things that we can choose not to use become unethical when we chose to use them.

You chose to reset after a crash. We choose to reset. We choose to use the E-brake on cars that don't have them. (I just learned where it was Saturday night) We choose to fly our cars ten feet in the air because the computer allows it and it makes us faster.

We have many choices when deciding which unreal things we want to use in the game.

Your assertion that 4 off is unethical because it's the only unreal advantage allowed by the game that people could choose to forgo simply isn't accurate.


The "civil agreement" I expect from other competitors is simple: Don't alter your own software, and run your own runs.

Other than that, I expect the software to decide what's legal and what isn't. And I'm far more comfortable with imperfect, but consistent, software than I am with inconsistent humans.

I hope the software doesn't allow mowing, bouncing, or teleportation in round 3.
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First, you're dead wrong and that's the whole point I and other's have been trying to find some sort of way of getting you to understand that your hyperbolic straw man argument is completely off-base.
Everything you mention above are intrinsic characteristics of the simulated environment. They are not conscious choices made by the user. The entire point of a simulator is to suspend the reality of danger, death, and damage. We approximate what it would be like to drive cars we could never afford without all the mess of cleaning blood out of your interior when something goes wrong. A simulator gives us a low-cost way to participate in something we all love and I certainly would rather be doing for real if I wasn't born poor.

So at a starting point of even turning on the game we all agree as a body to a social contract in which we suspend portions of reality. This includes car damage, fear, injury, real-world physics, etc... Now the ethical choices begin to come into play.

While you're driving around the track you cut a corner and notice the penalty system flags your time as invalid.
You hit a wall and the penalty system flags your lap as invalid, in the last sector it also flags your next lap as invalid.
So we're all aware that there IS a penalty system.
You discover the penalty system isn't perfect and allows you to cut some corners and hit some walls as long as you "do it right".
This is a clear exploit in the penalty system. You are now presented with an ethical choice. You can abide by the intentions of the penalty system, or you can exploit flaws in the penalty system to try to gain an advantage.

That choice is where your value system does not agree with mine. According to my value system the penalty system (race steward, official, referee, police officer, etc...) not "seeing" you breaking the rules it is trying to enforce still counts as a violation. And when that violation of the rules becomes intentional you've begun to engage in unethical behavior.
Killing a hooker and dumping her body in a ravine does not stop being murder if you get away with it. Just like bumping a wall or cutting the track is still a violation of the rules even if the penalty system doesn't catch you.
 
Dr_Watson
While you're driving around the track you cut a corner and notice the penalty system flags your time as invalid.
You hit a wall and the penalty system flags your lap as invalid, in the last sector it also flags your next lap as invalid.
So we're all aware that there IS a penalty system.
You discover the penalty system isn't perfect and allows you to cut some corners and hit some walls as long as you "do it right".
This is a clear exploit in the penalty system. You are now presented with an ethical choice. You can abide by the intentions of the penalty system, or you can exploit flaws in the penalty system to try to gain an advantage.
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I don't think it could be said better Dr_Watson.

I'm sure more trolling is incoming tho!
 
Dr_Watson
So we're all aware that there IS a penalty system.
You discover the penalty system isn't perfect and allows you to cut some corners and hit some walls as long as you "do it right".
This is a clear exploit in the penalty system. You are now presented with an ethical choice. You can abide by the intentions of the penalty system, or you can exploit flaws in the penalty system to try to gain an advantage.
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That's just it. There is no advantage to any exploit that is broadcast to the world and easily duplicated by everyone.

How can you not comprehend this?

Nothing is gained by the exploit over other drivers. However, failure to get around the track as fast as the game allows is a sure way to lose.

No gain from the action. Big cost of inaction.




That choice is where your value system does not agree with mine. According to my value system the penalty system (race steward, official, referee, police officer, etc...) not "seeing" you breaking the rules it is trying to enforce still counts as a violation. And when that violation of the rules becomes intentional you've begun to engage in unethical behavior.
Killing a hooker and dumping her body in a ravine does not stop being murder if you get away with it. Just like bumping a wall or cutting the track is still a violation of the rules even if the penalty system doesn't catch you.
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This is where you are wrong again. Everyone "sees" the exploits. Where do you think the vids came from?

In my OP I pointed out both of these facts and you seem to have missed them both.


Demanding human discretion, either in game play or post game play judgment, is begging for a whole new set of ethical problems.

Mainly this; Can't beat the other guy? Just "protest him." Rather than let a software system that is 100% objective and consistent, dicide what is legal and what's not, go cry to humans.

I value consistency in both rules and ethics.

The software needs fixing but the cry for human review at this stage is asking for trouble.
 
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Z1 who are you?

I can't believe you are stirring up such controversy this thing is blown way out of proportion now.

The makers of Gran Turismo put in a jump, in the game. I can guarantee you the makers of Gran Turismo did not intend on people bouncing off walls and cutting grass. So why you are trying to relate the two is beyond me. Can you give it a rest? Noone is going to give in to the "if this guy hits the wall he is no better than the guy who jumps his car on the track" way of thinking, you are really reaching there.

I think Z1 might be 01GTP in disguise, if not he must be his brother or distant cousin.
 
Good lord mod(s)...... Close this thread already, this is now nothing more than a $%^& measuring contest and personal "disputes." Let's see a different thread towards the top of the list eh?




Nothing valuable being taken from this thread any longer. Pointless griping, we all know Round 3 is coming(and with some changes) so let's just hold our toungue(s), do some driving and take some chill time.
 
GT Motion
Z1 who are you?

I can't believe you are stirring up such controversy this thing is blown way out of proportion now.

The makers of Gran Turismo put in a jump, in the game. I can guarantee you the makers of Gran Turismo did not intend on people bouncing off walls and cutting grass. So why you are trying to relate the two is beyond me. Can you give it a rest? Noone is going to give in to the "if this guy hits the wall he is no better than the guy who jumps his car on the track" way of thinking, you are really reaching there.

I think Z1 might be 01GTP in disguise, if not he must be his brother or distant cousin.
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I'M RICK JAMES!!!!

Actually, I'm nsoisson.

The only way to fairly enforce the game maker's intentions on every driver is with the software.

I proved that slow people gain no advantage with exploits when I jumped ahead of them ten minutes after watching their replays.

I saw nothing at eiffel that warranted crying about and didn't need to mow any grass to get times ahead of slow people.

I was in the 20's at madrid and probably would have needed to bounce off the wall to beat slower people who did so. But the track was killed before I even saw the bouncing.
 
Cancelled because Kaz and PD have...

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guys dont mind this person, he is one of those that will NEVER understand our values.

very similar to the morons that saw the 1st track reset, 2nd track reset and kept cheating. We saw the 3rd action, which was round 2 cancellation and THEY STILL DONT GET IT.

He didnt have any answer for what I told him last night.

ignore him
 
NWMann
I don't think it could be said better Dr_Watson.

I'm sure more trolling is incoming tho!
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It's coming and I'll bring it.

People are going to use those holes and you better smarten up and use it too if you don't want to be home reading about how everyone is in florida/uk doing what they fought for.

It doesn't matter what the game makers intended for us to do. They made a competition and everyone who's in it will use whatever was intended or not to beat their opponents. It's extremely simple, you guys just don't want to accept it because you're so afraid of what others think about you... or something.
 
xe2bls
People are going to use those holes and you better smarten up and use it too if you don't want to be home reading about how everyone is in florida/uk doing what they fought for.
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Partially I agree with you, if Sony lets you do whatever you want to make it through to real cars then do what it takes its just a video game, as long as the software lets you.

What is not good is when they don't give us direction and we question whether or not we will be disqualified for using these "holes" in the software. Then it does give an advantage to people who come out better on whichever side they gambled on.

Example: If Joe Blow sitting at 17th decided not to use the exploits while all 16 drivers in front of him did, and misses the cut by 1 then he gambled wrong and lost. However, if they disqualify the top 16 people for using the exploits then Joe Blow assumes 1st place since he was the fastest driver without using any exploit.

^ That is what is causing all the fuss.
 
GT Motion
Example: If Joe Blow sitting at 17th decided not to use the exploits while all 16 drivers in front of him did, and misses the cut by 1 then he gambled wrong and lost. However, if they disqualify the top 16 people for using the exploits then Joe Blow assumes 1st place since he was the fastest driver without using any exploit.

^ That is what is causing all the fuss.
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Exactly the reason why I do not follow.
 
So i just read all 15pgs and i all i really got outta this thread is.........actually i got nothing. How bout this guys were all into rnd.3 now and by the looks of it now its gonna be a fair competion ( fingers crossed ). So lets just say the cream will rise to the top and be done with all this bickering. I used to enjoy this sight until recently.
 
brianm3
Alright guys you are all wrong. Here is a vid of Joey Hand (Pro Driver at mid ohio) cutting the grass, jumping the car and then using a wall bounce. He then push reset and tried it until he got it right. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH ROUND 2!!

Cheers. :)
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Didn't you just post that? lol
 
Z1NONLY-

When you made your first post on this thread several pages back, I contemplated ripping your arguments about life piece by piece, however I had a feeling this would happen and responded with only "...its a game."

That still applies. Complaining and arguing with everyone on this board to try and justify your "feelings" isnt accomplishing much. Get a grip, man. Make it to Orlando, or don't.
 
xe2bls
It's coming and I'll bring it.

People are going to use those holes and you better smarten up and use it too if you don't want to be home reading about how everyone is in florida/uk doing what they fought for.

It doesn't matter what the game makers intended for us to do. They made a competition and everyone who's in it will use whatever was intended or not to beat their opponents. It's extremely simple, you guys just don't want to accept it because you're so afraid of what others think about you... or something.
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On their third attempt they realized(unfortunately) that the majority of the competitors in the United States have your mental approach to this contest, hence the three attempts to "fix" the DQ rules. I could care less what any of the other competitors think about my lap times, but at the end of the day you have to live with yourself. It would seem that Sony/PD also realize they have to "live with themselves" and are now "child proofing" the future course(s).

They are fixing the issue(s) and now it will be much more like a "traditional" on track competition. ----> Maintain a wheel on the racing surface at all times and no heavy impacts during the lap. 👍 👍 👍
 
brianm3
Alright guys you are all wrong. Here is a vid of Joey Hand (Pro Driver at mid ohio) cutting the grass, jumping the car and then using a wall bounce. He then push reset and tried it until he got it right. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH ROUND 2!!

Cheers. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wa1PPbJEXc&playnext=1&list=PLE4B47089D4C8679D
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I was watching that ALMS race live when that happened. A hellacious shunt for sure ! Glad to see him walk away from that 100% ok and he is now a "co" Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona champion partly due to the safety of that vehicle. A great driver.
 
scca_ziptie
They are fixing the issue(s) and now it will be much more like a "traditional" on track competition. ----> Maintain a wheel on the racing surface at all times and no heavy impacts during the lap.
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You mean just like GTPlanet Registry racing rules 💡
 
scca_ziptie
I was watching that ALMS race live when that happened. A hellacious shunt for sure ! Glad to see him walk away from that 100% ok and he is now a "co" Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona champion partly due to the safety of that vehicle. A great driver.
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Yes I was watching it as well. So glad he got out ok and was able to move on his career like he has. I agree one of the worst crash's I have seen and best drivers on the grid. Well respected too.
 
scca_ziptie
They are fixing the issue(s) and now it will be much more like a "traditional" on track competition. ----> Maintain a wheel on the racing surface at all times and no heavy impacts during the lap. 👍 👍 👍
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I really hope they get it right this time.
 
brianm3
Yes I was watching it as well. So glad he got out ok and was able to move on his career like he has. I agree one of the worst crash's I have seen and best drivers on the grid. Well respected too.
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Yes, totally "off topic" ...... What M3 do you own Brian? I have a 2006 E46 M3 ZCP(Competition package) with the SMG gearbox. Love it.

Sorry for the deviation off topic all. :)
 
scca_ziptie
Yes, totally "off topic" ...... What M3 do you own Brian? I have a 2006 E46 M3 ZCP(Competition package) with the SMG gearbox. Love it.

Sorry for the deviation off topic all. :)
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It's fine by me. I think others would agree this thread was going no where fast. :ouch: I had a 04 M3, 6 speed Alpine white on black. I loved it, miss it, should have never sold it. I just did a custom KW V3 set up on a new M3 and after setting that car up and driving it I'm thinking about a new one now.

SORRY back on topic.
 
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