Scrap non premiums

[CAMAROBOY69]

You know he was mocking OP right?

I would sure hope so because there is NO way to simulate driving, if you cant look through the windshield. So without an interior view or cockpit view, it is not simulating real life driving or racing. So currently the only way to simulate anything in GT5 is with the 20% premium cars. If those are removed from the game then 0% of GT5 is simulation. Standard cars do NOT simulate driving or racing at all.

 

[Dave A]

Cockpit is a gimmick?? You cant have a simulation racing game if you dont have a cockpit view, thats not even debatable. No cockpit view or way to look through the windshield is NOT a simulation racing game. Period. Unless you are simulating car surfing. If the premium cars were removed GT5 would be 0% simulation. The premiums are the only cars with the cockpit view.

It is debateable, and while you may find a cockpit view very important, simulating the drivers view from inside the car is only one aspect that can be or not be part of a driving/racing simulation. How the cars handle and respond to the players inputs is the most important aspect in my person opinion, which may be different to yours which may be different to someone else's. Which aspects a game simulates and doesn't depends on a hell of a lot of things and no simulation ever has simulated everything. Test Drive unlimited for example simulates the drivers view and interation with the car from the inside very well, but it doesn't simulate how the cars handle as realistically as GT5 does, standard or premium car regardless. In my opinion GT5's standard cars are much more of a simulation than TDU's with their interior views where you can roll the windows up and down etc.

Bear in mind that the interior vew on any racing game does not simulate the view you have when you look out the front of your car wghen realy driving due to many reasons most out of the developers control then other than having a dashboard on the screen it's no more or less realistic than the bumper view. It's better and more immersive for some, myself included, it definitely improves the experience for myself. But that doesn't prevent the game from being a sim because with or without a cockpit view the games engine can still simulate other things well such as the cars handling and weight transfer etc.

 

[Schmo]

Take out perfectly good cars, For what reason? The OP doesnt like them? Taking cars out will do nothing to enhance your gameplay.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

It is debateable, and while you may find a cockpit view very important, simulating the drivers view from inside the car is only one aspect that can be or not be part of a driving/racing simulation. How the cars handle and respond to the players inputs is the most important aspect in my person opinion, which may be different to yours which may be different to someone else's. Which aspects a game simulates and doesn't depends on a hell of a lot of things and no simulation ever has simulated everything. Test Drive unlimited for example simulates the drivers view and interation with the car from the inside very well, but it doesn't simulate how the cars handle as realistically as GT5 does, standard or premium car regardless. In my opinion GT5's standard cars are much more of a simulation than TDU's with their interior views where you can roll the windows up and down etc.

Bear in mind that the interior vew on any racing game does not simulate the view you have when you look out the front of your car wghen realy driving due to many reasons most out of the developers control then other than having a dashboard on the screen it's no more or less realistic than the bumper view. It's better and more immersive for some, myself included, it definitely improves the experience for myself. But that doesn't prevent the game from being a sim because with or without a cockpit view the games engine can still simulate other things well such as the cars handling and weight transfer etc.

Yes all those are important especially physics but without the ability to feel like you are actually sitting inside the car looking out the windshield, then its not simulation. I have been racing on real life road tracks for about 10 years and there is no way at all this feeling can be simulated without being able to look through the windshield. Hood view, bumper cam, come on thats laughable and insulting for anyone to even consider that as simulation driving.

Premiums in GT5 truly feel like simulation driving. Probably the closest I have felt to the real thing.
Standards in GT5 do not simulate reak drivng AT ALL.

Physics, any anything else in the world mean nothing if you dont start with the most important part, being able to look through the windshield as you would in real life.

 

[freedomweasel]

Yes all those are important especially physics but without the ability to feel like you are actually sitting inside the car looking out, then its not simulation. I have been racing on real life road tracks for about 10 years and there is no way at all this feeling can be simulated without being able to look through the windshield. Hood view, bumper cam, come on thats laughable and insulting for anyone to even consider that as simulation driving.

Premiums truly feel like simulation driving.
Standards do not AT ALL.

Physics, any anything else in the world mean nothing if you dont start with the most important part, being able to look through the windshield as you would in real life.

As I said before, I have a completely different view point in my actual car compared to the premium model of my car in GT5. I can see much more of the road when sitting in my car than I can in GT.

I would prefer I hood cam, or ideally a way to position your "virtual head". Having your head turn towards the apex would also go a long way as well.

You keep saying "as in real life", but frankly I don't see the same things "in real life" as I do in GT5 in the exact same vehicle.

 

[mcfizzle]

Standard cars do NOT simulate driving or racing at all.

What am I doing when I'm driving bumper cam? I was pretty sure I was driving a car? Guess I've been wrong this whole time. Damn you PD, damn you. I'm gonna start a GT5 boycott.

 

[moxlox]

No. There are many Standards I like, and to me in general they all look good. Yes, a few graphical horrors, but all in all look good to me.

 

[charliec]

Yes all those are important especially physics but without the ability to feel like you are actually sitting inside the car looking out the windshield, then its not simulation. I have been racing on real life road tracks for about 10 years and there is no way at all this feeling can be simulated without being able to look through the windshield. Hood view, bumper cam, come on thats laughable and insulting for anyone to even consider that as simulation driving.

Premiums in GT5 truly feel like simulation driving. Probably the closest I have felt to the real thing.
Standards in GT5 do not simulate reak drivng AT ALL.

Physics, any anything else in the world mean nothing if you dont start with the most important part, being able to look through the windshield as you would in real life.

Definitely agree. I've actually found myself tensing up when driving a Premium in cockpit view when I start losing grip during cornering, like I'm tensing up for impact. Kind of a weird (but welcome) sensation.

 

[Big Ron]

Standards in GT5 do not simulate reak driving AT ALL.

Really useless statement. I almost every time drive in hood view, premiums as well as standards. So you want to tell me it isn´t realistic at all? Very strange definition of what is realistic and what isn´t. realism doesn´t define out of the view, you use in the game. I played in a PC-sim-community for five years and some guyswhile using a gamepad were as fast as pros using wheels and a lot of them used hood view, too. But there wasn´t any difference in driving at all.

In my opinion, the hood cam is much more realistic than the cockpit view. Because in real life I don´t get a headache while sitting in the car and my head doesn´t shake like a mixer. I wold use the cockpit view much more when it would be smoother and adjustable.

I addition, standard cars use the same physics and sounds like the premium, so there isn´t any difference at all except the look.

 

[charliec]

And this is now what I think of when I see 3rd person cam -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIRUavithF8

 

[Tyger]

I do love how people make cockpit view out to be so much more "realistic" than any other view. Looking at a dashboard on a 2D TV screen and not being able to even move your head and change your view without head tracking and violent nausea is not especially more "realistic". I totally get how people might prefer that and find it more immersive in ways, but for me it just massively restricts visibility. It's much more about how the car behaves and feels, and the view is just a preference.

And to corroborate something a lot of people have already pointed out to the OP, the premium models do not have advanced physics, they just have a little more detail and cockpit view. Compare any premium to a very close standard counterpart (there are many of those, say the DB9) and you will see what I mean.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

What am I doing when I'm driving bumper cam? I was pretty sure I was driving a car? Guess I've been wrong this whole time. Damn you PD, damn you. I'm gonna start a GT5 boycott.

Every vehicle I have driven on and off the track in real life, I have driven looking out the windshield. If you sit on your front bumper in real life and drive then you you are simulating the way YOU drive. Everyone else in the world looks out the windshield while they drive.
Is this your simulation driving experience.

The GT5 standard car simulation experience.

They even have the Ford truck bumper cam standard car simulation pic.

 

[Mulan]

Both of you take my point to the point...that they havent made the premiums what they can be. I agree that only way to make the game feel like a simulator is cockpitview. Without it you cant get information of weighttransfer, springs, dampers, G-Force, shakings, sound and so on.
Bumperview is nothing close to it. Only reason to use bumperview is 1: There is no cockpitview
2: Cockpitview is lousy done that its better to have bumperview and arcadefeel.

I think cockpitview in GT5 isnt done good in all cars. Some cars are really good but others are lousy (C4 rallycar is lousy!).
And this is the part where GT5 is so crazy, they cant do anything 100% so thats why i want them to do at least all premiums perfect and let the standards be untill they do (and if they did make open/closing sidewindows then that would be great, especially if wind/sound changed to).
Part 2 would be to see which standardcars people like to drive and upgrade them to premiums according to the new "premium" standard and not just a graphic overhaul.

And when i mean real feel, yes its the same physics engine, they should really try the real cars compared to the ones in the game, not just go from a formula (if x is 10 then y is 5)...now GT5 is all about putting maximum HP in the car and just hit the gas...no matter what car, as soon as you upgrade the engine to stupid power/weight ratios it looses every part that they call simulator.

 

[freedomweasel]

Every vehicle I have driven on and off the track, I have driven looking out the windshield.

You've yet to respond to my (in my opinion) reasonable counter point.

Cockpit view in the game, does not match cockpit view in reality. My POV is noticeably different.

 

[Big Ron]

Both of you take my point to the point...that they havent made the premiums what they can be. I agree that only way to make the game feel like a simulator is cockpitview. Without it you cant get information of weighttransfer, springs, dampers, G-Force, shakings, sound and so on.
Bumperview is nothing close to it. Only reason to use bumperview is 1: There is no cockpitview
2: Cockpitview is lousy done that its better to have bumperview and arcadefeel.

I admit to you to make a test at the Nürburgring Nordschleife and compare hood view to cockpit view and you will never give this statement again.

You are talking about bumper cam, but forget the hood view, which gives you twice more information about the car behaviour than the cockpit view does.

 

[Tyger]

And this is now what I think of when I see 3rd person cam -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIRUavithF8

That is an awesome vid, but totally off the mark, see my previous post. They should do the same but with a totally fixed cam on the headrest of the driving seat. It would be just as weird.

Still, fun vid nonetheless

 

[charliec]

You've yet to respond to my (in my opinion) reasonable counter point.

Cockpit view in the game, does not match cockpit view in reality. My POV is noticeably different.

They do miss the correct angle of view slightly I think, wide feels too wide but zoomed in at all and you start to lose visibility of the gauges, etc...guess that's where head tracking would be nice.

I would love to try a multidisplay setup with headtracking

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

You've yet to respond to my (in my opinion) reasonable counter point.

Cockpit view in the game, does not match cockpit view in reality. My POV is noticeably different.

I agree with you. Thats another complaint I already mentioned in other threads that could have been perfected with the ability to adjust the seat position. If they could have let us adjust our seat position (like in TDU1) then each person could truly sit exactly where they wanted in every single vehicle. TDU1 allowed the seat positon to be changed in every vehicle. Up down, forward and back. While that game was clearly not a simulation racer, it did a great job with the seat adjustment. Because lets face it, we dont all have the same TVS. Some are widescreen, some are not, some are HD. So at least with the ability to adjust our seat, we could get the view perfect. Tats how PD could fix the problem you were discussing.

 

[freedomweasel]

They do miss the correct angle of view slightly I think, wide feels too wide but zoomed in at all and you start to lose visibility of the gauges, etc...guess that's where head tracking would be nice.

I would love to try a multidisplay setup with headtracking

While that would no doubt be amazing it's unfortunately also prohibitively expensive for most gamers.

I'm merely pointing out that to say "unless there is a cockpit view you're not sim'ing" is a silly remark.

I could just as easily claim "unless you wear your full nomex suit, HANS device and helmet you aren't sim'ing" and it would be just as true.

I agree with you. Thats another complaint I already mentioned in other threads that could have been perfected with the ability to adjust the seat position. If they could have let us adjust our seat position (like in TDU1) then each person could truly sit exactly where they wanted in every single vehicle. TDU1 allowed the seat positon to be changed in every vehicle. Up down, forward and back. While that game was clearly not a simulation racer, it did a great job with the seat adjustment. Because lets face it, we dont all have the same TVS. Some are widescreen, some are not, some are HD. So at least with the ability to adjust our seat, we could get the view perfect. Tats how PD could fix the problem you were discussing.

That would be an amazing feature. If I could move my "head" position in each car I'd use the cockpit a lot more. As it stands though, many of the cockpits have you positioned very awkwardly and I just don't want to deal with it.
NFS Shift 2 seems to be advertising that the camera aims towards the corner while your turn rather than remaining straight out over the hood. It'd be nice if GT had something like that as well.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

As I said before, I have a completely different view point in my actual car compared to the premium model of my car in GT5. I can see much more of the road when sitting in my car than I can in GT.

I would prefer I hood cam, or ideally a way to position your "virtual head". Having your head turn towards the apex would also go a long way as well.

You keep saying "as in real life", but frankly I don't see the same things "in real life" as I do in GT5 in the exact same vehicle.

Yes, but whats closer to reality: Using the cockpit view or bumper view?

 

[freedomweasel]

Yes, but whats closer to reality: Using the cockpit view or bumper view?

As this discussion shows, I'd say its debatable.
While it's certainly more real to have blindspots from A-pillars and being able to read the speedo, etc, the dash/cockpit has a significantly different view compared to my real life driving position. I feel like I'm leaned way back like a "gangsta" cruising the street in some of GTs cockpits.

Alternatively bumper cam puts you (obviously) on the bumper which is clearly not realistic.

I feel a hood view, or a much better implementation of cockpit view would be ideal. Until then I'd say that overall, on average bumper is more realistic.

edit: If I had a TV as large as my windshield I'd probably go with cockpit but as it stands I've got a 30 something inch widescreen and it simply feels like the dash takes up too high a % of my POV even adjusting the zoom.

 

[DRIFT GOD]

Every vehicle I have driven on and off the track in real life, I have driven looking out the windshield. If you sit on your front bumper in real life and drive then you you are simulating the way YOU drive. Everyone else in the world looks out the windshield while they drive.
Is this your simulation driving experience.

The GT5 standard car simulation experience.

They even have the Ford truck bumper cam standard car simulation pic.

lmfao thats the funniest thing i have seen in awhile 👍

 

[Instrumental]

I love the standard cars in this game, they're fun to drive, the info on them is interesting to read and they still look good for the most part. It would be terrible to remove them.

 

[Big Ron]

Yes, but whats closer to reality: Using the cockpit view or bumper view?

The most realistic view is which gives you most information about your car and it´s behaviour...and therefore it doesn´t matter if I can see a dashboard or not.

In GT5, the cockpit view is defenitively NOT the most realistic view, because it can´t submit as much information as you need while driving.

 

[gambleboyen]

I don't drive in cockpit mode anyway, so standards are fine for me when it comes to racing.

 

[charliec]

edit: If I had a TV as large as my windshield I'd probably go with cockpit but as it stands I've got a 30 something inch widescreen and it simply feels like the dash takes up too high a % of my POV even adjusting the zoom.

A 42" isn't much better, I still find myself zooming or switching to the bumper/hood cam depending on the course and weather/lighting.

 

[freedomweasel]

A 42" isn't much better, I still find myself zooming or switching to the bumper/hood cam depending on the course and weather/lighting.

Bummer. Guess I'll save any potential TV upgrade money and spend it on tires. 👍

 

[Mulan]

i think if they fixed the FOV and the sound inside the car then nobody would go for anything but cockpit view. They should implement a bit shaking and a slight headturning (as in Shift2) for making it feel like you are driving fast and making you see more where you are driving. I dont think they can apply this to all 1000 cars but on the premiums they could go the extra mile for us reality likers. And im not all about simulating the car but simulating the experience of racing and for that they need more details in how they present the incar feeling.

 

[charliec]

Bummer. Guess I'll save any potential TV upgrade money and spend it on tires. 👍

👍 way more fun to wear those out. Prices are coming down though, I was looking at an LG 47" 120Hz 1080p LCD at Newegg for $699. Probably couldn't justify it to the wife though based on GT5

 

[charliec]

i think if they fixed the FOV and the sound inside the car then nobody would go for anything but cockpit view. They should implement a bit shaking and a slight headturning (as in Shift2) for making it feel like you are driving fast and making you see more where you are driving. I dont think they can apply this to all 1000 cars but on the premiums they could go the extra mile for us reality likers. And im not all about simulating the car but simulating the experience of racing and for that they need more details in how they present the incar feeling.

I think they do a decent job with the shaking in cockpit and tranmission whine. Some cars are deafeningly loud and almost violent to be in. Stiff suspensions can make camera shake almost too much for a game. If they made it too realistic, no one would want to use the cockpit view.

Just as an example of noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgy9vc4rf90