Seriously guys...

[Vagabond]

Group hug everyone.

 

[x3n0n1x]

That, right there, that's IT. We've all been recklessly misusing the forums for all these years but its taken your wonderful post to draw our attention to it....

That.. that's beautiful man.

I think I love you now, in.. ya know.. a really deeply respectful way.

If you disagree with me then just say so, the sarcasm is not needed.

 

[CeeJay]

I'm overly critical of GT5 because I am a fanboy. My disappointment came when I realized GT5 was average. It was just OK. Putting last gen car models next to the stunning premium models was like putting a fat slob next to Michelangelo's David. So many things about the game were both so good and so bad. GT5 is a paradox. I love it and I hate it.

Not everyone who posts critical things on GT5 is a hater or trying to spoil other people's fun. I hope I've not made people mad with what I've posted but I do believe a lot of people who post negative things are huge fans of the series and want GT to stay on top & be everything it can be as one of the best driving games on the market.

 

[Vagabond]

If you disagree with me then just say so, the sarcasm is not needed.

I happen to not be disagreeing with you per se, more poking fun at the futility of your post.

"The problem with these forums is..." in 50,000 words or less... It'd make a good essay title but here its all moot.

The problem with forums is they are populated by people. People with ideas as varied and individual as their fingerprints. Occasionally there are agreements and more often, disagreements.. with a multitude of possible outcomes.

My apologies if you took offence, the sarcasm is supposed to be light hearted banter but your post there made me laugh. May as well say "The problem with people is..."

We're not here to philosophise (there are other forums for that) we're here to air our views and debate things Gran Turismo.

Now come on everyone, group hug or no sweets.

 

[x3n0n1x]

I happen to not be disagreeing with you per se, more poking fun at the futility of your post.

"The problem with these forums is..." in 50,000 words or less... It'd make a good essay title but here its all moot.

The problem with forums is they are populated by people. People with ideas as varied and individual as their fingerprints. Occasionally there are agreements and more often, disagreements.. with a multitude of possible outcomes.

My apologies if you took offence, the sarcasm is supposed to be light hearted banter but your post there made me laugh. May as well say "The problem with people is..."

We're not here to philosophise (there are other forums for that) we're here to air our views and debate things Gran Turismo.

Now come on everyone, group hug or no sweets.

My point may be moot, and I agree that it is, but the reason I chose to put it forward is that it is clear that the general population on these forums (and most others) seem to really need the information, even though 99.99% of them i'm sure are perfectly aware of the philosophy. What is truly moot is saying nothing at all, which is in exactly the same vein as not criticizing the game. How can anything get better if nobody says anything?

Funny thing is my previous point is just as futile as all the criticism on these boards, PD will not see them. I would LOVE to be proven wrong on that last comment, but I have yet to see any evidence to contradict it.

 

[RWB1213]

Real progress would be limiting criticism to the game, and universally respecting each members right to an opinion.

That said, and as an example of how threads repeatedly tend to degenerate . . .

There was a thread re: the quality of GT5 AI. Originally it started with a pretty tepid/objective tone. Members were stating their opinion and posting video of examples of good/poor AI driving. The thread quickly turned into a court case, and then to a Hatfields/McCoys feud, involving pitchforks and dynamite. I was quite interested in the dialogue and discussion early on, but in a short matter of time found myself both insulted and at some level provoked into exchanging barbs . . . In the end, I believe the thread was locked and by extension, further qualitative discussion about the AI, good or bad. Personally, I think the AI in GT5 needs close examination, and whom better than fans of the game to test? (It seems a bit much these days to count on software publishers to play test, a discussion for another thread.) When threads degenerate to inflamatory tone, we likely only hurt the game we love (or at least want to love more.)

 

[tribolik]

Whats really the topic/meaning of this thread - I cant seem to understand it - and what I cant really understand is why its got so many replys already.
Is it supose to help us enjoy the game better or to educate the bad maners some complainers have - because I cant see it do either.
For me to get back to the game and enjoy it - only PD can help there now - Yes Im not playing it anymore I already did the 500 events of GT4 twice and the 200 of GT5 some of them 10 or 20 times so nothing left for me to do except wait to make use of the 500/600 euros that I spent just to play the game.
If you still cant get it - why some people are so mad about the game let me explain with some maths.

PS2 Wheel GT3 GT4 - 250 euros - 300 + 500 events - 6 years playing
PS3 Wheel GT5 - 550 euros - 200 events - 2 months playing

all of it more or less of course

Get it now?

 

[FendRhodes]

The thing I hate the most is when people say "if you dont like the game then just stop playing it, yeah yeah how you like me now player? I'm out this peace! gangsta"
It's like you're not allowed to say anything about GT5 that isn't directly praising the game, seriously how is the game or future games ever gonna improve if we all just become yes men?

STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE GIVING HONEST FEEDBACK GOSH DAMAGE!




Tell 'em Govenator

 

[BWX]

............
...........
..........
PS2 Wheel GT3 GT4 - 250 euros - 300 + 500 events - 6 years playing
PS3 Wheel GT5 - 550 euros - 200 events - 2 months playing
...........
..........

Even without the $$ involved for the wheels.. That's the main problem. I can overlook/accept just about all of GT5's flaws and missing/cut features except the lack of racing/ a-spec events.

When OP says:

For such a niche gaming community to get a game like this on a console, everyone has something critical to say. I do not get why everyone seems so slighted by PD

THAT'S why.. lack of content in the form or races to complete in a-spec- and the fact that the discrepancy is so huge. Again, look at my sig. Of course GT fans "feel slighted" as OP puts it.

PD did all the hard work, great car models, great physics, adequate tracks, not great but better Ai. Then on the much easier part, creating a racing "career" with plenty of events and championships to compete in, PD gives us 1/5 of what was in GT4?!

That's why a lot of people are pissed off or just plain frustrated with GT5. Instead of actual content, we get a convoluted XP system that seems slapped together last minute to try to make GT5 artificially longer to finish. That is BS and PD and Kaz could easily fix it, but instead they have their collective head in the sand on the subject.

There are a lot of other things that need fixing and tweaking, there are things completely missing that were in GT4 and GT5p. Still with all that people wonder why GT5 fans are vocal about these issues? Really?
No, really?

 

[kdryan]

For such a niche gaming community to get a game like this on a console, everyone has something critical to say. I do not get why everyone seems so slighted by PD. You got console industry standard in car physics, It has 200 cars, with full interiors, plus like every other car from the series to date. Plenty of tracks from both reality and fiction. Fun special events and online racing/events. Fairly regular updates, and the guy who made it actually reads and responds to all you arm chair game critics.

I would much rather play this game then the one it think quite a few of the members on this site would make. Which if I'm correct I'm my assessment would be a game that only people with racing seats with expensive fake car steering wheels, an FIA license and a 5 point harness would be able to play, oh yeah it wouldn't have any driving assists, all the events would require you race with only one kind of car that put you at a disadvantage. so on and so forth.

I have been playing since GT1 and I'm very happy with PD and the game.

As Louie C.K. said "Its going to space, can you give it a freaking second?"

Translation: 'I am a fanboy. I have almost a decade invested in playing this game and I refuse to see anything bad.'

 

[skylinefx]

The game could've been better.
Would it take much longer to release? No.
It looks like PD didn't have any goals and wanted to keep developing the game, got pressure from Sony to release it quickly and it got released unfinished.

The cars are brilliant (and I never complained about the standards). The physics are brilliant too. But what else is there? In every other part of the game something is missing to make it the best driving game. Small things like the ability to choose the weather and time in arcade really annoy me.

 

[Luminis]

The game could've been better.
Would it take much longer to release? No.

Exactly. Lots of small flaws that should've been fixed before the game released.
It's not that there is that one, huge game breaking flaw that hails from some severe coding issue or anything. It's the small, strange design decisions that taint the experience, in my opinion.

Lots and lots of little inconveniences that add up. That's why it's so annoying... I can't think of a reason for those flaws and strange decisions to be in there, aside from PD focusing so much on the looks of the premium cars that they basically forgot about making the game fun.

Seeing that it could've been so much better if someone just had a look at the game and made some minor changes here and there, now that is what's so mind boggling.

I can't understand why nobody stood up when they were finalising the game and said "Hey guys, that paint system is kind of a chore, isn't it? Let's make it more fun, okay? Why remove the paint chips after using them?"

 

[Destinkeys]

You know, we could organize this forum SO much better... All we need is three threads.

The 'complaining about the game' thread
The 'complaining about the complaining' thread
And one thread for 'everything else'!

The bottom line, I guess is, if you love the game THAT MUCH, why are you even here? You are missing out on some valuable seat time, my friends! PD are grown-ups. They can take criticism even when it isn't disguised in touchy-feely new age positivism. As opposed to the OP...

Get your 🤬 in gear IS 'constructive criticism' when used on those whose 🤬 has been dragging. Nearly three months out now, and this game has YET to get a substantive update that addresses the main criticisms. What are they, a bunch of spoilt brats who won't work unless we cajole them with gentle words of encouragement?

Group hug.... Kumbay-ya, my Lord, kumbay-ya...

OK, now BACK TO WORK, YOU SLACKERS! 💡

 

[Rylan]

Useless Criticism = Moaning that the game is horribly broken, unplayable, completely boring, suggesting that the online feature does not work or complaining that time has been spent on an online mode at all, intoning that standard cars, poor damage modelling, 2D trees and jaggy shadows ruin the game, that the game is only worth of reviews in the 50% range and that making games is easy and PD have been sat on their arse for 6 years etc.

Constructive Criticism = highlighting specific issues and prioritising them in order of severity and their impact on the game. Concentrating on areas where improvement can be made because, like it or not, the chances of having full features revamped at this stage is next to none, and suggesting and debating ways in which to make the game better within a reasonable timeframe.

I try to live by a general rule. Never take a problem to my boss until I've worked out at least one valid solution to fixing it. It's not always possible but nobody likes the person that constantly comes to them with exxagerated problems or criticism of others work and no possible idea on how to make the situation better. Worse still, they're generally ignored, even when they do have a point.

 

[Rylan]

You know, we could organize this forum SO much better... All we need is three threads.

The 'complaining about the game' thread
The 'complaining about the complaining' thread
And one thread for 'everything else'!

If there was a "complaining about the game" thread ( and people stuck to it ) there wouldn't be a need for the "complaining about the complaining" thread.

We're just unhappy at the sheer number of threads dedicated to it and the fact it swamps the other stuff.

 

[Destinkeys]

Useless Criticism = Moaning that the game is horribly broken, unplayable, completely boring, suggesting that the online feature does not work or complaining that time has been spent on an online mode at all, intoning that standard cars, poor damage modelling, 2D trees and jaggy shadows ruin the game, that the game is only worth of reviews in the 50% range and that making games is easy and PD have been sat on their arse for 6 years etc.

Constructive Criticism = highlighting specific issues and prioritising them in order of severity and their impact on the game. Concentrating on areas where improvement can be made because, like it or not, the chances of having full features revamped at this stage is next to none, and suggesting and debating ways in which to make the game better within a reasonable timeframe.

But when the end result of BOTH types of criticism is a resounding silence from PD and a complete lack of patches to those criticisms, what do you expect? People of ALL ways and means come here, and some who have honest criticism may either not be ABLE to figure out how to fix it (but they aren't game designers, so who is to tell them that that is THEIR job to figure out?), or want to be bothered when others have already done the job so well, it hardly bears repeating?

On your JOB, yes, it might help to go to the boss with a solution to go with a complaint. But at say a restaurant, do you feel, before you feel entitled to complain about crappy food, that you need to know exactly what to tell the chef to do to make it better? If your Toyota accelerates madly with no input, should you remain silent until YOU have diagnosed the problem and come up with a solution? Give me a break!

Sorry, but analogy fails in this situation. PD don't employ us (though it might be a better game if they HAD employed some of us!). We have bought a product made by PD. And we have every right to express dissatisfaction even when unaccompanied by a solution for it.

 

[Destinkeys]

If there was a "complaining about the game" thread ( and people stuck to it ) there wouldn't be a need for the "complaining about the complaining" thread.

We're just unhappy at the sheer number of threads dedicated to it and the fact it swamps the other stuff.

And starting yet ANOTHER thread on basically the same issue is helping the problem?

Logic fail

 

[Luminis]

We're just unhappy at the sheer number of threads dedicated to it and the fact it swamps the other stuff.

Kinda gives an indication of how the balance between average expectation of the product and the average satisfaction with the finished product is, doesn't it?

Dunno, but if every second person has something to complain about and only a minority is completely satisfied with your product, what does that hint at?
A) You product has issues.
B) Everybody else has issues.

I'd say option A) is the correct answer. Option B) sounds more like an excuse.

Useless Criticism = Moaning that the game is horribly broken, unplayable, completely boring, suggesting that the online feature does not work or complaining that time has been spent on an online mode at all, intoning that standard cars, poor damage modelling, 2D trees and jaggy shadows ruin the game, that the game is only worth of reviews in the 50% range and that making games is easy and PD have been sat on their arse for 6 years etc.

Dunno whether I could agree with your view of 'useless criticism'.
"The new seasonal events are rubbish. They're making the same mistake they made with A-Spec in general! Dull and grindy with little reward!"
Doesn't sound nice, seems to fit your definition of 'useless criticism' but hits the mark perfectly well.

By the way, prioritising the criticism and adressing those points in a meaningful order should be done by the recipient.
For one reason: They can asses which points take the most time to fix and which issues can be ironed out fast. Hence, ironing out the easier ones (but a lot of them in less time) means adressing a lot of issues fast, which equals a better (and faster) improvement of the overall product.

Let me put it this way: If a bank was to react to the complaints of its customers in the same fashion as PD (you know, one step forward, two steps back) does, it would be bankrupt in a week. And it'll probably have half a dozen law suits on its hands as well.

Lastly, there are enough guys around here who seem to label whatever they feel like as 'useless criticism', in a means to defend the game, no matter whether the criticism is justified or pointed out in a polite manner.

 

[ESR_balla]

People are critical of this game because of its pedigree and resources. Thats just how life is, when you establish yourself as elite, that territory have much higher expectations/standards. People who are tired of the complainers and just expect them to say nothing are humorous. People here arent complaining that the grass count is too low, the shift knob is angled wrong or other nitpicks, they are griping on serious gameplay and fundamental flaws. Mediocre career race selection, 70+% of cars that look like PS2 copy and paste jobs, removing of famous and basic tracks for no reason, XP system that seems to force you to race the same race 100+ to level up, etc. I still cant believe they released the game and still havent fix how the cars look like they came out of a gameboy when surrounded by tire smoke. Its pretty pathetic.

There are alot of good things in this game, but there is also alot of bad things. Bad things that I would be critical if it came from a second rate game developer, let alone PD.

 

[Rylan]

But when the end result of BOTH types of criticism is a resounding silence from PD and a complete lack of patches to those criticisms, what do you expect?

When you're posting on a forum which does not belong to, nor has any affiliation with, the developers, what do you expect?

But at say a restaurant, do you feel, before you feel entitled to complain about crappy food, that you need to know exactly what to tell the chef to do to make it better?

If you tell your waiter that the food is cold, too salty, too spicy, too whatever and then ask for them to resolve the matter then they'll apologise, take the meal back and replace it. If you stand their, shouting for all to hear, that the chef is incompetent, your food is inedible, they took 3 hours to deliver it, ....you're getting walked off the premises.

Worse still is the positive threads which get jacked being more akin to walking up to a family who just said "Yes thank you waiter. The meal was lovely" and yelling "How can you say that? Look, your brocolli is limp, that sauce is congealed, you have no taste in food at all do you?"

And starting yet ANOTHER thread on basically the same issue is helping the problem?

Logic fail

This smacks of hypocrisy. People are allowed to complain but if anyone wants to be positive, or reign in those that are counter productive, we're what....spamming the forum?

Doesn't sound nice, seems to fit your definition of 'useless criticism' but hits the mark perfectly well.

Ah yes but that's the rub isn't it. The same people compaining about lack of A-Spec events are the same ones now complaining about the new seasonals. The fact is, some of those that aren't happy, never will be.

If you genuinely feel that the new seasonals are dull and grindy, say so. I honestly don't have any issues with that but explain what you would do personally to make them better, what tracks, what restrictions or cars and what payouts. Otherwise you get what you have here today, PD responding to complaints about seasonals and complaints about lack of A-Spec races and trying to resolve the issue, only to find it's not the way people wanted.

Lastly, there are enough guys around here who seem to label whatever they feel like as 'useless criticism', in a means to defend the game, no matter whether the criticism is justified or pointed out in a polite manner.

I get what you're saying and I totally agree with you. I won't defend fanboyism but equally I can't justify some of the complaints we're seeing lately and I cannot abide by those people who hijack positive threads with their own hatred.

I'm just asking for a bit of balance and I think the OP feels similar.

 

[phil bell]

this thread should be locked,its been discussed and basically the conclusion is 'yes we expected way more,with less glitching,but its ok and still the ultimate sim'.

 

[Luminis]

If you genuinely feel that the new seasonals are dull and grindy, say so. I honestly don't have any issues with that but explain what you would do personally to make them better, what tracks, what restrictions or cars and what payouts. Otherwise you get what you have here today, PD responding to complaints about seasonals and complaints about lack of A-Spec races and trying to resolve the issue, only to find it's not the way people wanted.

I haven't tried the new seasonals, so I can't really comment on that, i just used it as an example, as I picked it up.

It's just this: People complained about A-Spec not being demanding and there being too little of it.
People complained about the lack of money.
People complained about seasonal events giving too much of a headstart early on.
People complained about not being able to re-run the events.

Now, if PD just took all of that nto consideration, we wouldn't have ended up with the current seasonals.
There aren't even that many possible solutions that meet all those criteria.
1) Keep with the old seasonals, their design and payout, along with the limitations in terms of tuning the car, just a little bit easier than before.
2) Scale the amount of money and XP the events award by the player's level.
3) Make them rerunable, giving out a huge chunk of XP and credits when you first do them (like before) and add less credits and XP when you redo them.

Thing is, they hust took one part of the feedback into consideration and ended up with something that adresses one point, not all of them (or a majority, at least). Basically, they ignored a few parts of the information they were given, in my opinion. Therefore, providing them with more detailed feedback won't make much of a difference, if it's only partially being considered. That's how it currently appears to be. To me, at least.

I get what you're saying and I totally agree with you. I won't defend fanboyism but equally I can't justify some of the complaints we're seeing lately and I cannot abide by those people who hijack positive threads with their own hatred.

I'm just asking for a bit of balance and I think the OP feels similar.

I just don't think that a balance of the content of the threads around here is a reasonable request when there is no balance between satisfaction and disappointment.
More disappointed players than satisfied player will result in more negative posts than positive ones, and I think it's both to be expected and perfectly reasonable.

Now, quelling those negative posts to 'improve' the general opinion around here seems like the wrong way to go. Rather, getting rid of the roots of said disappointment would be the way to go.
Or let me put it this way: Not speaking about it doesn't make the issue go away.
Speaking about it doesn't do that necessarily, either, though. But there is a chance that it'll have at least some influence and, at times, venting is quite useful and needed

 

[Rylan]

No, you're right. Ignoring the issue won't make it go away which is why I'll defend some complaining, to a degree, but if complaints are not handled in a sensetive manner it is human nature to become defensive. At that point you risk not being heard at all and it's the quickest way to kill a community.

I think I'm out of this one. I wish you all the best but just bear it in mind please for the future. That's all I ask.

 

[Vagabond]

I haven't tried the new seasonals, so I can't really comment on that...

I will briefly comment that the new seasonals continue to show PDs obsession with pushing the Cape Ring Super Mario track at us...

Having said that, they are a step forward and at least give us a reason to use the Ferrari F1 cars.

 

[Rylan]

I know I said I was out of this but just have a look at the Seasonal Events forum at the moment.

There's a huge post to talk about Season 7 events. It's not a discussion about what races people are looking forward to like the other ones or how they do it. It's a debate on whether the change is good or not.

Now look how many additional threads have been started with the sole purpose of complaint.

And yes, in that forum we have another complaining about complaining post as a result.

Somehow the cycle must be broken.

 

[Luminis]

Somehow the cycle must be broken.

Those cycles can only be overcome by PD, by improving the game. Really, it is that simple.
I guess that there will be always someone to complain about something, but if the game is good enough, those people become a minority.

 

[jenoma]

If you genuinely feel that the new seasonals are dull and grindy, say so. I honestly don't have any issues with that but explain what you would do personally to make them better, what tracks, what restrictions or cars and what payouts. Otherwise you get what you have here today, PD responding to complaints about seasonals and complaints about lack of A-Spec races and trying to resolve the issue, only to find it's not the way people wanted.

May I tell you what I think?

Seasonals should be treated like end game options for higher level players, we are talking of a racing game with levels and experience, so we should start considering how successful MMO developers have solved some of the grinding issues.

Let's say, limit seasonals to be available from level 25/28, develop them like championship and with higher rewards to fill the gap between the extreme series and the endurances. They should start to develop them like an extension of a-spec end game contents, which at the moment consist in endurances without save options and that means, in my opinion, they're played by a minority.

Plus revamp the whole xp and reward table with something more logical: higher races higher reward and proportioned to the time needed to finish them, that means no more 2 hours races with 100k rewards and 5 minutes races with the same amount of credits awarded.

No rocket science involved, just some common sense, especially on what model to use for GT5: the oriental grinding MMO system or the western one, which has been capable to get the lead since WOW came out.

The new seasonals are filling a gap that isn't there, they are low level races for low level players, not for level 30 players with only one race to grind effectively some credits and XP. Do you think I'll grind 12 million on Daitona, when I have some free time to play, just to get a F2010 to do a group of races that pays 100k? Or you believe I should grind the new seasonals for 2 weeks and get those credits with 27k races?

Now I don't say I will not do them, but just for a bit of fun and I'll probably try to trade a couple of car I have for the Ferraris, but this should not be the only solution to overcome the massive amount of mindless grinding present in GT5.

The more I think of it, the more I believe PD have seriously some bad game designers with them and that they should hire some western dev to bring them out from the past gaming generation as soon as possible.

 

[bobmarde]

It seems like PD just can't win... First they make races with restrictions. Then people complain. Then they make races without restrictions, then people complain again. Then they make races with no restrictions but with suggestive hp recommendations, and people still find a way to complain.

 

[skylinefx]

It seems like PD just can't win... First they make races with restrictions. Then people complain. Then they make races without restrictions, then people complain again. Then they make races with no restrictions but with suggestive hp recommendations, and people still find a way to complain.

Balance the two?
First few races in A-Spec should be without any restrictions, then as the player progresses introduce more restrictions... How hard is that?

 

[Luminis]

It seems like PD just can't win... First they make races with restrictions. Then people complain.

About the restrictions being too tight, not about them being there in the first place.

Then they make races without restrictions, then people complain again.

Because they enabled you to bring a gun to a knife fight, when people asked for just a bigger knife.

Then they make races with no restrictions but with suggestive hp recommendations, and people still find a way to complain.

About the payout, which is, like, totally unrelated to the first few complaints.