Should PD focus more on quality and consistency next time?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Strittan, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. Strittan

    Strittan Premium

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    ... does anyone else feel that PD should really, REALLY concentrate on quality and consistency this time. I for one don't want to see another rushed game.
    • Racing modification for most of the cars (Like in GT1 and GT2)
    • Improved AI and sounds
    • Improved online mode
    • An easy-to-use livery editor
    Leave standard cars, Vision GT, moon missions, Red Bull and racing driver collaborations out of it, and we're good.
     
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  2. JKgo

    JKgo

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    .......No, not the Red Bull stuff,don't leave those out - where am I gonna grind credits if they are gone???
    Seriously though, I want to see the fluff remain all the while core stuff improves. Remember, GT is played not just by hardcore folks but casuals too. Gotta accomodate 'em as well, ya know...
     
  3. Harsk100

    Harsk100

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    And please don't leave these features which are in GT6 already, PD.
     
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  4. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    And we're in la-la land again, where all cars can have racing mods for free!

    AI makes itself, and sounds come in a box from magical outsourced peoples, ready to use in any audio engine imaginable.

    Livery editors are simply a choice, and don't depend on previous choices or technical / aesthetic considerations.


    Back to the real world: this really has nothing to do with "hard core" or "casual", only preference and taste. I can tell that by the lack of concrete descriptions.

    Maybe wait and see what the final evolution of GT6 will be before presupposing PD's intentions overall.
     
  5. syntex123

    syntex123 Premium

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    Standard cars are welcome to stay, as long as most of them becomes premium and the rest becomes "semi premium" this time around..
     
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  6. Strittan

    Strittan Premium

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    You really know it's a bad game when this is on the official site:
    The last part is a lie by the way.
     
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  7. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Hi there: welcome to marketing, or "how to convince people to give us their money".

    Besides, since the last part doesn't actually stipulate in what way GT6 is supposed to be technologically avant garde, I wonder how you have determined that it is a lie.
     
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  8. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    Actually they did:

    Essentially, with those listed features and more...GT6..blah blah blah.
     
  9. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    No, they technically didn't.

    "Powered-up" means what?

    And what is "the product of collaboration with the world's automotive manufacturers" actually referring to?

    Even the "brand-new community functions" don't really describe any technological outriding.

    You'd basically be guessing. Step in imagination, hello marketing.
     
  10. Strittan

    Strittan Premium

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    And as everybody knows, marketing lies. The '1200 types of cars' part is very confusing as well, because ten R34 Skyline GT-R's (and RX7's, Miatas, NSX's, Evos, Imprezas, etc etc) are arguably the same type of car, and no mention of 800 of them being ported from a PS2 game. Marketing indeed.
     
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  11. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Quite!
     
  12. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Staff Emeritus

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    It's been covered a few times before that, barring PD suddenly finding a much, much faster/efficient approach, not all existing Standards could even become "Semi-Premiums" before a hypothetical Christmas 2016 release, to say nothing of converting a fair number to Premium proper, as well as adding new-to-series cars. Which, one would have to hope, would be to Premium quality.

    Marketing doesn't lie; it presents existing facts in the best possible light. Whether you or I are satisfied with the actual diversity on offer in GT6, there are 1200 cars in the game. It's sort of like how Guinness can present itself as a healthy drink choice: people tend to think of beer (and especially dark beer) as a calorie-heavy option, yet a pint of that contains less calories than the equivalent amount of milk or orange juice.

    Is it misleading to claim 1200 cars? Possibly. But it's not a lie.
     
  13. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    How was that conclusion arrived at? We have no idea how long they take.

    It is obvious that they eat into the time available for making full Premiums (by some unknown amount), but it's not known how much total effort they spent on Semi-Premiums for GT6, and whether that effort would remain in the same proportion for GT7.

    Moreover, PD are still increasing the size of the modeling team, and there has been a troubling, ever-increasing gap between the 6-month production-rate figure Kaz reiterated recently, and that which they actually achieve in released assets.
     
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  14. SlipZtrEm

    SlipZtrEm Staff Emeritus

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    There's ~60 or so "Semi-Premiums" in GT6, no? I don't have the number on hand, but it's considerably less than 100, at any rate. There were that many after the three years between GT's 5 and 6, taking into account the handful of Premium replacements for existing Standards, and the ~100 new Premiums as well. That leaves ~700 Standards needing attention. While it's entirely possible (even likely, really) that PD didn't start working on this "Semi-Premium" route until well into GT6's development, there's still over 7 times the amount of Standards left to update to this halfway-house status.

    Depending on how much they expand the size of their modeling team, and how much they've been holding back with regards to that production-rate figure versus received content (presumed for GT7), I don't see what's so unbelievable about that conclusion. Even taking into account how a vast amount of the Standards could be done in batches - the time to get a Premium-like exterior shell for the remaining dozen or so R34's would take a fraction of the time compared to 12 unique models - we're still looking at something like 500 or so unique models.
     
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  15. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    Seven times one modeler is seven modelers, and seven times 60 modelers is 420 modelers.

    We have no idea which of these scenarios is representative.
    We should not exclude looking at fractional numbers of modelers, either (less than one modeler full time for the full duration between GT5 and GT6).

    Nor do we know PD's model / grade* strategy, culling opportunities etc. for GT7. And then there's that much touted "quality over quantity" thing. What better PD-way of achieving that than not adding any new cars at all, and focusing on the Standards? :p
    Might sound silly, but it's a continuous scale between that and only adding new Premium cars.

    * This word appears in addition to "name" in some instances in GT6's data, but the values are identical to each other for all cars.
     
  16. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    It's PD's statement not mine. They are clearly saying, "these are the things that put us at the forefront of racing game technology". The fact that they didn't flesh them out or make them clear doesn't change the fact that they are saying they are at the forefront of racing game technology with those game attributes.
     
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  17. Strittan

    Strittan Premium

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    I don't know what I wanted to say by bringing this up. I guess I just think it's funny, and kinda sad at the same time, that they use these things for marketing, because it's all they got. They're not even ahead graphics wise anymore, which they they were back in the PS2 years.

    Let's just hope Kaz stops thinking about car count and makes the game great before anything else. I mean, I'd rather have 50 cars that looks and sounds awesome, with racing modification available on all of 'em and a livery editor, than over 1000 cars that are there just for the sake of having as many cars as possible. That's just me though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  18. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    So how are we to determine whether or not they constitute a collective lie? Or are you arguing a different point?
     
  19. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    I must be. You said they didn't stipulate in what way GT6 is supposed to be technologically avant garde and it appears to me they gave a list of general attributes without any specifics at to they why's and wheretofore's. Or maybe I'm missing something.
     
  20. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The lack of specifics constitutes a failure to stipulate. It seems to me it would be in the very definition of the phrase.
     
  21. Griffith500

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    @SlipZtrEm Please excuse the double post, but I went over my old figures for the car modeling efforts of the PS3 games.

    They can be found here.

    In summary:

    GT5 had 163 new Premiums from 38 modelers after 3 years
    GT6 had 200 (ish) new premiums from 49 modelers after 3 years
    There were approximately 100 Semi-Premiums in GT6, also.

    Now ignore for the time being that this includes duplicates, on the proviso that the duplicate rate stays the same going forwards, and that Standard culling brings their duplicate rate in line with the Premiums (important for Premiumification, too).
    Feel free to repeat with the numbers of "unique cars" instead, I don't know them or where to find all of them, and am generally unfamiliar with them (and I distrust their subjective nature, to some extent.)


    GT5 was 1.43 cars per modeler per year.
    GT6 was 1.36 cars per modeler per year.


    Why the 5% drop? What if that's the Premiumification? Let's assume for the sake of argument that the difference is entirely due to that task.


    If x is the number of modelers pulled off making Premiums to Premiumificate Standards for GT6, and their modeling speed is assumed to be the same as for GT5, then we have the following simple situation:

    A: 163 = 38 * 1.43 * 3
    B: 200 = 49 * 1.36 * 3
    C: 200 = (49 - x) * 1.43 * 3
    D: 100 = x * R * 3


    A and B are the above figures restated for clarity.
    C is the work done on Premiums only
    D is the work on Semi-Premiums, at a rate R cars per modeler per year.

    Clearly, from B and C:
    49 * 1.36 = (49 - x) * 1.43
    x = 49 * ( 1 - [1.36 / 1.43]) = 2.39
    modelers

    Giving from D:
    R = 100 / (x * 3) = 13.9 Semi-Premium cars per modeler per year

    And:
    13.9 / 1.43 = 9.72 times faster

    I.e., the rate at which GT6's Semi-Premiums can be made is almost ten times that at which its Premiums can be made.


    If this is accurate, which it is by no means guaranteed to be, it means that all the Standards could be made Semi-Premium (in the style of GT6) by allocating half of the 49 modelers over another three years, and a further 100 Premiums (in the style of GT6) can be made in that time period as well. PD have more modelers now.

    However, the Semi-Premiums are not as a whole especially detailed, and it remains to be seen what the "final product" is intended to be on that front. It is merely an extrapolation of the current situation. There's also an argument to be had that the cars made Semi-Premium in GT6 have amongst them an exceptionally high level of duplication, higher than the Standards as a whole (which itself is higher than the Premiums). But true "duplicates" won't be missed, and so, with culling, it is still representative as far as the quantity of unique vehicles is concerned if you apply your own personal scaling factor of the weighted ratio of the Premium duplicate rate and the Semi-Premium duplicate rate.

    I used the highest number of modelers for each game, but it basically only really assumes the same relative rate of growth of the team over the development time for each game.

    There's still the small matter that 1.43 cars per modeler per year is just over 8 months per car, a 40% overrun on Kaz's figure (effectively 27% of their work is unaccounted for, assuming they really do work at the 6 month rate).


    Interesting, nonetheless.
    Of course, we're still technically in the same situation: we don't know how long they take.
     
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  22. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    GT6 had 200 new premiums? IIRC not counting duplicates/base models/liveries it was less than 100, less than half your total and completely nullifies your calculations.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-05-gran-turismo-6-a-list-of-all-1197-cars

    124 new cars including duplicates. I count at least 30 duplicates of new cars and cars that were premium in GT5 but with a base, white model released for GT6.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  23. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    I'm pretty sure I nullified my own points in several places. I went by total car count and assumed the duplicate rate is constant, or did you just stop reading?

    Like I said, feel free to run the numbers yourself, it's plug and play with the way I've written it. I'm not familiar enough with them to do that off hand. It's really just for interest's sake.

    Don't forget the Standard -> Premium conversions, which aren't included in the 124, so your condescension is completely nullified; hubric, even.

    Note my concluding remark.
     
  24. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

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    You've been told many times what my numbers were and I'm sure you're well aware of it. 40-50/year and it's been consistent for 10 years right through the PS3 era.
     
  25. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    No, not that - the raw numbers. Don't contribute if you don't want to, it's fine.

    The cars for GT5P only taking a year to make seems to mess with your ten year figure a bit, though.

    Also, I didn't think there were 400 to 500 unique Premium cars in GT6 (actually released only 9 years after GT4).
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  26. Zuku

    Zuku

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    I've been saying that part in bold for the longest, but everyone wants to keep all cars. I can literally play a racing game that had 150 cars or less and still be satisfied if the rest of the game stacks up.

    That car count crap is just one of those hey my (insert whatever bigger than yours here) arguments it's great, but then you ask what else can it do etc.
     
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  27. F1jocker12

    F1jocker12 (Banned)

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    The answer for the thread question is YES! No lunar missions, less cars, clever and constant development.... There are so many areas to improve. If they don't release GT7 at the end of 2016, they risk loosing players because of game console development. On top of that, PD needs to push for a wider hardware compatibility for GT7, get involved and ask Sony to release the wheel drivers to Logitech and Fanatec, work with whoever is interested in manufacturing high quality hardware for their game and Sony's platform. You don't want to narrow that possibility, you want to expand it.


    I hope FIA collaboration will change many things in Gran Turismo world, because Todt is looking for a long partnership at different levels, and GT is a superb platform to do that. On the other hand, more racing fans can be informed and attracted to GT thru advertisement at FIA events.


    I have to admit that PD is misleading when it comes to development and certain releases, its representatives not having the clarity and the commitment required in a harsh business environment. The fact that their product is relatively cheap and most of the new implemented features during the games life are free, doesn't change the fact that they have to communicate clearly and constantly about the companys projects. In case Kaz wants to surprise his fans, it's alright, but he also has a business relationship with his buyers, so he needs to respect that as well.


    I am sure PD will try to have racing drivers involved in certain events, when they will race against players. I remember David Coulthard was involved in something like this few years ago when he drove a Merc around TopGear track... Some racing drivers will love to promote the sport and stay in contact with (or make more) fans thru Gran Turismo media events or simply game races.


    At this point, if I'll be in Kaz's shoes, I'll come out to present all the GT achievements, speak about ups and downs, about working with and for Sony, and explain which direction PD is going to. Even if he is working hard, by hiding and not having constant contact with GT fans is a mistake.
     
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  28. StigBelcherStyl

    StigBelcherStyl

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    Why are we leaving out these many Great Features
    • Red bull - (An amazing partner for Gran Turismo so many great events and cars?)
    • Racing Driver Collaborations - (This gave you awesome cars like the Senna Collection, Mario Andretti's Hudson Hornet just to name a couple)
    • Moon Missions - (1. Amazing test of a simulation program, 2. Trying to replicate a low gravity environment, 3. did you know when they were attempting this they used actual digital scans of the moons surface?)
    • Vision GT - (Visionary project between car manufacturers and the people, shows glimpses of each companies future ideas)
    • Standards - (Well yes they might not be the best looking cars in the game but they offer some diversity and infinite choices to models, Personally my country in the game is displayed by 3 standard cars so I don't want them removed it would be awesome if they were updated I agree)

    Just do not want to see amazing one-off's disappear into Gran Turismo's Storage box.

    Examples:

    Cars
    Benz Patent Motorwagen, 1886 (Gran Turismo 4)
    Daimler Motor Carriage, 1886 (Gran Turismo 4)
    Ferrari F10, 2012 (Gran Turismo 5)
    Ferrari F2007, 2007 (Gran Turismo 5)
    Ford Model T Tourer, 1915 (Gran Turismo 4)
    Toyota Pod Concept, 2001 (Gran Turismo Concept Tokyo-Geneva 2001)

    Tracks
    Circuit de la Comunitat Valeciana Ricardo Tormo (Gran Turismo PSP)
    Driving Park: Complex String (Gran Turismo 3)
    Pod Racing Circuit (Gran Turismo Concept Tokyo-Geneva 2001)
    Other Missing Circuits Refer to Gran Turismo Wiki
     
  29. StigBelcherStyl

    StigBelcherStyl

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    Did a count of the number of cars in categories of Gran Turismo 6

    Premium Cars (Complete) = 424 cars
    Premium Cars (No Interior) = 2 cars
    Standard Cars = 802 cars
    Vision GT Cars = 12 cars

    Total in GT6 = 1,240 cars

    Just one Question How many Premium cars do you Get in a Forza Game, also next time you check look at the quality of the cars?

    Forza Motorsport 4 (Including All DLC) = 665 cars
    Forza Motorsport 5 (Including All DLC) = 280 cars
    Forza Horizon 2 (Including All DLC) = 253 cars
     
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  30. Griffith500

    Griffith500

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    The key word is "unique". We need to go through each and every car and determine how much of its creation was effectively shared effort with other cars.

    I know this work has been done, because people go on about the duplicates all the time.

    I don't have the expertise to determine the effort required in representing the smaller differences, and I actually expected a bigger response from those who are more comfortable with that.