Should PD focus more on quality and consistency next time?

[Johnnypenso]

Using "semi-premium" cars and then going ahead and spending a staggering amount of hours per car on brand new "premium" interior modelling is pointless. Either full premium or nothing. There's too much car and track stuff that could be modelled/upgraded instead with this time. There was a poll somewhere asking which view people prefer, and cockpit was 20% I believe.. on a Gran Turismo enthusiast forum! I'd guess it's more like 10% overall.. staistics PD surely has collected when logging in.

Coincidentally, I was looking through a leaderboard for Project Cars and found something interesting - http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=697498609&vehicle=2017392050
See the fourth column under assists? That's the view, and that column of mostly "I's" tells you that in that TT, the most difficult car to drive on the most difficult track, more than 8/10 in the top 100 are using cockpit mode. I've checked a few other TT's anecdotally and it seems cockpit view usage is very high.

Is this what happens when you give players almost total adjustability of both seating position in the cockpit and FOV? I was stunned that so many people use the cockpit view, knowing that in GT, from what I've read anyway, cockpit view is not very popular. After playing AC and PCars over the past year I'm not sure I could even play a game that didn't have fully adjustable cockpit view anymore.

 

[MXH]

There was a poll somewhere asking which view people prefer, and cockpit was 20% I believe.. on a Gran Turismo enthusiast forum! I'd guess it's more like 10% overall.. staistics PD surely has collected when logging in.

Not the least surprised. The cockpit view in GT5 and GT6 are/were simply just dreadful much thanks to the nonexistent adjustability. Hardly used it in comparison to - let's say - pCARS; where I almost exclusively use the cockpit view. Project CARS felt like a fresh breath of air in that regard and as Johnny pointed out, I honestly can't see myself going back to anything else after been given the option to adjust it to my liking.

 

[occasionalracer]

Coincidentally, I was looking through a leaderboard for Project Cars and found something interesting - http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=697498609&vehicle=2017392050
See the fourth column under assists? That's the view, and that column of mostly "I's" tells you that in that TT, the most difficult car to drive on the most difficult track, more than 8/10 in the top 100 are using cockpit mode. I've checked a few other TT's anecdotally and it seems cockpit view usage is very high.

Is this what happens when you give players almost total adjustability of both seating position in the cockpit and FOV? I was stunned that so many people use the cockpit view, knowing that in GT, from what I've read anyway, cockpit view is not very popular. After playing AC and PCars over the past year I'm not sure I could even play a game that didn't have fully adjustable cockpit view anymore.

For sure that's a thing PD needs have for GT7, I have always dreaded the boxed in feeling and wanted adjustability, cause right now, imo, bumper/normal view would be the most realistic. But even once that's done, PD shouldn't dump all their cars because of the blacked-out interiors..

Nice drive there on the Ring JP.. just wonder how the 1st placer pulled that time with aids galore?? That doesn't seem right..

Still haven't tried PCars, don't have a PS4 yet, but just picked up a good used Sony Vaio laptop with a 1GB gfx card, probably not going to download PCars because of the power hungry-ness, but AC should run ok.. looking forward to the driving experience/differences there. PCars will be bought once most of the bugs are squashed out.. hopefully by Christmas time. 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

For sure that's a thing PD needs have for GT7, I have always dreaded the boxed in feeling and wanted adjustability, cause right now, imo, bumper/normal view would be the most realistic. But even once that's done, PD shouldn't dump all their cars because of the blacked-out interiors..

Nice drive there on the Ring JP.. just wonder how the 1st placer pulled that time with aids galore?? That doesn't seem right..

Still haven't tried PCars, don't have a PS4 yet, but just picked up a good used Sony Vaio laptop with a 1GB gfx card, probably not going to download PCars because of the power hungry-ness, but AC should run ok.. looking forward to the driving experience/differences there. PCars will be bought once most of the bugs are squashed out.. hopefully by Christmas time. 👍

The "1st" place time is a mistake. For whatever reason, sometimes when you start a lap and don't complete it, it counts that partial lap as a full lap. Happened to me in one of the SMS events and I believe I was the eventual winner with a ridiculous time at Brands Hatch, like 28s or something like that. The first person to really use aids is 5th (6th) place. GTP's own @jimipitbull is up there in 3rd place too.

 

[gtracedriver1]

Using "semi-premium" cars and then going ahead and spending a staggering amount of hours per car on brand new "premium" interior modelling is pointless. Either full premium or nothing. There's too much car and track stuff that could be modelled/upgraded instead with this time. There was a poll somewhere asking which view people prefer, and cockpit was 20% I believe.. on a Gran Turismo enthusiast forum! I'd guess it's more like 10% overall.. staistics PD surely has collected when logging in.

I welcome anything premium thet can throw at us, but really there's only so much content you can expect for $60, and it's already A LOT. This time, they can carry everything high-polygon over to PS4, we should have a ton of beautiful content to look at. EVEN IF it means a large lot with cockpit-less "semi-premium", I'll take em, and yes the worst standards should maybe be removed, but just give online lobby hosts the option to allow/disallow semi's and the whole world will be happy. My feeling is the fewest people will set their lobby to 'only premium allowed'...

All the new cars to be premium for sure 👍 I was just talking about existing semi standard and VGT to be upgraded with cockpit view. Poor model standard will look pixelated even on 1080P. Premium look great already. For PS4 they will obviously touch up the cars and tracks with better textures. Codemasters said according to their survey cockpit view was not important so they excluded it from Grid2. Even though they don't even have 100 cars I think. IMHO cockpit view is a must for sims. Even though you cannot get best times out of it more often than not it is fun and adds immersion.

Not the least surprised. The cockpit view in GT5 and GT6 are/were simply just dreadful much thanks to the nonexistent adjustability. Hardly used it in comparison to - let's say - pCARS; where I almost exclusively use the cockpit view. Project CARS felt like a fresh breath of air in that regard and as Johnny pointed out, I honestly can't see myself going back to anything else after been given the option to adjust it to my liking.

GT6 got 3 view for cockpit. I usually select the closet one but some cars have the default view pretty good as well. Pcars has the best cockpit view with FOV adjustment so hopefully GT7 will have it but GT6 is not bad either

 

[Johnnypenso]

All the new cars to be premium for sure 👍 I was just talking about existing semi standard and VGT to be upgraded with cockpit view. Poor model standard will look pixelated even on 1080P. Premium look great already. For PS4 they will obviously touch up the cars and tracks with better textures. Codemasters said according to their survey cockpit view was not important so they excluded it from Grid2. Even though they don't even have 100 cars I think. IMHO cockpit view is a must for sims. Even though you cannot get best times out of it more often than not it is fun and adds immersion.

The data appears to disagree with you. From the two current TT's in PCars:
http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=697498609&vehicle=2017392050 Top 3 + 18 out of first 20 = cockpit cam

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=3387066030&vehicle=2546290331 Top time + 5 out of top 10 = cockpit cam

Fast drivers are fast drivers no matter what view they choose and this kind of proves to me there is no downside to using cockpit cam for hotlapping. It also tells me that, given the option of a fully adjustable cockpit cam, many drivers will choose it over the other views. More than 80% of the top 100 in the Yellowbird TT use cockpit cam. Doesn't mean everyone likes it, just means it doesn't appear to slow you down.

 

[Castrol96]

PD Seriously needs increase its modelling team. Maybe a larger group for making premiums and a separate group for improving the Standards. No one wants to see a untouched asset!

 

[RAMburger]

The game should really be nothing but premium cars. I really don't see the point of even using cars there were just crapped out to boost the overall count. They are a waste of time, money and effort.

This whole series needs to set a new standard for driving simulators for this generation, and it won't be done using standard cars (no pun).

Every car put in the game should have the same attention to detail. I'd rather take a car count of 300 pristine ones that are thrilling to see and drive than an extra 1,000 knock-offs that no one really feels good about using. There will also undoubtedly be DLC content down the road too to further boost the premium count, hopefully at reasonable pricing or included with a collector's edition.


The other main blemish on the series is by far, SOUND. MIDI has no place in any game in this day and age. It is incredibly disheartening playing a modern driving game with cars that sound like they were ripped from an N64 game.

I want to feel the violent hum of a tuner and the roar of a V8 pumped through 7.1 channels, with accuracy both inside and out.


The AI and damage modeling I'm sure will be worked out to greater detail and accuracy. Most everything else can do with just iteration, and is icing on the cake.

 

[gtracedriver1]

The data appears to disagree with you. From the two current TT's in PCars:
http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=697498609&vehicle=2017392050 Top 3 + 18 out of first 20 = cockpit cam

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.com/index.php/leaderboard?track=3387066030&vehicle=2546290331 Top time + 5 out of top 10 = cockpit cam

Fast drivers are fast drivers no matter what view they choose and this kind of proves to me there is no downside to using cockpit cam for hotlapping. It also tells me that, given the option of a fully adjustable cockpit cam, many drivers will choose it over the other views. More than 80% of the top 100 in the Yellowbird TT use cockpit cam. Doesn't mean everyone likes it, just means it doesn't appear to slow you down.

Those are still very few people consisting of steam players only. I watched some other leader board and it is mixed bag there. The HUD view and is the fastest one in judging braking and corner exit speeds and the most used I am sure. I think since cockpit view is more immersive faster player like to use it. IMHO if you can do good times in it there is a good chance of going even faster using this view:

 

[Johnnypenso]

Those are still very few people consisting of steam players only. I watched some other leader board and it is mixed bag there. The HUD view and is the fastest one in judging braking and corner exit speeds and the most used I am sure. I think since cockpit view is more immersive faster player like to use it. IMHO if you can do good times in it there is a good chance of going even faster using this view:

So let me get this straight. You say cockpit view doesn't give you the fastest times. I show you data illustrating that you can get the fastest times out of cockpit view and your response is, "I think you can go faster using this view". Makes sense.

/s

The point isn't that one view is necessarily any faster than the other. The point is that you can be the fastest using cockpit view as the results of that leaderboard, and many others, show. Those same drivers could probably have chosen hood view or some other view they like and been just as fast. Cockpit view is no handicap as you asserted.

 

[Com Fox]

Asking for Graphics to be consistent is like asking for a CGI Trailer or Cutscene to be actual gameplay.

 

[gtracedriver1]

So let me get this straight. You say cockpit view doesn't give you the fastest times. I show you data illustrating that you can get the fastest times out of cockpit view and your response is, "I think you can go faster using this view". Makes sense.

/s

The point isn't that one view is necessarily any faster than the other. The point is that you can be the fastest using cockpit view as the results of that leaderboard, and many others, show. Those same drivers could probably have chosen hood view or some other view they like and been just as fast. Cockpit view is no handicap as you asserted.

My point is that those player prefer cockpit view because of immersion. It comes down to the player itself. As well as track, car combination. If the same player choose different view like the one I posted. There is a good chance to go faster. Also 10-15 people of steam players does not mean much. If you have the time take at least 100players if not more from all tack and we can know which view is most popular for steam users.

 

[TayeezSA]

Asking for Graphics to be consistent is like asking for a CGI Trailer or Cutscene to be actual gameplay.

(Whips out GT3 & Gt4 to disagree with your post.)

 

[TiZzla]

If GT7 wants to be considered a good next gen game every car needs to be the same quality. What other racing game has one bunch of cars that are extremely detailed and then another bunch that are upgraded versions of actual Playstation 2 models

As long as the car count is still around 500-600 they will be ahead of Forza, they need to get rid of all the stupid unnecessary cars including all the variants of the same car and cars that don't belong in a racing game (cough moon buggy cough).

 

[syntex123]

I hope they ditch all duplicates and merge the different specs into one car, like for example a 2012 Dodge Charger. You go in to it, where you select color you also have a button to change spec, a menu that shows SRT8, R/T, Super Bee etc. And all the standards that then are left to be in the game gets a total makeover. Premium.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My point is that those player prefer cockpit view because of immersion. It comes down to the player itself. As well as track, car combination. If the same player choose different view like the one I posted. There is a good chance to go faster. Also 10-15 people of steam players does not mean much. If you have the time take at least 100players if not more from all tack and we can know which view is most popular for steam users.

Agreed, cockpit view is popular for immersion, I don't disagree with that, I just disagree with the part where you said, "you cannot get the best times out of it", which is a false narrative. It's not 10-15 people on Steam, the data I gave you was more than 1000 participants, more than enough to be a representative sample of the database. I see no evidence that you can't be just as fast in cockpit as any other view. If that was the case, cockpit view would cluster near the bottom of the rankings and external view near the top but in fact, the opposite is usually true. Here's another TT, run at the same time as the YB TT, and it shows cockpit cam dominating the top 100 and external camera views dominating the bottom.

http://cars-stats-steam.wmdportal.c...rd?track=3387066030&vehicle=2546290331&page=1

That's not to say that cockpit view is faster than external, just that cockpit view is no hinderance and it dominates the top of leaderboards simply because it is no hinderance and better drivers in a sim tend to choose it.

 

[HKS racer]

I tend to use cockpit view only one those cars that place the driver in the middle of the chassis like McLaren F1 or various Formula cars.

With other cars I have the problem I need to force myself to remember the dimensions of the car. It would be much easier with a 3 monitor setup where you can actually see the rest of the interiors. Unfortunately is not always possible to use a 3 monitor setup.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

@Johnnypenso @gtracedriver1 Some people are faster in cockpit view, some aren't. Let's just leave it at that.

Regarding the topic: quality and consistency are crucial to a good game. However, and this is where I differ from most, I think duplicates are OK to a point. This is something that irks me about Forza Horizon 2: from what I can tell, almost every car in the game is the fastest available trim level for that model, with a few exceptions. What if I don't want that trim level? What if I want a slower but more comfortable trim level to cruise around in? Then guess what: I don't have that option. I either have to pick a different car that's not the car I want, or I have to tune it to drive like I want it to. Having said that, 20 different versions of the same car is ridiculous.

 

[chzsln485]

I imagine something like this for GT7:

There'll be around 400-500 Premium cars.
There'll be around 200 Semi-Premium cars (upgraded exterior and no interior).
There'll be around 600 Standard cars.

Not ideal, certainly (it would be better to have 1400 full Premium cars or whatever), but I would be alright with that. I would pretty much exclusively use the first two categories, but as daft as it sounds, I think the huge car count and the inclusion of oddities in the car list are characteristic of GT.

Put it like this, the Premium car count is the "main" car count, on par with Forza's car list, and the extra Semi-Premiums and Standards are just a little something extra. There are a few important details to account for to make that a viable way to play the game, however.

Firstly, the Premium car selection would need to be broad enough to be used in isolation, which I think GT5 did a good job of. GT6, however, had too many major new road cars missing from the Premium car line-up, which was disappointing. A select few of the most popular and notable Standard cars should be fully upgraded too. Twinned with that would be a career mode designed to be completed using Premium cars. In essence, the game needs to be complete enough with the Premium cars alone to make the Standard cars not seem like filler for an inadequate Premium car list.

Secondly, there needs to be a way to hide the Standard cars, so people who don't want to see them don't have to. Stick all the Standards in the traditional UCD set up (which I can see PDI doing on account of not wanting to spoil the PS4-quality looks of the game), or in some way make to completely hide them from the game for people who don't want to see them.

It wouldn't be ideal to have Standard cars crop up again in a PS4 game, but a few canny decisions could easily keep both the quality and quantity camps happy.

Now, we just need PDI to make those decisions...

 

[syntex123]

Move the bad looking standard cars to a junkyard, so that the people who want to use them, will have to salvage them. Hahaha.

 

[TayeezSA]

To put the standard vs premium car debate simply :

Would you like a Red Velvet cake that's half baked and the rest enough to send your tastebuds out of this world?

I'd like a fully baked cake please.

I'm still of the notion that standards should go though a few should turn premium.

Graphical consistency is the name of the
game.

 

[Tired Tyres]

It's all premium or its nothing at all as far as I'm concerned. Two generation old cars have no place on a PS4.

As for this semi-premium idea. That was actually a PD idea indicating cars in the GT5 car list that had a cockpit but were not up the the quality of the full premiums.

 

[Johnnypenso]

[/QUOTE]Forza Horizon is an arcade game so having every car at it's maxed out version makes sense in that contex

I imagine something like this for GT7:

There'll be around 400-500 Premium cars.
There'll be around 200 Semi-Premium cars (upgraded exterior and no interior).
There'll be around 600 Standard cars.

Not ideal, certainly (it would be better to have 1400 full Premium cars or whatever), but I would be alright with that. I would pretty much exclusively use the first two categories, but as daft as it sounds, I think the huge car count and the inclusion of oddities in the car list are characteristic of GT.

Put it like this, the Premium car count is the "main" car count, on par with Forza's car list, and the extra Semi-Premiums and Standards are just a little something extra. There are a few important details to account for to make that a viable way to play the game, however.

Firstly, the Premium car selection would need to be broad enough to be used in isolation, which I think GT5 did a good job of. GT6, however, had too many major new road cars missing from the Premium car line-up, which was disappointing. A select few of the most popular and notable Standard cars should be fully upgraded too. Twinned with that would be a career mode designed to be completed using Premium cars. In essence, the game needs to be complete enough with the Premium cars alone to make the Standard cars not seem like filler for an inadequate Premium car list.

Secondly, there needs to be a way to hide the Standard cars, so people who don't want to see them don't have to. Stick all the Standards in the traditional UCD set up (which I can see PDI doing on account of not wanting to spoil the PS4-quality looks of the game), or in some way make to completely hide them from the game for people who don't want to see them.

It wouldn't be ideal to have Standard cars crop up again in a PS4 game, but a few canny decisions could easily keep both the quality and quantity camps happy.

Now, we just need PDI to make those decisions...

On the surface it seems like a reasonable proposal to make the standards sort of second class cars, but at the same time, it would be like PD admitting the archive is somehow not part of the real game or something they should be embarassed about. If they are going to go that route, I'd rather just see them have the old cars as a completely separate DLC with the entire game built around the premium content, and the standards as legacy assets that you can have if you want to drive or race them, but they aren't part of the base game at all.

 

[occasionalracer]

On the surface it seems like a reasonable proposal to make the standards sort of second class cars, but at the same time, it would be like PD admitting the archive is somehow not part of the real game or something they should be embarassed about. If they are going to go that route, I'd rather just see them have the old cars as a completely separate DLC with the entire game built around the premium content, and the standards as legacy assets that you can have if you want to drive or race them, but they aren't part of the base game at all.

That is without a doubt the best way to go about it. I really wonder how the licensing goes with all the vehicles, if they actually have to reach out to each company to get renewed approval to be included in GT7, cause apparently PS1 and PS2 GT HD remakes are impossible because of this very reason.. some will not want to agree to be re-represented for whatever reason..

So, it's hard to say how much effort and paperwork goes into the licensing operation, if most of them are a cakewalk to get, then that's awesome. I agree that it's got to be a DLC, and a surprise DLC at that, which doesn't appear until 4-6 months after release. Why? Because we don't want to have the mega critics around the web taking an entire star off because they can't handle having their eyes destroyed by the oh so horribly obvious pixel count... lol, of course they'll have to find something wrong with what they're reviewing... *sigh*..

 

[chzsln485]

On the surface it seems like a reasonable proposal to make the standards sort of second class cars, but at the same time, it would be like PD admitting the archive is somehow not part of the real game or something they should be embarassed about. If they are going to go that route, I'd rather just see them have the old cars as a completely separate DLC with the entire game built around the premium content, and the standards as legacy assets that you can have if you want to drive or race them, but they aren't part of the base game at all.

True. Whichever PDI choose of the two, (imagining they do anything like that), I just hope the main thing that comes from GT7 is that it can stand up as a relatively full game with the Premium content.