Should PD focus more on quality and consistency next time?

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Strittan, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. Pseudopod

    Pseudopod

    Messages:
    1,077
    Are you using the terms fps and hz interchangably, or is there some nuance of difference you want to highlight that I don't know of? :p
     
  2. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    @sems4arsenal

    Okay now that I'm back at a computer lol ditching standards we agree keeping premiums

    Keeping it short we just went through the fact that not all standards/premiums/cars period were created equal there may actually exist 7 tiers of detail in GT6 by itself could be 8 when Gt7 comes out.

    The 100 cars thing wouldn't be so bad to start out with I'll just keep it simple though. 30 cars maximum would be racers including WRC/GT/whatever(I don't know the classifications I'll admit) another 30 would be your cars everyone dreams to own. Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, and so on and so forth. Even throw special edition of certain cars into that mix like Shelby Cobra. Other 40 just plain everyday cars same with tracks limit them so they can fix them up we're in PS4 era of gaming not PS2.

    All that is to say at the very least they could be working on the actual core game we've all been whining/crying about flag/penalty system, A.I, grid starts, Online, Offline, etc etc etc.

    I've said this before they fix the A.I, flag/penalty system, and add in grid starts I can keep my mouth shut even if they give me 1197 cars or just 100 cause at that point I'll be entertained for that current time being I won't just throw my toys down and pout like I did upon realize how much money someone wasting buying (GT6(IMO)).
     
  3. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    Hz is just the "ps" in fps. It's not always clear what the "f", a frame, actually is (e.g. interlacing), and that will get more confusing in future as sparse display updates become a thing.

    I use it in the sense of the feedback loop between player and game. A 60 Hz game has a minimum delay of 16 milliseconds between input and a change appearing in the display (feedback). How that change is achieved, from full frames to a single pixel, is almost irrelevant.

    So it acts as a target: after 16 milliseconds, be sure to have something new to show.
     
  4. Pseudopod

    Pseudopod

    Messages:
    1,077
    So you're saying that GT3/4 did 60 interlaced frames a second, and that it manages to keep it like that almost all the time, right? How often did it update the screen if you ran the game in progressive mode?

    Just curious, how would you describe mario kart 8 in 4-player split screen? It updates the screen 60 times a second, but it alternates updating the upper two players and bottom two players every other frame, so each player effectively gets 30 updates a second even if the game updates the screen 60 times a second.

    When talking about how the change is achieved on the display, aren't frames rendered in their entirety in the graphics card of whatever machine you're playing on, regardless of how big a portion of the display is being updated? I mean, a game could render things at 100 full frames per second even if the display could only display 60 interlaced frames a second. It would be a huge waste and also lead to screen tearing, but it is possible, right?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
  5. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    No, I have no idea of the frame structure. But it was definitely 60 of them per second, according to my TV.

    Your example is clearly 30 Hz from a player perspective, but 60 Hz from the video perspective - except it's only over half the screen. ;)

    These are the kids of tricks generally unavailable on PC, but de rigeur, historically, on consoles (and PC pre 3D APIs; i.e. "software renderer"s).
     
  6. Pseudopod

    Pseudopod

    Messages:
    1,077
    If your TV says the game was running in 60 hz mode, isn't it still possible that the game would display the same frame across two refresh cycles? I mean, my TV reports 60 hz mode when I play GT6, but very often, the game is updating the screen less often than 60 times a second. That could be the case of GT3 and 4 too. I guess I could hook my PS2 up to my capture device, and run the video file through some sort of frame analyzer to get an accurate reading. I'm not sure what sort of software I should use for that though.

    Also, are we actually agreeing but saying it in different ways?
     
  7. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    If the TV says 60 Hz, it's getting 60 Hz. That's how the hardware works.
    I.e., the output hardware may send the same frame every time, that's still 60Hz.

    But duplicating frames once each at 60 Hz doesn't look or feel like 60 Hz. Hence why "f" is so difficult to pin down. There's a difference between reading then relaying an array, and computing something to put in it.

    I don't know what we're supposed to be disagreeing upon.
     
  8. Pseudopod

    Pseudopod

    Messages:
    1,077
    No, i'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing. Or trying to get the same point across with different words.
     
  9. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    It seems likely. However, there is a difference between the way GT2 slowed down, and the way the current games "slow down".

    The issue is missing the clock on the display hardware, and effectively having to wait for the next bus. Either you slow the game down to match (GT2), or you destroy information in the feedback stream (tearing, dropped frames). Neither really works.

    That's why I mention non full-frame hardware updates. nVidia already has a non clock-locked (i.e. software led) screen refresh, with supported hardware. The frame displays when it's drawn, and isn't torn, doesn't have to wait etc. That can be taken further, down to the per pixel basis.

    This is the difference between a pre recorded and an interactive medium, and the issue with TVs in general.
    Having said that, you can save power by only updating those pixels that change, mpeg style...
     
  10. sems4arsenal

    sems4arsenal Premium

    Messages:
    15,415
    Location:
    Egypt
    That's assuming the people who model cars are the same responsible for say coding a new feature etc.

    I know some premiums looks (slightly better) than others but PD said all were future proof, so with some texture work they all should be fine.
     
  11. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    I don't know why that keeps coming up. Flags, grid starts and the AI have nothing to do with how many cars are in the game, or how long it takes to make any of the "seven tiers" of cars.
     
    TayeezSA likes this.
  12. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Who's to say they can't multi-task, but all I'm getting at is simple break it down and start over they can add more programmers, and correct the core things.

    From my view point I've seen the car count go up since GT3, and I'm linking the fact that since both GT5/GT6 had the highest car counts and both are mostly complained about(although looking back GT5 was far better than 6). That they been focusing more on that aspect than anything else. I'm just offering them up a chance(IMO) to completely wipe the slate clean.

    To me number of cars isn't that important. It's the game it's the reason I play Codemasters games right now.
     
  13. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,425
    Location:
    Canada
    I think the dilemma is and always will be, that the more hardcore gamer issues aren't necessarily a big deal or even noticable to the casual gamer that the game is aimed at. The guy who just wants to plug the game in and race a few cars with his buddies probably doesn't know that camber doesn't work well, or tuning adjustments are wonky or care that his 60's Ferrari can corner like a modern sports car or many of the other finer details that many of us care about in the game. It's got to weigh heavily on their decision making to look back at what has worked in the past and made the game wildly successful and struggle with deviating from that path. Would a more serious, more real life career mode attract more players for example and turn off many who are just looking for a fun game? Would standing starts and competitive AI really spur sales or would many people give up because the AI is too hard?

    Tough questions, but I wouldn't be surprised if GT7 is very much like GT6,5 etc in the vast majority of it's content.
     
    wraith of horus and Zuku like this.
  14. Schmiggz

    Schmiggz

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Canada
    1. I don't agree at all with ditching all standards. There are some absolutely amazing standards that would break my heart seeing them go. RUF's, Zonda's, rally cars like the Mitsu super rally, just to name a few.
    2. Bring the amount of cars down to around 100 would be one silly mistake. In a pp range from 360 to 700 field diversity would be literally murdered with only a very few options per category.
    3. I'm very positively surprised with how mature and civilized this forum has been going. It seems that sharing opinion has becoming a mission lately as the patterns of respect for others opinions took a dreadful twist in the last couple of years. Good job.
     
    Griffith500 likes this.
  15. Griffith500

    Griffith500

    Messages:
    8,611
    Unfortunately, correlation does not imply causation. Yes, the car count has gone up, and yes the game has become more confused as to who it is trying to cater to in its gameplay, but it's too simplistic to link the two in a causative sense.

    It's more like @Johnnypenso said regarding the difficult gameplay decisions, and striking that crucial balance. That's on top of the technical difficulty of long term gains not yielding interim benefits (e.g. sound, course maker, AI / BSpec), which overall has left us with a relatively disappointing couple of games.

    However, the long term plans were targeting PS4. There should be clues as to whether that's worked fairly early on, probably not too long from now.
     
  16. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Within that last sentence hope that isn't the case no matter how many adverts or whatever I won't be trying to purchase that game. Although that's just me.

    @Griffith500

    You're correct, but again I'm just going to wait and see what happens.
     
  17. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    31,516
    Location:
    Australia
    here's a question. Just who are those 10million buyers of Brand Turismo? The sales numbers have dwindled, but those buyers/players are doing/playing something.

    Before GT, I wasn't playing anything since Atari. The only other game I had for my PSX was Resident Evil 1. Those of us that keep buying GT, are hoping/expecting new things from game play.

    The thrill of collecting is gone. No need to race 300kms to get the specific color car we want. We can no longer get the sweaty palms or cramped fingers from trying to execute that turn in Seattle, so you don't hit the wall and lose precious tenths from the cars ahead.

    The game is all about content now. This is where GT are losing its buyers/players. Forget Standards. The game is too jumbled and too quick for Offline play. That casual player doesn't have time to buy items to customize or time to earn stars to drive the events they want. Hardcore players are left to use their imaginaction, in making the game viable for their communities.

    Several threads question if we'll purchase, support PD and future GT titles. Even if I didn't have the internet and join in these forums, I'd still buy the next GT to see what's new.
     
  18. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,358
    I don't know, the older I get the less I'm thrilled by the grind, the nonsense license tests, the stupid headstart AI gets in harder races in order to be somewhat competitive, tons of useless clones in the car dealership, having the same crap models for 10 years, the crappy sounds, the uninspired career that has offered me to do the same bunch of events for 15 years now. The series feels tired, Yamauchi comes off as a tired old man, he doesn't want to deal with fan's requests, he would much rather travel around the world, sip his expensive wine and drive the ring. It's perfectly understandable too, it's easy to be passionate about your work when you're in your 20's, much harder when you're pushing 50s. The man deserves a vacation.
     
  19. Schmiggz

    Schmiggz

    Messages:
    3,303
    Location:
    Canada
    I totally subscribe what you just said and you just pointed out all the reasons Granturismo fell dramatically in the racing games ranking. People are getting tired of the same old same old.
     
  20. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Guys who like me at least thought GT was the pinnacle of racing PERIOD! Back in time where the only games at the time of Gran Turismo 1 or even Gran Turismo 3 the only other games I remember was a random F1 game I had back on N64, and NFS that's it.

    I had sheer luck when I was a kid to witness what was Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed on PC the game was at a Scholastic Book Fair at my elementary school one year. I remember think it was when I was 10 or 11, but still I just was enamored with that game couldn't put it down(Hence big love of Porsche Cars today), and then came PS2 with GT3. The graphics everything just looked better, and for me the rest was history career mode was long and rewarding etc.

    Not saying everyone is like me, but I wouldn't be surprised and summing it all up more or less it was GT or bust. The only other racing games I knew at the time were Midnight Club/NFS I wasn't into F1 or the other games I'm into today.
     
  21. I've been with Gran Turismo from from GT1-GT6. Before Gran Turismo I was playing V Rally Championship Edition, Colin McRae, Destruction Derby 1, Driver, Toca Touring Car Championship, Toca 2 Touring Car Challenge, Porsche Challenge, Wipeout, one of the F1 games of which there are many and I can't rem which one exactly.

    And besides the racing games I probably was playing Crash Bandicoot, Metal Gear, and Tomb Raider games. I can't remember playing many other games as my memory doesn't serve me any further back memories. I think I was playing more games on PC or Gameboy maybe as I wasn't as much of a die hard console guy back then. Of course Sony changed it all with the Playstation console. Everyone wanted one.

    But I remember Gran Turismo being wowed by the graphics and car selection it was really really good. But so was V Rally, Toca, and Colin MCrae. They were a lot of fun which had me addicted and they were really really good games too. Gran Turismo was the first game to give you so many cars, customization and tracks and content. There was so much variety and things you could do to your car and Top Speed testing and special model race modifications. So much content it was leaps and bounds ahead of any other game I'd seen before.

    And of course before the Playstation who remembers Ayrton Senna on the Megadrive 16Bit Japanese Edition with the Purple striping on it which meant I could not cheat on it like the English version of the console which had White striping. I remember playing F1 on this too although I don't remember which one it was. I remember playing Road Rash and Sonic the Hedgehog which came with the console bundle. But odly my older brother bought the console and I wasn't into console gaming then and so I never really played hardly any games on it.

    Maybe this was because I remember my mum and dad buying me my first PC. I remember it right now. It was a Time Machine with 32MB of RAM, a 20-30GB HDD. AMD Duron or Athlon which was 433Mhz 32Bit CPU and Nvidia Riva TNT 32bit with 32MB RAM Graphics card. I think it was a OEM MSi red motherboard - I don't remember the model name. Wow I was playing games on this PC with a Flatron Monitor of some type I can't remember. 1024x680 CRT monitor - daaamn now I'm going back a bit.

    If I could afford a Dream PC I would order the Chillblast Prometheus. I said I was going to buy an Xbox One soon however I'm on holiday and not getting as much pay this month because my job is a temporary part time hours job and now my wage has just gone in. I could afford an Xbox One. But a day or two ago my Samsung Galaxy S3 smartphone has suddenly gone SDS on me. So idk what to do now I need a new phone. So i decided to wait and watch MCW on Mar 1st to see whether I'll like the Samsung galaxy S6 or the new HTC One M9. At least I'll be off work to see it.

    So I may save my money for one of these new phones or just make do with my old Nokia 5800M Music phone which never fails to disappoint, switch on on my 02 Top up SIM. So what a week it has been. Theres always something happening to mar my joy. So people what should I do? Any suggestions? I wanted to experience Forza 5 on the next Gen console and maybe even try Forza Horizon 2. Will it be worth it over buying a new phone if I can afford to just use my old 5800M Symbian phone for a while. hmmm decisions decisions! ahhhh :/
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2015
  22. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    31,516
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm surely not enthused about having to accumulate another 1.65mil Cr to purchase a car I haven't driven in a while. I clean out my garage a lot. I've sold all my cars and bought an NC MX-5. Tuned it to the new NC specs as close as possible. All I did was add RH tyres and custom suspension. For a game with 1200 cars, it feels like cable tv. So much on tv, but nothing of interest to watch.

    This is why I'm hoping for a rebirthed GT in GT7.
     
    Johnnypenso likes this.
  23. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    I'm just going off on a limb here, but that may be more to do with how crappy the career mode(GT mode) has been lately. I mean I had a blast when it really counted that I had to earn my license to access new things.

    In fact completely off topic that's something most games have been missing these days.
     
    Johnnypenso likes this.
  24. SimTourist

    SimTourist

    Messages:
    1,358
    Once you get a driver's license in real life, working for one in a video game seems a bit ridiculous.
     
    Zuku likes this.
  25. Downhill Dino

    Downhill Dino Premium

    Messages:
    11,532
    Location:
    United States
    I like the idea but realistically you are right, in a way. There are still levels of racing licenses to be acquired. GRID 1 executed this nicely, as an example.
     
  26. 05XR8

    05XR8

    Messages:
    31,516
    Location:
    Australia
    The very start of GT6 should have carried through the game. Drive the Renault Clio R.S. at several more tracks(like Silverstone and Mount Panorama) to get used to the physics and AI as well. Once we got thrust into choosing the Fit, it was the same ol same ol.
     
  27. Johnnypenso

    Johnnypenso Premium

    Messages:
    28,425
    Location:
    Canada
    I truly admire you if you can get motivated to go through basically the same routine over and over, from game to game, and still find it exciting and motivating. When I think of license tests, leveling up and game economies in racing games, I see nothing but pure drudgery. After having spent hundreds of hours racing online in the last few years and learning how to take cars to their limits, it just seems so pointless to suspend belief and pretend I'm a rookie again:yuck:.
     
    Schmiggz and F1jocker12 like this.
  28. Zuku

    Zuku

    Messages:
    1,063
    Location:
    United States
    Maybe you're right lol, but it's something I just miss from older games. I hate the HERE HAVE AT IT approach. They could make it like GT4 transfer files.

    @SimTourist

    I'll have to go back and play GT(any version) and see, but you could be right on that too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  29. mister dog

    mister dog (Banned)

    Messages:
    8,396
    Location:
    Belgium
    Well they threw in license tests on the moon this time, you know 'hit the cones' and all :D
     
  30. JDFSSS

    JDFSSS

    Messages:
    58
    I would say the best way to improve quality would be to cut a lot of stuff out of the game. With so many cars/tracks/game modes/features the game is way too bloated to ever reach the high quality that a gran turismo game deserves. I dont think it'