Sixaxis to G25 - 1 Year

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo 5: Prologue' started by Synwraith, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. GTP_Ingram

    GTP_Ingram Premium

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    I think the other thing that will take some getting used to is the fact that the only clue to finding the biting point of the clutch is purely when the revs drop, there isn't any feel to it like you would get in a real car, which means until i instinctively know where it is, it will take time to make smooth progress with the manual. It would be handy if there was a slight resistance in the clutch at the biting point, perhaps that would help it become more instinctive.
     
  2. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    510
    One question. I've been using the DF-GT for over a week now(total seat time that is). I can pretty much handle myself on the track. My only down fall is when the car looses control. It is so much harder to recover. What advice can you guys who are experience with the wheel can give me to learned how to prevent it or recover faster. Thanks for your help.
     
  3. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    It's just seat time... in time you'll be able to feel when the car is sliding and prevent it happening much earlier... when you first start out you'll generally react too late to slides starting and you'll also tend to over correct.

    You can usually catch the rear if it goes whilst under power by just lifting the throttle very slightly and easing a bit of lock off. When the rear goes whilst coming off the power or braking you can catch it by applying a small amount of throttle and again, reducing the steering angle.

    Preventing them happening is mostly about using small and smooth steering and throttle/brake inputs... the smoother you are the less you'll slide and the faster you'll go.
     
  4. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    510
    I can feel her going, but catching her is a whole different ball game. Getting better at it though. In the beginning, when she goes there are no tell sign. The more seat time I have the more of a feel I can get. It's just frustrating due to the competitive nature in me. Thanks for your help. I guess practice does make perfect.
     
  5. GTP_Ingram

    GTP_Ingram Premium

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    Yeah, I'm having the same trouble, I can tell its sliding, but then I end up pointing in the wrong direction wondering why I didnt do anything about it.

    One thing that I tried which I would reccomend is to do some drift trials. I went to Suzuka east in the Ferrari 599, and after a few attempts, I noticed a substantial diffenerce in my ability to hold and correct a slide from when I started. After a while your brain gets used to holding the slide by balancing both the throttle and the steering, something which I was lacking initially.
     
  6. Im going to make myself seem like a right idiot but what exactly is heel to toe?

    At the moment im alternating between using the shifter and paddles. So when I use the shifter im using my left foot for clutch, right foot for accelerator/brake. When I use the paddles im using left foot brake, right foot accelerator.

    I have to be honest im actually thinking of packing my G25 back into its box. The reason being is I bought the G25 for GT5 and I don't really want to wear it out. My plan is 1 month prior to GT5 I shall buy a cockpit and then do some serious practicing on GT5p.

    At the moment I really can't decide between a playseat evo or a Gameracer elite. I can pick up a brand new playseat for £245 but the Gameracer elite is £299.

    P.S I haven't had time to find those replays on GT5P but when I do I shall post back on here.
     
  7. GTP_Ingram

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    Heel and toe involves simultaneously braking and blipping the throttle with your right foot through each downchange. By blipping the throttle you match the engine speed to each downshift, making the car more stable on the brakes.

    Here's a clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JliPGde8jMM
     
  8. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    510
    :lol::lol::lol:

    I had discover that if the steering wheel feels numb, ease off the throttle and counter steer imediately. I find that the quicker you counter steer the better off you will be. My problems, I don't recognize it until it's too late.:banghead: I'm getting a lot better at it though.
     
  9. GTP_Ingram

    GTP_Ingram Premium

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    Yeah, the numb feeling is what throws me, its feels like you shouldn't fight it, but you really need to if you don't want to spin.

    Yep, me too. All its going to take is a lot of practice, with interludes of loud swearing :lol:
     
  10. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    510
    If you ever experience hydroplaning in your car before, that's exactly how it feels to me. And yes can't agree with you more on the swearing part....:lol: Mrs. Solarr already warned me several times....:mischievous:
     
  11. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    510
    I have improved tremendously with the wheels, thanks to EERS4YEARS and EASYIN and JPRO. They had enought patient to stay and waited and walk me through with different suspension etc....

    I've noticed that driving with the Wheel, for me personally the set up of the car is a little bit different from the Pads. Changing the brakes bias is hughe for the wheel comparable to the pads. It makes taking turn 1 at Suzi so much more fun.

    Maybe it's just me, but do you guys feel the same way?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  12. marchi

    marchi

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    Cudos to you. I've struggled with the shift from Controller to wheel in Gran Turismo. I honestly, need to set up a rig as it would help immensely, but I guess i don't have the patience. I play live for speed and was instantly quicker then my keyboard lap times, but on GT I struggle to match my times.

    LFS for me has a slightly better physics engine and Kaz would do well to copy the setup. GT feels like ice skating on clogs compared to LFS and for me thats not a good thing.
     
  13. GTP_Ingram

    GTP_Ingram Premium

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    I haven't had much opportunity to fiddle with the settings yet, i've been doing loads of time trials mainly, in a variety of different cars. I can see that some different settings would be needed when switching to a wheel, I may want the car to be slightly looser at the rear once I get good at catching the slides.

    I'm really pleased with my progress so far, considering its been about 5 or 6 days. In the tuned Lotus Elise at Eiger, I've managed to get up to 9th, only 0.2 off my best DS time (the DS time was done with my pippin4652 account, the G25 time with GTP_Ingram). I'm confident of beating my DS time here, I just need to string the whole lap together!
     
  14. TN2004S4

    TN2004S4

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    Putting together consisting lap time is much easier with the wheels once you get used to it. I don't even know why I've waited so so long to use the wheel. SO MUCH FUN!
     
  15. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    I'm now about half a second off my best DS3 times with the DF-GT. I went back to the DS3 for a quick comparison lap yesterday and I was shocked at how difficult it now feels to drive with a joypad. I very greatly missed the much increased range of steering the wheel gives and I went back to it quickly.

    I'm still having issues with getting the throttle down too hard or too soon out of corners so mentally I think I'm still in DS3 mode because of the help it gives you in these areas and it's costing me spins with the wheel.

    I have been using a combination of Arcade time trials because the cars have S2 tyres and some online work with PP tuned cars to do my learning. I suppose I would learn more if I concentrated on Arcade Time Trials.

    I can't put 10 whole laps together with FR and MR cars without at least one off though. Last night I did a race online HSR PP800 with the Amuse S2000. I was 14.5 Seconds in the lead with two laps to go and I spun in the esses. I got going again but used too much throttle on the exit and slid into the tunnel wall and picked up a 5 second penalty. The second place drive shot past me into the lead and I couldn't catch him up again. My head slumped into my hands resting on top of my wheel as I crossed the finishing line. So close and yet so far away.
     
  16. Leonidae

    Leonidae (Banned)

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    Another one has fallen into the realm of better steering method.. :mischievous: I wish that I could do some tinkering on my H-gate shifter though. it keeps mis-shifting, like throwing 5th when I want third and 4th when I want 2nd.. :irked: When will they come up with Finn-proof shifters?!
     
  17. The Jenius

    The Jenius

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    I've ready through this entire post but I can't seem to find the answer, and I ask only because people are talking about shifting etc.... I have two questions really.

    1. Which settings are applied to the G25 in the GT5P because there are 3 or 4 different wheels but none of them are G25 exactly so which should I adjust for my buttons.

    2. Is the clutch actually supported in GT5P because I find myself just using the sequential or flaps because the clutch doesn't seem to be necessary. I can just move the H-shifter around while at full throttle, no clutch applied and it shifts gears so I'm not sure of the point. I would love to use the clutch if it is necessary.
     
  18. The Jenius

    The Jenius

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    Nevermind
     
  19. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    4 Months

    Having now had the G25 for 4 months, I'm still noticing improvements in my driving, most of all in consistency and race pace, and of course laptime although the latter has been an improvement I didn't really notice occuring.

    • Laptimes
    It was my greatest hope that changing to this mode of controller would get me the laptimes I always saw others achieving and myself chasing hopelessly. 4 months on and the improvements are still coming incrementally, but surely.

    I've just recently tried my hand at some Lotus Evora arcade Time Trials to see where I ended up on the leaderboards. After a couple of days hotlapping (max 1.5 hour sessions) at Suzuka East I managed to get up to #4 on the board, only 0.03s slower than our newest D1 gold alien, GTP_Hyperspeed. Mine is the second-best non-clutch time on that leaderboard
    http://www.gtrankings.com/jp/gt5p/ranking/co6ca74s1m0.html

    I then moved to Fuji Speedway F in the same car and after a couple of hours managed 7th on that leaderboard
    http://www.gtrankings.com/jp/gt5p/ranking/co9ca74s1m0.html

    I'm also still participating in GTP Race Event 03 where I maintain a thread with all the best laptimes from any particular combo from that championship so far. You can see pretty much that in each successive stage (most recent at the top), I've been getting closer to the top time at each combo, and now in the most recent combo I'm currently faster than anyone else who has posted their time, at a track that I really don't consider my best at all. I'm pretty sure aliens like Mad94D, MeAgainstYou, Hyperspeed and Racer_LP will eventually beat my time with a few more laps, but for now I just cannot believe how much I've improved to be able to even compete at their level.

    Since last month I've been promoted to Division 2 gold, and hopefully will make the final step up to Division 1 in the not too distant future by either getting a decent finish in Event 03 or continuing to hotlap in the WRS, which i intend to go straight back to after my event run is over.


    • Race pace / Consistency
    This is the area, just like last month, where I feel very significant gains have been made. The Thunder & Lightning team started a Ferrari 512BB event at Suzuka 550PP on S3 tyres, and I've been able to run 5-lap races nose-to-tail with drivers such as Zabeu, Hyperspeed, RudiRaser, KOR team drivers, mr_VOLCANO, PrudentBear, JvM and MADFORCE and actually beat them as well. I know most of these guys are genuinely faster but the slipstream keeps you in touch enough to negate a 0.3s deficit between people's best laptimes. It's a very tricky car on S3s at Suzuka but I have been able to complete 95% of my races without error and running at the front, competitive with anybody. The best part being that if I did fall back a bit, I was able to pull it together and catch up again. Only on one or two occasions did Hyperspeed break free and just disappear. I've had some really nice compliments and messages from these guys throughout this event saying how much I've improved as well :tup:

    I've also spent a lot of today running 10-lap races in the Amuse/Opera 350Z Tuned at Fuji 700PP where I have the current best posted hotlap. I ran about three or four races with Racer_LP (D1 silver) and JvM. What I noticed was that I was able to lap in the 1'39s occasionally maybe once per race, but still race close with and beat Racer_LP over 10 laps and 2 pitstops. What I have seen very clearly though is that every race, Stijn (Racer_LP) got more and more competitive and eventually he was running hotlaps just hundredths off my 1'39.628. The difference was he was running them lap after lap and once he was in that bracket, he was never out of it again. The last race we ran he was uncatchable. 39.9, 39.8, 40.0, 39.9. That's the kind of ability, consistency and speed I'm still aspiring to. In that same race I did a single 39 coupled with a 40.9, 40.1, 41.2 etc etc all over the place and a bunch of spins thrown in for good measure.

    I wasn't too thrilled about this, who is when they get put back in their place? :lol: I ran a few more hotlaps to try and rediscover my pace, practised more races and in my last attempt managed a string like this: 1'39.6, 1'39.9, 1'39.9, 1'40.9 (oops), 1'39.8 etc. Much better, but probably won't be able to pull this off race after race like Stijn does.


    • Technique
    This is also something I feel is improving, especially in areas like trailbraking, left-foot braking, throttle control and using as little steering input as possible. It's far from where it needs to be to compete at the very top but so much better than anything I ever managed on Sixaxis.

    I've recently done 3 laps I was very very pleased with and I've uploaded the replays HERE for anyone who wishes to view how I'm actually getting on by watching my throttle, brake and steering input. They're smoother, but not yet smooth enough to get the absolute most out of a combo. The laps are Ferrari 512BB at Suzuka 550PP on S3 tyres (2'16.849 - T&L event), Ferrari F430 at Suzuka 700PP (2'00.774 - GTP Event 03 stage 2 week 3) and Amuse/Opera 350Z Tuned at Fuji 700PP (1'39.628 - GTP event 03 Stage 3 week 1).


    • Control
    So which corners do I notice the G25 has now helped me improve at significantly over the last 4 months? Which corners just would not be possible to take as fast or as controlled with a Sixaxis?

    1. Dunlop at Suzuka
    2. Turn 1 Suzuka
    3. Right-hander uphill after chicane at Fuji F
    4. Hairpin after T1 at Fuji

    The most important factor in these corners for me has been able to adjust/hold/reduce the steering angle on exit with as much throttle as the car can take using very very small and precise inputs and angles which I just was not able to apply using the D-pad or analog sticks on a Sixaxis. Also, powering out of Spoon 2 and holding the steering juuust straight enough to keep the car's rear in check is a wonderful sensation.

    Incidentally, one night just for a laugh while I couldn't be bothered to set up the G25+shoeboxes+woodplank I just used the Sixaxis to run the Lotus Evora Suzuka East time trial I mentioned. At the time I hadn't hit #4 yet, but was around #6. First thing of note, I went straight to the analog sticks, which I have NEVER been comfortable with on the GT series, and yet they felt completely natural now! Secondly, I was immediately 0.3 behind my ghost and noticeably faster on the Sixaxis than I ever remember being before. The wheel has actually increased my ability on the Sixaxis...


    I do sincerely apologise if much of this post sounds big-headed and a bragfest, but these are all 100% genuine observations and improvements that I have seen myself make. I've got nothing to gain by kidding myself or lying about my relative ability compared to the best, I had enough of that when I joined GTP thinking I was the puppy's plums on a Sixaxis :lol:

    All the best
    Maz
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  20. Hyper-Dan

    Hyper-Dan

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    Great read as always Anne. ;)

    You really are picking up pace now, well done Maz. I have no doubt you will make D1 very soon. :tup:
     
  21. Stotty

    Stotty Premium

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    Anne :lol:

    You'll be D1 soon enough if you're not careful Maz ;)
     
  22. markoc84

    markoc84

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    Hi Maz,

    Thank you very much for this thread, I have been looking into buying a steering wheel for a few months now, and just reading your sotry has convinced me that i HAVE to get a wheel, and i think i will get it next week just to be sure that i have time to practice before GT5 is actually released.
    It really has been a very pleasent read, and also all of the supporters you have and people offering advice i'm sure will be most valuable.

    I would be interested to hear if you eventually get a wheel stand and the improvements it will yield.

    I will also be looking to race you on GT5 when it is out,

    Cheers
     
  23. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    The wheel has made an enormous improvement to my driving in the last few months, and the enjoyment has been greatly amplified. I hope to post another update very soon, and the need for a solid rig has increased a lot recently, it's essential...especially as my shoeboxes have started to disintegrate :lol:

    All the best
    Maz
     
  24. Dvous731

    Dvous731

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    i just got a g25 today... i thought to get used to it i might aswell do a 50 lap race. im on lap 13.... just over took my first car on lap 13 lol 2 corners later i miss shifted, over reved and ended up in the wall =[

    its abit annoying from going from pretty good to utter rubbish, but i havnt had this much fun with the game since i first got it ^__^
     
  25. Dvous731

    Dvous731

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    anyone having clutch problems? after a few laps for some reason the clutch turns itself off and i have to push the button again..... its no biggy, just abit annoying =/
     
  26. Synwraith

    Synwraith Staff Emeritus

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    October 2009 - 6 Months

    Unbelievably, it has now been half a year that I have been driving GT5P exclusively with the G25 wheel having used the DS controller/Sixaxis on Gran Turismo since 1997.

    The main motivation behind the switch for me was to see just how much my method of control was hindering my overall speed compared to the best. How many of us have played this game offline against our mates for years believing that nobody out there could be as good as us? GT5P's online experience certainly trimmed a few egos, mine included.

    The highest I managed to rise in the GTP divisional rankings using the Sixaxis (D-pad for steering) was Division 2 Silver with a handful of Division 2 podiums at WRS, the Division 2 Bronze title in GTP Event 02 and runner up to GTP_Timeattack in the GTP Sixaxis championship. Quite a lot there to be proud of but seeing how Brock (GTP_Timeattack) qualified as Division 1 Gold (!!) with a Sixaxis (analog sticks for steering) I knew I was far from the best on a pad. I just wasn't sure how much of this was down to my method of using D-pad for steering and how much was down to a shortfall of raw talent and ability.

    Anyway, my progress since has been well documented in this thread from day to day, then weekly, then monthly. It's now been six months and since getting the wheel I earned two more promotions to Division 2 Gold and finally to Division 1 Bronze (roughly 1 month after getting to D2 gold), managed to get 2nd overall in WRS 44, 2nd in D1 in WRS 46 and 3rd in D1 and 3rd overall for WRS 48. In addition I was runner up in D2 for Event 03, losing out to another new D1 driver, GTP_PASM :)

    It was clear to me that while there were times that improvements were slow and painful, in the last couple of months I earned two promotions and seem to be improving at a visible rate to the point where I can actually score an overall podium at a track like Fuji, 0.2 seconds off GTP_Timeattack, a D1 Gold driver and a Fuji specialist. I have clearly come a very long way.

    I can 100% say that purchasing a wheel has made me a D1 driver, or at least allowed me to employ the kind of control required to put what I know into practice and achieve faster times. It's allowed me to access my full potential and I think a few more months of use might see me get better. If I can make D1 silver on merit, that will be the best I can hope for in GT5P with this physics model and my ability. Had I started back in March 2008 with a wheel maybe it would have been different but who can say.

    On a related note, I also recently started playing a popular PC Sim called GTR Evo, a very different proposition to GT5P. The force feedback and settings in that game are far beyond what Prologue offers. Tyre wear, fuel consumption, damage, a massive variety of cars and tracks etc, just such a challenge. I found I was able to compete reasonably well on tracks I knew pretty quickly. I think the rest of the T&L guys who have been playing it for months were pretty impressed with how quickly I managed to get up to speed. I'm not sure if GTR is helping or hindering my GT5P technique or not, but it does require careful braking as I lock them up if I try to brake as I do in GT5P...so in the long run it could be a massive benefit to overall smoothness and driving skill. Again, none of this would have been possible without the switch to wheel/pedal driving. This sim is in my opinion a lot closer to reality than GT5P and I feel far more connected to the vehicle and the driving experience than in GT5P, which feels rather disconnected after a good run on GTR Evo. I managed to score my first fastest lap in a race of seasoned GTR players just last night at the Montreal GP track in a Corvette C6R :)

    I still think one of the greatest advantages that the wheel has offered me after 6 months is the ability to have much greater exit speed from important corners while sloooowly reducing the steering lock on exit and getting on the gas more and more. Corners like Dunlop and Spoon at Suzuka, the hairpin, Netz and Panasonic at Fuji...these have taken on a completely new complexion for me since switching to the wheel and I lose far far less time to the fastest guys through these corners now, if at all.

    Another massive difference is the much shorter amount of time it takes me to get up to my best speed on a combo. On a few recent occasions I have posted splits before almost everyone on WRS and had them stay very near the top of the board for almost the whole week, albeit this happens mostly at Suzuka in high PP cars, which is by far my best track/PP combo.

    Finally, a lot of folks are aware of how neanderthal my rig/setup is! I have, for 6 months, had the G25 clamped to a plank of wood, which sits on two crumbling shoeboxes, which in turn sit on two chairs. I myself sit on a computer chair with wheels. Hardly the most stable, solid or even stationary platform I am sure you'll agree. It's the best I can do at the moment and to be honest I have started to get very used to it, even if sometimes the whole thing collapses into my lap and catastrophe ensues...Anyway, with GTR Evo that I play on my PC at my monitor, I have the wheel clamped to my PC desk whish is solid as a rock. Therefore there is no lateral movement in the equipment, and this is essential considering the far more vigorous force feedback on GTR Evo compared to GT5P. This could also be a reason for me being reasonably quick at GTR Evo having only played for 2 weeks on and off. So I may make just one more post in this thread in the future when I finally get a solid platform for my GT5P wheel use in the shape of a Wheelstand Pro. It will be interesting to see if that offers further laptime and driving improvement, many of the top guys have advised me that it will make a surprising difference.

    The Logitech G25 has been without a shadow of a doubt the best gaming purchase I have ever made. It has utterly transformed my driving experience and my competitiveness, taking Gran Turismo (and indeed other racing games and sims) to a completely new level. Competing with the big boys is what it's all about for me when it comes to racing games, and I would still be 1 to 2 seconds off the pace at various circuits were it not for the switch to wheel use.


    Thanks for reading, for positive comments and for continuing advice, encouragement and guidance.

    All the best
    Maz
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2009
  27. yeti

    yeti

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    Great read (as ever) - I'm currently going through the transition process myself - not getting enough time on the wheel as I would like - but mainly that's my own fault - not used a pad since I got the Wheel tho - and aim to not use it at all for GT5.

    The Wheelstand Pro is rock solid - however a tip for you is to ensure you have a flat floor to use it on... My (solid wood) floor isn't as flat as it could be - so occasionally if I stand on a pedal hard - the whole rig slides forward... this is mainly because only 3 (occasionally 2!) of the rubber feet are touching the floor thus less friction ensues!

    I have a plan to counter this though - and it will involve attaching the rig to the chair I sit on with some string/rope etc!!

    C.
     
  28. crazytortise

    crazytortise

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    Hi Maz

    Like everyone else has said thanks for this thread. It has been good reading and has helped me improve alot to just by reading what you have been saying and suggesting.

    I'll be going on 2 months very shortly with the G25 and I hope to be up there with you D1 aliens very soon :D

    CrazyT :tup:
     
  29. cpp214

    cpp214 Premium

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    Another great post Maz :cheers:

    I am glad to see that you too have taken the dive into PC sims.
    I haven't had played Prologue in a good while now, and like you I am
    really enjoying games such as rFactor and GTR Evo. I haven't raced anyone yet,
    and I haven't compared my laptimes to anyone else yet, unlike GT5P--in which it
    seemed that's all I did. Not saying that's good or bad, it definitely has an element
    of competitiveness and sport which can be very fun and provide great incentive
    for improvement.

    But the last couple of weeks I have found myself driving in rFactor
    and GTR Evo for the pure pleasure of it. As you pointed out, GTR Evo as well as rFactor
    are quite a bit more realistic than Prologue, and I find it much more gratifying to put
    in--what seems like--a good lap in either of those games than I did in Prologue.
    The PC games are just tons of fun--and pretty cheap really, if you have a decent PC setup.
    And I'm glad to hear you bolted that wheel down solid for GTR Evo! It makes a tremendous difference, doesn't it?

    Anyway, great summary as usual, and hopefully games such as Evo and rFactor will help pass the time until GT5 :)
     
  30. Mad94d

    Mad94d Premium

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    Nice Read Maz.:tup:

    I agree with what you said about GTR Evo, I don't have it, but i've got rFactor and on those PC sims you have to be so much more accurate and precise with steering input and throttle contol, I really enjoy the challenge. And when I went back to GT5:p to do a WRS a while back, I drove the Mustang and it just didn't seem the same as it used to be, it almost felt arcade like in my opinion. You can be a lot more careless on console gaming I think. Having that extra experience on PC gaming has made me faster on GT5:p surprisingly, I thought it'd mess up my skills on consoles, but it hasn't. All it has done is made me get my best lap times a lot faster, So I suppose that PC gaming for me has been a good thing.

    For me I caught onto PC sims quickly too Maz, I am already the fastest in the league after about 4 months of playing (but I was faster in the first 2 weeks):lol: Out qualifying the previous front runners by 0.5 at times.:D

    Great to see you're progress Carl and Maz, You have both come a long way. Great to see you both in Division 1 now as well! Well done guys.:tup: Very well deserved.:tup: