So do you think GT5 will fill a 25gb bluray, or dual-layered 50gb? or even less?

[Devedander]

Only one physics engine is used, it uses the physical attributes of the car to do it's thing. I doubt the physical attributes of each car will take up 5mb

I would guess physical attributes account for only a few KB as they are just stats or variables to be passed to the physics engine.

Also let's not forget a lot of cars will have recycled info which might lead to space savings (ie multiple verisons of skyline may share a lot of assets).

The whole "tracks" vs "layouts" issue comes into play when figuring out how much space tracks will take. While tracks are generally large items, remember they are often made up of lots of repeated textures and things not near where cars will go are probably going to be fairly low res textures and models...

 

[Lain]

I would guess physical attributes account for only a few KB as they are just stats or variables to be passed to the physics engine.

Also let's not forget a lot of cars will have recycled info which might lead to space savings (ie multiple verisons of skyline may share a lot of assets).

The whole "tracks" vs "layouts" issue comes into play when figuring out how much space tracks will take. While tracks are generally large items, remember they are often made up of lots of repeated textures and things not near where cars will go are probably going to be fairly low res textures and models...

Valid points. 👍

I mentioned earlier that GT5 has a lot of data, and I specifically mentioned 800+ physics parameters per car. I simply was saying that 800 parameters is a lot. Way way more than, say, an object in Uncharted 2's environment that's affected by some basic physics. I wasn't trying to suggest that 800 parameters adds any significant file size to a car in GT5. I program, I know that such parameters can be stored very compactly. If you took all the parameters for all the cars in GT5, I doubt their file size would be greater than the size of a single 3D model for one of the cars. Just clarifying in case anyone misunderstood.

 

[cobraagent90]

Why is the burden of/for your proof on me. The link is to a nice site, but nonetheless, one that is an opinion site (something they freely admit in their "About Us"). I'm only asking for a way to trace your train of thought, not attempting to insult you or your claims.



This idea was mentioned in the "Console Wars Round 5: Xbox 360 Vs. PS3 (GPU)" video, but they mentioned it in regard to textures and nothing more (I believe).

You could be completely correct, but there is no way of validating your claims.

Yes it is a nice site. It is not totally an opinion site since they offer true information. Yes it was mentioned in the round 5 AND 4. No the textures were not the only thing mentioned. Well, there is no way of estimating the size of gt5 because of the lack of data given, i am just stating my opinion. Even Sony can't estimate the size with the data WE have. WE don't even know the number of tracks.Indeed i can not fully valitidate my claims

 

[cobraagent90]

Heh, while I love technobuffalo's PS3/360 console war videos, they don't really provide you with the knowledge to determine whether Uncharted 2 or GT5P is crunching more numbers than the other.

The bottom line is that the PS3 has a finite amout of raw power. And both Naughty Dog and Polyphony Digital are going to try to get the most out of that finite power. No developer working on a major game is gonna say "Yeah, we're only going to use 2 of the Cell's SPEs because we simply don't need the others". They're going to get the game running, and if they find a way to optimize the game to use less of the CPU, they're going to put the freed power to some new use.

For an example, let's assume Uncharted 2 is a super-optimized game. It's using all of the CPU and there is very little room for any significant optimization. Now, let's assume Polyphony is hard at work on Gran Turismo 5. They're also using all the power that they can draw from the processor to push 16 cars in a race. But alas, they discover a much less processing-intensive way to do something that they do frequently, such as update the physics. A 16 car race which used to need all of the PS3's processing power now only demands half. Does Polyphony let that be that? Or do they put the newly freed processing power to another task? Of course they're going to put the freed power to use. Maybe they'll increase the number of cars per race, or perhaps they'll sprinkle more 3D spectators around the track, or a balanced combination of both.

Yes they do offer. Regarding GT5 Prologue KY would have stated before the release of the game how much of the CPU gt5p is using if it were like 90%. Like Uncharted. I don't know if Polyphony has the time to make use of the CPU. I know they are working all the time but i have no idea where this work is put in. Graphics,physics,sounds??? I don't expect them to tell me every hour what they do since i am not KY but i would like some more info regarding the game. We have been sleeping in the dark for quiet some time now. But thats irrelevant

 

[cobraagent90]

One thing is certain, PD will deliver

 

[Horde_R35]

I think they will use a 50gb,GT5p is around 6.5gb with a few vids.if they need more then Sony can put it on a three or four layered disk.

http://hothardware.com/News/NextGen-Disc-Formats-Continues-100GB-BluRay-D/

A few years back pioneer had a 400gb disk in production.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/02/pioneer-shows-off-16-layer-400gb-blu-ray-disc-affirms-compatibi/

And it works on any bluray player.

OMG a 400GB disc! Thats new to me! Didnt thought it was possible!

 

[cobraagent90]

OMG a 400GB disc! Thats new to me! Didnt thought it was possible!

It is possible to do more than 400GB. But the disc would have too many layers

 

[Stonemonkey]

.....
I don't know if Polyphony has the time to make use of the CPU. I know they are working all the time but i have no idea where this work is put in.
......

Yeah, they spent 5 years modelling cars and tracks and no one thought to go and write some code. :/

PD will probably know more about the PS3 hardware than any other developer.

 

[Lain]

I don't know if Polyphony has the time to make use of the CPU.

If I had a PS3 dev kit, I could max out the CPU recursively calculating the Fibonacci sequence.

 

[Stonemonkey]

If I had a PS3 dev kit, I could max out the CPU recursively calculating the Fibonacci sequence.

I'm not sure if you could, sharing or splitting that across the SPEs could be a big problem and depending on how you define 'max out' it probably wouldn't use much of the resources available to a single element (SIMD/dual pipes) but it could clog it up.

 

[cobraagent90]

Yeah, they spent 5 years modelling cars and tracks and no one thought to go and write some code. :/

PD will probably know more about the PS3 hardware than any other developer.

How do you know PD is better than any other developer?

 

[Dravonic]

How do you know PD is better than any other developer?

I played GT 1,2,3,4,5P. That pretty much settles it.

 

[Stonemonkey]

How do you know PD is better than any other developer?

I never said better. But considering PD have been working on the project for 5+ years in close collaboration with Sony I would say they'll know a heck of a lot about the hardware. I would be more than surprised if they didn't have a team of dedicated programmers/engineers who's job has been to get to know the machine inside out, probably since before the PS3 was released.

 

[.star.]

however big it will be i THINK we will probably have a 5-6 gig mandatory install. thats gonna be hell waiting for that install cause you know you can play the full game finally. it shouldnt take that long of course but itll feel like an eternity when we pop that disc in and wait in anticipation

 

[Lain]

How do you know PD is better than any other developer?

Look at GT4. Look at the next-best looking non-Polyphony racing game on the PS3. Look at a non-Polyphony racing game on the PS2 with the most content, and compare how much content is in that game compared to GT4. Look at the quality of the content compared to the quality of GT4's content.

Settled.

I'm not sure if you could, sharing or splitting that across the SPEs could be a big problem and depending on how you define 'max out' it probably wouldn't use much of the resources available to a single element (SIMD/dual pipes) but it could clog it up.

You're right.

 

[Seismica]

You are wrong Prologue is about 2GB with no movies(Download version). Second install? No way, it may not even need a single install . PSN game download??? Not even 1% of psn game downloads are ps3 full games. Its only prologue,r&c quest for booty,warhawk and burnout paradise. And a download for MGS4???? Are you kidding me man?You seriously have no idea what you are talking about at all

So i was wrong about prologue, but i was going off what i had read previously in this thread. My prologue is a hard copy not a download.

Secondly, i was asking if there was a download for MGS4. Because i would have been very surprised if there was. A lot of people on this forum are under the impression there be a downloadable version of GT5, which is why i was asking that. 30-50GB is not impossible to download/install.

I have no idea what i am talking about? No you just assumed i didn't after i didn't double check the downloadable filesize of prologue (Which was an honest mistake). I do know what i'm talking about. Lets say 15-20MB per car, thats a minimum of 14.25GB for 950 cars, and i'd say it could be anything up to 20GB.

But if Forza is anything to go by, extra data is needed to account for the changes in the car's appearence after crashes. With fully modelled cockpits and possible structural damage to race cars, we could be talking up to 25-30MB for some cars. Significantly less for road cars, which will probably just change the textures of damaged areas of the car, and textures are pretty small in size compared to models. So in the end we could be seeing 20-25GB on cars alone depending on the extent PD have gone to with the vehicle damage that we havn't properly seen yet.

 

[Devedander]

But if Forza is anything to go by, extra data is needed to account for the changes in the car's appearence after crashes. With fully modelled cockpits and possible structural damage to race cars, we could be talking up to 25-30MB for some cars. Significantly less for road cars, which will probably just change the textures of damaged areas of the car, and textures are pretty small in size compared to models. So in the end we could be seeing 20-25GB on cars alone depending on the extent PD have gone to with the vehicle damage that we havn't properly seen yet.

Generally it's quite the opposite...

 

[Lain]

Generally it's quite the opposite...

Uh, well... I exported a rougly 400,000 poly cube in Blender as a 3DS model, and it was a little over 10 MB.

 

[Devedander]

Uh, well... I exported a rougly 400,000 poly cube in Blender as a 3DS model, and it was a little over 10 MB.

My statement was poorly made, the textures don't tend to dwarf the models, but tend to be similar if not larger. It of course depends on what exactly you texture the model with of course, but generally I have found in games the textures are usually not much smaller than the models...

 

[Seismica]

Generally it's quite the opposite...

Generally yes. With GT5 cars with 200k+ models... i have my doubts (The textures would be the same for large areas of the car, rather than just one big texture across the whole car. I suppose the graphics engine somehow shades/lights these - I don't know that much about graphics engines, but i know a little about modelling). But with a real time damage engine i would imagine that there would only be a few textures and they be mapped to whatever part of the car gets damage. But as for visual/structural damage (not just scraped paint) which we 'might' be getting for racing cars, even though the model size will be the same in game after damage, the model still needs to be altered, so i would have thought there needs to be pre-made models for each part of each car otherwise the damage won't be accurate. It might only equate to 1MB or so per car, and that added to textures, all adds up.

Prologue had no damage, we can't use the filesize of the cars in prologue or even the Time trial demo as an accurate indication of the final car size in game.

 

[Stonemonkey]

Generally it's quite the opposite...

It depends........

If the body is all one solid colour then no texture is required for that, only material properties, same for chrome etc. Textures would be required for decals

If fine detail such as front grills, lights etc. is formed from geometry then more geometry/less texture, and vice versa.

repeating/tiled textures/normal maps are usually small, non-repeating can be big

 

[Seismica]

It depends........

If the body is all one solid colour then no texture is required for that, only material properties, same for chrome etc. Textures would be required for decals

If fine detail such as front grills, lights etc. is formed from geometry then more geometry/less texture, and vice versa.

repeating/tiled textures/normal maps are usually small, non-repeating can be big

Thats the phrase i was looking for, most of the textures will be repeated across the car. The same goes for damage textures, they only need be applied numerous times to certain parts of the car. But with a 'real time' damage engine, if its any good, means parts of the car have to be re-modelled to simulate the appearence of damage to the car.

Basically, its a big job for PD either way.

 

[Stonemonkey]

Uh, well... I exported a rougly 400,000 poly cube in Blender as a 3DS model, and it was a little over 10 MB.

What vertex properties?

I would think somewhere in 10-20mb per car would be a reasonable assumtion.

 

[Stonemonkey]

Thats the phrase i was looking for, most of the textures will be repeated across the car. The same goes for damage textures, they only need be applied numerous times to certain parts of the car. But with a 'real time' damage engine, if its any good, means parts of the car have to be re-modelled to simulate the appearence of damage to the car.

Basically, its a big job for PD either way.

I don't know how they'll deal with deformation in damage but I don't think it'll be pre-deformed meshes. I would have thought the deformation will be calculated at impact and that there would be stiffness and limits set on the parts that could deform, dependong on how that's done it might require extra data or not.

Oops, you edited.

 

[cobraagent90]

I have no idea what i am talking about? No you just assumed i didn't after i didn't double check the downloadable filesize of prologue (Which was an honest mistake). I do know what i'm talking about. Lets say 15-20MB per car, thats a minimum of 14.25GB for 950 cars, and i'd say it could be anything up to 20GB.

Sorry for the aggresive comment. But stating that there is an mgs4 download and that gt5 will require a second install i got mad

 

[Lain]

What vertex properties?

I would think somewhere in 10-20mb per car would be a reasonable assumtion.

Using quads, there's basically as many vertices as faces. And using triangles, there's half. I just subdivided a cube, and naturally the amount of vertices per 400,000-poly car model is a little more complicated, but I'd guess the amount of vertices will be somewhat close to the amount of faces.

 

[Seismica]

Sorry for the aggresive comment. But stating that there is an mgs4 download and that gt5 will require a second install i got mad

Ok just a bit of a mis-understanding then. I go back on what i said, the likelihood is we won't see a second install. But i do think it will be a dual layer disc and could be quite close to 50GB depending on what PD have in store for us. Though after the cars, tracks and movies, the rest of the game is mostly code and low graphic icons etc.

 

[Stonemonkey]

Using quads, there's basically as many vertices as faces. And using triangles, there's half. I just subdivided a cube, and naturally the amount of vertices per 400,000-poly car model is a little more complicated, but I'd guess the amount of vertices will be somewhat close to the amount of faces.

Sorry, I was meaning per vertex properties such as:

3d coords (12 bytes per vertex)
u/v coords (8 bytes per vertex *multitexture)
3d normal (12 bytes per vertex)
colour (3 bytes@24bit or 12 bytes@fp per vertex)

(assuming fp values are 32 bit)

I'd imagine the majority of vertices will be shared and it'll mostly be triangles rather than quads.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

It might be the second game to fit into the dual-layer bluray disc. Eh... why not? A dual-layered bluray racing game is good enough for me.

 

[patriotzero]

one thing GT TT demo has no 400k modelled cars.abit better than gthd thats all.. we saw GC TGS demos car models.there s huge difference TT demo s cars..Sounds and 65 tracks s hd videos will fill the disc a lot..Car polygons too low compare with sounds and videos.