So why aren't the tires fixed?

[Famine]

Tell him I said hi.

Why?

In your opinion. I found it pointless and excessive except to try to win an argument.

Everyone else is discussing. You're arguing. Just look again at your entry to this thread...

PD didn't care about the Ethos of the series when they implemented this programming for driver/tire wear did they?

I don't quite think you understand what was meant there.

GT has always been about reality. The first one was about real cars and real parts. The second one introduced the real tracks (Laguna). Each has since been a step more towards reality - GT5 is the first in the series to have more track locations that are real circuits or real streets than imaginary ones.

What's missing from the picture now is reality in tuning parts - EBC brake components, Tein suspension parts, Borg-Warner gearbox upgrades, GReddy turbos, Edelbrock superchargers and... Bridgestone tyres*. We've had genero-bits since GT1, albeit dressed up as Ralliart, Mazdaspeed or Nismo, including genero-tyres. The series needs the reference to reality that this brings.

Then, when we're running the 24 Heures du Mans in a 2012 Audi R18 Hybrid on our Michelins and not getting the same mileage from the tyres we can bitch and whine about the comparison. While we're on magical multiapplication, multifit generorubber with no grounding in the real world, we have no reference to make the comparison - no matter how much the wear rates are altered to suit one specific event and no others.

I don't see them implementing anything but an overly simplistic fix across the board hence my suggestions.

I don't see them implementing any fix because, as repeatedly pointed out, what you believe to be the problem is not the problem. The tyres wear exactly as they ought - though they didn't originally.

At least it would be better than what we have now and its so simple that even a cave Kaz can do it. Sorry that was bad attempt at humor. Ahem..Moving on.

In what universe is "fixing" the tyre wear rate in one race (two, including the B-Spec version) to be equivalent to reality but destroying it for all other races "better"?

Again. This is PD. It seems they didnt put too much thought into some aspect of the game in the first place. But you have Nascar drivers that have done F1, Le Mans etc and vice versa so a driver from one series can adapt to what another series driver can do? Simply making the Bobs last for at least an hour before full depletion would be closer to reality than what we have now.

Why? Most touring car series with races longer than one hour have a mandatory driver change in them - check the GTP News page for GT Academy winner Jann Mardenborough driving half of his two one-hour races with his teammate Alex Buncombe at the 'Ring last weekend.

Even amature racer drive at a good level for longer than a lvl 40 Bob will last.

Is an amateur racer equivalent to a Level 40 Bob? No - we have no real world reference for what a Level 40 Bob is. Also, forty minutes in a kart is hard work. An hour in an LMP or F1 car from an amateur racer? Not a chance.

Also tire wear doesnt have to be excessively good. Just better than what we have now to be a little closer to overall reality.

You're not listening. The GT5 tyres are generic grades. In some instances they wear faster than real life tyres in real life series, In some instances they wear slower than real life tyres in real life series. Moving the generic tyres' wear "closer to overall reality" for one series will move it further away for another. You cannot do it with generic tyres.

Again what series runs soft tires that are done in 1 lap?

What series runs GT5 Racing Soft tyres? Oh wait, none, because they are not real tyres. You cannot draw a comparison with any real tyres because there is no reference to reality.

A GT5 Racing tyre is a 305/80R15 high friction F1 slick, a 285/40R18 LMP slick, a 225/55R16 tarmac rally slick, a 245/45R17 touring car slick and, apparently, a 135/60R12 some fool put onto a Nissan Cube. These real tyres all behave differently. They all grip differently. They all wear differently. But in GT5 they are one tyre. You cannot possibly sit there and think making it wear exactly like a 2011 LMP tyre would when it's fitted to a 1999 LMGT1, a 2007 F1, a 1995 WRC, a 1994 DTM or a 1954 Citroen 2CV will in any way make anything better, except for a 2011 LMP car.

If the tires wear is increased across the board to a better variable that takes into account the different series in the game it would not break the series. No one wants soft tires to last 30 laps. But it should last more than half to 1 lap dont you think?

It should last exactly as long as it does because... it's not a real tyre. It's a GT5 Racing Soft which has no relevance to any tyre ever made in the real world.

Increasing tyre wear across the board might make series where tyre wear is too low better, but it ruins series where tyre wear is already too high. Decreasing tyre wear across the board might make series where tyre wear is too high better, but it ruins series where tyre wear is already too low. You cannot "fix" GT5's tyre wear by changing how the three generic tyres wear because that isn't what the problem is.


The problem is that there's three generic tyres to suit all fitments and all applications.

*Other brands are also available

 

[McClarenDesign]

Wait... you mean I'm not really a level 40 driver, even though I've earned it via a simulator?

Does my insurance know?

 

[Famine]

Wait... you mean I'm not really a level 40 driver, even though I've earned it via a simulator?

Does my insurance know?

When they asked me if anyone else drove the car, I told them my four Bobs - but it's okay as they're all Level 40.

Went for a multicar discount on the basis of owning 1,220 cars too.


Big bill that month.

 

[JLawrence]

In your opinion. I found it pointless and excessive except to try to win an argument.

C'mon man. Lay down the ego and at least act civil. We are problem solving here, not arguing. It's pretty well known that PD does look at this site to see what the masses are saying, so you never know if one of the techs will see what we're discussing here and run with it.

Anyways, Famine. What is your suggestion? I may have missed it, but I don't want to go back and reread everything

 

[Famine]

C'mon man. Lay down the ego and at least act civil. We are problem solving here, not arguing. It's pretty well known that PD does look at this site to see what the masses are saying, so you never know if one of the techs will see what we're discussing here and run with it.

Anyways, Famine. What is your suggestion? I may have missed it, but I don't want to go back and reread everything

Real tyres.

Ditch the generorubber and bring in real tyre manufacturers, on licence the same way they do for cars and tracks. They are, after all, the single most important component on a car and it seems bizarre to have a real car connected to a real track only through faked black circles...

Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, Toyo, Kumho, Nexen (for a bit of snow fun), Hankook, Goodyear, Avon... everyone. They know more about computer modelling of friction than anyone. Slot in their data - grip coefficient, wear rate, sidewall flexion under pressure, corner weightings at pressure - and we have real world comparisons.

Try running a 2004 F1-inspired open seater on F1-spec Bridgestones and you'll lose them after 75 miles, while the 2005 LMP can run 600 on his LMP-spec Michelins - rather than have them both canvas their "Racing Hards" in a hundred. Modify your tracked road car with 225/45R16 Toyo R888s or Yoko A046s, rather than the same "Racing Soft" rubber Kimi's using alongside you.

Hell, even Hoosier. At least with Hoosier rubber we might finally be able to pop a wheelstand on green You might even get fifteen miles on them...


Edit: Of course we'd then need tyre setups too. Individual corner pressures... And frankly I'd want punctures.

 

[Jav]

That's a great idea but I highly doubt PD will go into creating a new tire model for every single car in the game, not accurately anyways. It took iRacing arround 4 years to create their new tire model and we have more than 1000 less cars on iRacing than what GT5 has. A fix to this would definitely be increase the longetivity of the tire and introduce differerent degradation for each tire range.
-RH - 5 times the life with no degradation trough the entire wear cycle.
-RM - 3 times the life with half the current degradation trough the entire wear cycle.
-RS - 2 times the life with the current degradation trough the entire wear cycle.

That way you will introduce real pit strategy into the mix with somewhat reasonable characteristics.

 

[TankAss95]

Real tyres.

Ditch the generorubber and bring in real tyre manufacturers, on licence the same way they do for cars and tracks. They are, after all, the single most important component on a car and it seems bizarre to have a real car connected to a real track only through faked black circles...

Seems awesome, but lots of work for PD.

What is the minimum amount of variety that would be functional? How much would the mean, typical tyre be used in comparison to the amount of cars there are?

There are lots of different types of cars in Gran Turismo.

 

[JLawrence]

Why not give the option of what distance? Like Sprint, Race, Enduro?

 

[Famine]

That's a great idea but I highly doubt PD will go into creating a new tire model for every single car in the game, not accurately anyways.

Wouldn't need to. In fact you'd only need two tyre categories for paved surfaces - street and track. The manufacturers supply all the details - as far as PD want to push it - and changing tyres would simply be a matter of deciding what grip and tyre life levels you want and whether the fitment is appropriate: you can't fit F1 Pirelli rubber to anything but an F1 car (or the Xjobby), you can't fit Bridgestone Ecopia low resistance tyres (from the Prius) to a GT300 car. Apply the present wear rate algorithms - weight, slip, wheel torque, speed, surface friction - and you've got instant variety and quasi-realism.

A fix to this would definitely be increase the longetivity of the tire and introduce differerent degradation for each tire range.
-RH - 5 times the life with no degradation trough the entire wear cycle.
-RM - 3 times the life with half the current degradation trough the entire wear cycle.
-RS - 2 times the life with the current degradation trough the entire wear cycle.

That way you will introduce real pit strategy into the mix with somewhat reasonable characteristics.

Why not give the option of what distance? Like Sprint, Race, Enduro?

The problem with these is that the former still expects the same rubber to be applied to every car in the game - you'd screw with cars that already have a wear rate that's too high for the compounds - and that neither allows for the fact that GT5 has a huge range of cars that can race together in the same race.

It's fine to say that the 2011 Audi quin-stinted its Michelin tyres for 80 lap (650 mile!) sets, but what did the 2011 Greaves Zytek do with its Dunlops? Different class, different rubber, same race - why expect Generotyre RH5/Enduro to run a similar distance on both cars? What about the 2011 Corvette Racing (GTEP) and 2011 Larbre (GTEA) Corvettes - how did they treat their Michelins? Again, different class, different rubber, same race, but we expect Generotyre RH5/Enduro to be fitted to all four and run similar distances.

Of course it's somewhat moot in GT5 because the Corvettes would run their 100 fuelin tank dry long before the tyres went and you cannot opt to keep your tyres

Seems awesome, but lots of work for PD.

What is the minimum amount of variety that would be functional? How much would the mean, typical tyre be used in comparison to the amount of cars there are?

There are lots of different types of cars in Gran Turismo.

I'd say the minimum amount of manufacturers would be three (but I'd want way more) and the minimum number of grades would be... ooooh... thirteen. There'd need to be an easy, quantified grip and wear rating for each:

Road Economy (Grip 1/2, Wear 10): Bridgestone Ecopia, Michelin Energy/X
Road Touring (Grip 2/3, Wear 9/10): Bridgestone A001, Pirelli Cinturato P6
Road Performance (Grip 3/4, Wear 8/9): Bridgestone Potenza RE970, Michelin Pilot Exalto, Pirelli P Zero
Track Sports (Grip 4/5, Wear 7/8): Bridgestone Potenza S04, Michelin Pilot Sport 3, Pirelli P Zero Nero
Track Semi (Grip 5/6, Wear 6/7): Bridgestone Potenza RE11, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Pirelli P Zero Corsa
ST Race Hard (Grip 6.5, Wear 8): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
ST Race Soft (Grip 7, Wear 7): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
GT Race Hard (Grip 7.5, Wear 7): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
GT Race Soft (Grip 8, Wear 6): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
LM Race Hard (Grip 8.5, Wear 6): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
LM Race Soft (Grip 9, Wear 5): Bridgestone Potenza, Michelin Pilot, Pirelli P Zero branded slicks
F1 Hard (Grip 9.5, Wear 3): Bridgestone F1, Michelin F1, Pirelli F1
F1 Soft (Grip 10, Wear 1): Bridgestone F1, Michelin F1, Pirelli F1

Plus knobbly rally tyres and inter/rain* compounds.

Limit road cars to no better than Track Semi, race modified cars to no better than GT, purpose rally cars to knobbly rally or track sport/semi, purpose touring cars to ST or GT, Le Mans cars to LM and F1 cars to F1. There'll be some special cases (Escudo Pike's Peak trying to run a race track on street-legal track cars? I don't think so) and nuances that already fail to exist won't be brought in (you'll be running everything on modern radial rubber - the XJ13, Ford Mk4 and P330 racers should be on 60s crossply), but now you have a relatively easy system for allowing LMP cars to run 400 miles on grippy rubber and not be matched by a GT Viper, an F1 car or a guy who's turned up with a TVR Speed 12, mysteriously running exactly the same tyre grade as the works Audi R18...

It'd be nice to have more manufacturers. It'd be nice to be able to change your tyre size and cross section. But the above is all you need to make every series in GT with tyre wear work closer to the real thing - and you won't get a Chaparral 2J '70 turning up at Le Mans on sports softs because it's raining...


* No bones about it, these would be sods to work out right. Better wet grip and wear rates than slicks, worse dry grip and wear rates than slicks and changing as the conditions change. However, PD already have a clear surface friction coefficient indicator and it'd be a matter of integrating this into tyre behaviour algorithms.

 

[amar212]

Limit road cars to no better than Track Semi..

Riots. Massive riots and whatnot.

BTW I agree 100% with your observation, well done.

 

[Spagetti69]

Need to be added to PP levels.

 

[TankAss95]

Need to be added to PP levels.

I, contrary to common opinion, disagree. I can easily see situations where people could overly take advantage of using lower grip tyres. Also, I think that the tyre wear (however unrealistic it may (or may not) be) is fairly balanced between the different grades of tyres.

Having tyre wear on in a 4/5 lap race with a >550pp car seems to nullify the domination of RS tires.

 

[amar212]

Yep, tyres should be left out of the PP calculation.

 

[TankAss95]

Yep, tyres should be left out of the PP calculation.

Yep. It did work in Prologue though simply because there was no tire wear nor any racing tracks you could overly take advantage of the system from. Of course, many people would support the idea of tyres contributing to the PP calculation to be an optional addition, but I disagree also. Keep it simple. 👍

 

[Scaff]

I'd say the minimum amount of manufacturers would be three (but I'd want way more) and the minimum number of grades would be... ooooh... thirteen. There'd need to be an easy, quantified grip and wear rating for each:

Its interesting when talking about how much work would be involved in this to look at what "The Other Sim" has said in regard to the challenges they have faced with regard to tyre data, in particular with regard to working with multiple manufacturers.

The two main one being that manufacturers testing methodologies differ making mapping values incredibly difficult and they admitted that in the part they had to 'blend' the data to get it to work (which actually explains a lot). Short of either going to a single manufacturer (which is what they did) or asking all manufacturers to use a prescribed testing method (which would be logistically a nightmare).

The second issue was that a lot of the data required was not as standard tested by the manufacturer beyond the basics required for safety, particularly in regard to drifting and high speed and high load on road tyres. Again leading to a situation that getting a single tyre manufacturer to carry out and provide data on these additional needs would be a challenge, getting multiple one to do it a bigger headache.

That does lead to the issue of having one manufacturer but accurate and comprehensive data resulting in some cars having different data that they should in comparison to OEM tyres. Something that anyone who has switched from OEM to another brand will know can make a huge difference to a cars grip and behaviour.

Its just another interesting twist to the discussion, would people be happy with accurate data from a single manufacturer be OK with the compromise it can bring when that manufacturer is not an OEM provider for that car?

 

[amar212]

Keep it simple. 👍

It is not really matter of keeping it simple IMO, but matter of Keeping it Fair™.

If tyres can affect PP, than you can make more *twists* in order to fit your car into the desired PP. As you said, we had such situation in Prologue, where people would mess with crazy cars having CS in front and RH in back on RWD cars, messing the complete grid and affecting the balance of racing for all.

PP are PP, tyres are tyres. Where GT5 have a *problem* is actual non-forcing a tyre-compound in dedicated races (on Seasonals for instance - with exceptions of recent FF Expert races and such) and where PP is the only determined value.

By separating PP and compounds, players can make a more competitive environment because you can impose restrictions on both types of factors independently. And that is the only reason I agree with PD in separating the two.

Also, I am really hoping how Engine Limiter functionality will get a proper "detuning" because current state of affairs is really stupid. With ability to decrease the engines for 50% it leads to pretty sad solutions of tackling the many online Public Lobby races as well as Seasonal TT races. Personally, I have nothing against Limiter as Limiter, but it needs to be detuned to maximum of 10% efficiency (to compensate for the Oil Change process). Everything above 10% is ridiculous and it represents a gamebreaker - especially because it allows for keeping the Torque constant with known results.

In my book, tyres are currently more than okay (especially after the 2.06 update, with new durability of the compounds and longer period of heating) while Engine Limiter is something that needs to be fixed ASAP. But that is another subject.

 

[Famine]

Its interesting when talking about how much work would be involved in this to look at what "The Other Sim" has said in regard to the challenges they have faced with regard to tyre data, in particular with regard to working with multiple manufacturers.

The two main one being that manufacturers testing methodologies differ making mapping values incredibly difficult and they admitted that in the part they had to 'blend' the data to get it to work (which actually explains a lot). Short of either going to a single manufacturer (which is what they did) or asking all manufacturers to use a prescribed testing method (which would be logistically a nightmare).

The second issue was that a lot of the data required was not as standard tested by the manufacturer beyond the basics required for safety, particularly in regard to drifting and high speed and high load on road tyres. Again leading to a situation that getting a single tyre manufacturer to carry out and provide data on these additional needs would be a challenge, getting multiple one to do it a bigger headache.

That does lead to the issue of having one manufacturer but accurate and comprehensive data resulting in some cars having different data that they should in comparison to OEM tyres. Something that anyone who has switched from OEM to another brand will know can make a huge difference to a cars grip and behaviour.

Its just another interesting twist to the discussion, would people be happy with accurate data from a single manufacturer be OK with the compromise it can bring when that manufacturer is not an OEM provider for that car?

It's - oddly - an advantage to GT in that respect. They clearly don't simulate as many variables and it could be just a case of grabbing a full wheel assembly off a test car and evaluating what variables they do simulate for that tyre. Friction coefficient is a very easy one and sidewall deflection under given loadings and pressures too - enough to build a very simple model.

The big problem here is the competitiveness - tyre manufacturers spend millions in motorsport and millions more in advertising. The last thing they'd want is to provide licensed tyres to a game and be beaten by a competitor even if they would be!

Luckily, games can avoid this entirely. Simply make all brands at a given "grade" perform equally. Bit of a reality fudge, but I'm sure people will be happier with a realish-tyre going real-ish distances than by a construct generoband wearing however it does. Plus, so long as the data regarding the precise performance remains hidden, people will swear blind that their preferred brand goes better even when it doesn't


Which would admittedly be hell on here, as the GTP Track Slick Society degenerates into an Avon vs. Toyo pitched battle for supremacy...

 

[MustangManiac]

Sounds to me like you are looking for a very realistic racing simulation, problem is, GT5 just isn't one. It is a great game however and if you want a hardcore sim they do exist, primarily on the PC. If PD were going to go for sim I think realistic damage should be a priority, that would cut out all the cheating the tracks that goes on. If you were to cheat corners and start ripping off body parts ending on the back of a wrecker nobody would be able to do it anymore.

 

[Famine]

Sounds to me like you are looking for a very realistic racing simulation

Nope.

problem is, GT5 just isn't one.

Yep. It doesn't mean that GT6 can't be more realistic - or at least more faithful to reality while remaining fun. Hence my suggestion which enhances both.

 

[TankAss95]

It is not really matter of keeping it simple IMO, but matter of Keeping it Fair™.

If tyres can affect PP, than you can make more *twists* in order to fit your car into the desired PP. As you said, we had such situation in Prologue, where people would mess with crazy cars having CS in front and RH in back on RWD cars, messing the complete grid and affecting the balance of racing for all.

PP are PP, tyres are tyres. Where GT5 have a *problem* is actual non-forcing a tyre-compound in dedicated races (on Seasonals for instance - with exceptions of recent FF Expert races and such) and where PP is the only determined value.

By separating PP and compounds, players can make a more competitive environment because you can impose restrictions on both types of factors independently. And that is the only reason I agree with PD in separating the two.

Also, I am really hoping how Engine Limiter functionality will get a proper "detuning" because current state of affairs is really stupid. With ability to decrease the engines for 50% it leads to pretty sad solutions of tackling the many online Public Lobby races as well as Seasonal TT races. Personally, I have nothing against Limiter as Limiter, but it needs to be detuned to maximum of 10% efficiency (to compensate for the Oil Change process). Everything above 10% is ridiculous and it represents a gamebreaker - especially because it allows for keeping the Torque constant with known results.

In my book, tyres are currently more than okay (especially after the 2.06 update, with new durability of the compounds and longer period of heating) while Engine Limiter is something that needs to be fixed ASAP. But that is another subject.

Hmm, I can't remember that trick in Prologue.

Anyways, in my experience simplicity is often parallel with fairness. Simplicity doesn't have to mean infantile or unrealistic (not that you are saying that of course) but instead can mean focused and potentially demanding gameplay that is attainable for all players (novice to hardcore alike). I'd personally rather have a very basic although focused Gran Turismo (In terms of tuning, types of cars, layout, etc) than a Gran Turismo that's polished in some areas but sloppy in others. Gran Turismo needs to become what it was before - easy to pick up, hard to master. In my opinion Gran Turismo is lacking the easiness that we saw in previous editions, and by that I mean accessible in all types of gameplay. This is probably controversial, but is just my opinion.

As for the Engine Limiter, I agree. If it's use was limited back a few, or perhaps more, notches, then street cars with less downforce would be able to compete in the higher PP ranges. Now that would be exiting.

The big problem here is the competitiveness - tyre manufacturers spend millions in motorsport and millions more in advertising. The last thing they'd want is to provide licensed tyres to a game and be beaten by a competitor even if they would be!

Luckily, games can avoid this entirely. Simply make all brands at a given "grade" perform equally. Bit of a reality fudge, but I'm sure people will be happier with a realish-tyre going real-ish distances than by a construct generoband wearing however it does. Plus, so long as the data regarding the precise performance remains hidden, people will swear blind that their preferred brand goes better even when it doesn't

Which would admittedly be hell on here, as the GTP Track Slick Society degenerates into an Avon vs. Toyo pitched battle for supremacy...

It's odd, because I remember Pirelli being dominant in Forza 2.

And I'm perhaps I'm being captain obvious here, but why not have different tires from different companies have different strengths and weaknesses? I don't know much about tires and how they work in real life under different conditions, but I'm sure a top class tire very rarely dominates in every aspect.

Emphasise strengths and weaknesses. Let's say LM Soft tire 1 is very grippy in a "sweet spot" and not as durable, and LM Soft Tire 2 is gripper outside that "sweet spot" and a little more durable.

Would that work? They don't even have to vary much between selection, and I'm sure they don't have to be too unrealistic to the real life counterpart.

 

[MustangManiac]

Cheers to that, I do have high hopes for GT6 👍 lets hope we are not dis-apppointed. I just don't think at this point there will be much if any major changes to the current version, though I would be very happy to be proven wrong on that point

 

[Snakebitten]

C'mon man. Lay down the ego and at least act civil. We are problem solving here, not arguing. It's pretty well known that PD does look at this site to see what the masses are saying, so you never know if one of the techs will see what we're discussing here and run with it.

Anyways, Famine. What is your suggestion? I may have missed it, but I don't want to go back and reread everything

LOL...Awright awright...Im done...I wont reply to Famines rebuttal.....

On topic.....Since you guys really believe PD is seriously listening here goes. I like the idea of a slider for tire wear someone mentioned earlier. How about some way to set that slider, either hardwired or player selectable, to each series. In other words for Le Mans, DTM, FGT etc it moves the tire wear slider, either hardwired or player selected, to allow for typical simulated laps per kind of tire as close to what an LMP, DTM, Formula 2 car would run in real life.

i dont remember if someone else had this exact idea in this thread but its what Im thinking of based on someone mentioning a slider. As I mentioned before I just dont see PD being very technical in approaching this in the future. I doubt you will have Pirelli, Goodyear etc with different wear ratings etc etc in the name of realism. Maybe they will surprise us but I highly doubt it.

 

[JLawrence]

Geeze you guys have gone ham on this since I last looked yesterday...
Anyways, let me expand just a bit on my previous suggestion of player optional longevity. I put this idea forward under the assumption that most (though I am not one of them) players of this game are perfectly content with the provided compounds and their respective grip levels. Now, obviously with this I am not trying to find a "fix" to the inaccuracies of the current tire situation in regards to all cars having the exact same choices, rather I am focusing on the single variable of their endurance.

My thoughts are as follows:
For simplicities sake lets assign the wear rate a number from 1(fastest) to 10(slowest) and look at the compounds merely as soft, medium, and hard
Sprint (1-10 laps) - S/1, M/3, H/6
Race (11-30 laps) - S/3, M/5, H/8
Endurance (31-+ laps) - S/5, M7, H/10

This being a user based system though would still be on the honor code, unless lap restrictions (such as I mentioned) were implemented.

Now, Famine. Why must the tires be literal name brands? I know there are many games in which they use things that are name brand, yet label them something else while still retaining their given properties. Heck, Wal-Mart does that with half of their products. Being that GT5 is are using generic tires, what would the harm be in implementing an idea such as yours, but taking advantage of the legal loop hole that is renaming?

 

[Exorcet]

Yep, tyres should be left out of the PP calculation.

I only agree with this when it comes to GT tires as they are now. Realistic tires should count for PP.

The GT5P tire mixing issue could cause some problems (but then again, with better physics mixing tire extremes would probably be harder to do), but an easy fix would just be giving hosts more options. I'm still surprised that to this day, GT5 does not allow minimum tires, hp, PP, or weight. Things like those could give hosts a lot more power to really create the kind of race they want, as well make it easier to crush unwanted "loopholes".

 

[ANTthePANT79]

it's not a real tyre

Famine, I've always respected your opinions, and i still do, even on this subject... But, why call GT5 "The Real Driving Simulator" and have tires with the durability of chewing gum?

In 2011 the Audi R18 did 11 laps per tank of fuel. They did 4 fuel stops per tire/driver change. That means they ran 44 laps per set. They did all of this while lapping 3'26 to 3'33 with traffic. That's about 3 hours out of a racing slick.

In GT5 the car that's closest to current specs is the pug908 and even a good driver will struggle to consistently match those lap times with racing hards, and they don't even last ONE fuel tank.

Quick fix: Double the endurance on mediums and 5x the endurance on hards. Leave softs and grip levels the same.

This guy said it! That's real tire wear, that's how it's supposed to happen... You should get many laps out of the tires, not outlap, 2 hot laps, in lap... that's like qualifying tires, not racing tires... That's not a "real" driving simulator, is it?

The fact of the matter is: Most of the people complaining about extreme tyre wear can double the lifetime of their tyres by improving their setup and driving style.

Show me... Get in a 787B, Toyota GT One, 908, 905, whatever on racing softs and do 8 competitive laps against the AI and then post the video of your tires blowing after 5 laps... Please, I'd love to see your skills in making tires last double...

 

[Ven0m]

Would it be crazy to implement each series' individual tire as the default for the car? Maybe make it where you have the option in a lobby not to upgrade from that default. Just a thought. Sure seems like it would be easier to fix the some "one series' universal application to other series'" and more realistic than the current setup. I can already hear the rage posts being typed. *braces*

 

[Famine]

Famine, I've always respected your opinions, and i still do, even on this subject... But, why call GT5 "The Real Driving Simulator" and have tires with the durability of chewing gum?

Because marketing.

Incidentally, if you drive a modern LMP at modern LMP speeds (not 5% faster, as we can do) on RH tyres you can equal single tyre stints from the real event.

Would it be crazy to implement each series' individual tire as the default for the car? Maybe make it where you have the option in a lobby not to upgrade from that default. Just a thought. Sure seems like it would be easier to fix the some "one series' universal application to other series'" and more realistic than the current setup. I can already hear the rage posts being typed. *braces*

Then you still have the problem of the same tyre (as now) with the same wear (as now) fitted for the same race (as now) to a race modified Impreza, a purpose built LMP and a Formula car.

And then you ship up to another event and tyre wear is mysteriously doubled (in accordance with that series' real life tyre wear) despite being exactly the same application, which is a new problem...

 

[Ven0m]

Because marketing.

Incidentally, if you drive a modern LMP at modern LMP speeds (not 5% faster, as we can do) on RH tyres you can equal single tyre stints from the real event.

Then you still have the problem of the same tyre (as now) with the same wear (as now) fitted for the same race (as now) to a race modified Impreza, a purpose built LMP and a Formula car.

And then you ship up to another event and tyre wear is mysteriously doubled (in accordance with that series' real life tyre wear) despite being exactly the same application, which is a new problem...

So what your saying Is you can't have LMP only settings, F1 only settings, NASCAR only settings, or any other series' settings individually marked on the lobby or race event? I can understand different classes not having the same settings but why not individually give each series there own settings options and call it a day? I really don't see how this is difficult. Just don't allow other random cars into the "xxxxxx only lobby". If people want to take these cars outside of those lobby's then they use the current unrealistic standard. Just my two cents.

 

[yanaran]

Because marketing.

Incidentally, if you drive a modern LMP at modern LMP speeds (not 5% faster, as we can do) on RH tyres you can equal single tyre stints from the real event.

Why do you (not just you Famine) keep saying that? It's not true. The '10 908 did a 3'19 best in the race, which I believe is still a (race) lap record. I don't know what they did for averages but as I said before in 2011 they did 3'25s-3'33s through all 4 stints. Please show me even one stint (12 laps) at that speed if you think it's so easy.

If you look at onboard footage you need racing mediums to stand any chance of matching real life cornering speeds. The reason ingame lap times seem faster is because the GT versions of the cars are too quick on the straights.

 

[Famine]

So what your saying Is you can't have LMP only settings, F1 only settings, NASCAR only settings, or any other series' settings individually marked on the lobby or race event? I can understand different classes not having the same settings but why not individually give each series there own settings options and call it a day? I really don't see how this is difficult. Just don't allow other random cars into the "xxxxxx only lobby". If people want to take these cars outside of those lobby's then they use the current unrealistic standard. Just my two cents.

I'm not talking about online lobbies - but then why should they be restricted in any way other than the way the "hosts" want them to be - but all races.

Go to the 24hr Le Mans race in A-Spec. Have a look what the car restrictions are. It's "none". With the generotyres in place either you have to come up with an individual tyre wear model for each car anyone could enter (above and beyond that of power + weight + speed + slip + distance + surface friction coefficient) - which is all of them - or you get what you have now.

If you decide that different series have different tyre wear, you get a situation where you can run a set car in a set series (say... NASCAR) on set tyres and get a set wear rate but then enter the same car on the same tyres in a different series (say... Le Mans) that the car is also eligible for but get completely different tyre wear even at the same track. Why? "X" tyre on "X" car should wear at "X" rate depending on the slip, speed, distance and friction variables - it's simply not acceptable to have a car circulating a dry La Sarthe at the same average lap speeds and get completely different wear rates because the A-Spec event has a different name...

Why do you (not just you Famine) keep saying that? It's not true. The '10 908 did a 3'19 best in the race, which I believe is still a (race) lap record. I don't know what they did for averages but as I said before in 2011 they did 3'25s-3'33s through all 4 stints. Please show me even one stint (12 laps) at that speed if you think it's so easy.

Watch the AI some time.

Start a 24 hour race and pull up. Count the laps as the AI go past. One of them (can't remember which) does a 16 lap stint - albeit in the wet.