Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[danielwhite74]

Yeah, because in GT4 oversteer was non-existent unless you tuned for it, every car drove as if it were magnetically attached to the track you were on. When cars did oversteer it was nothing but snap oversteer which happened in the most unrealistic ways possible, driving on dirt courses was a joke...you couldn't drive without crashing into a wall or barricade.

Oh, and did I mention you could drive through almost every corner on every track, with almost every single car using full acceleration with no ill-effects whatsoever?

What was your argument again?

That is completely false. I challenge you to turn off all driving assists and use S1 tires, then tell anyone with a straight face that "oversteer is non-existent unless you tuned for it" and "you can use "full acceleration with no ill effects whatsoever." That is exactly what happens in Forza using standard tires and no assists (if you replace "oversteer" with "understeer"), not Gran Turismo.

 

[Terronium-12]

That is completely false. I challenge you to turn off all driving assists and use S1 tires, then tell anyone with a straight face that "oversteer is non-existent unless you tuned for it" and "you can use "full acceleration with no ill effects whatsoever." That is exactly what happens in Forza using standard tires and no assists (if you replace "oversteer" with "understeer"), not Gran Turismo.

Are you still on about this?

Considering you're challenging me to use a specific set of tires to experience behavioral patterns that should be prevalent on any tire compound, that wouldn't make it completely false, now would it? Instead, it would be more like what Dave suggested...

Not quite true and very exaggerated...

Granted, oversteer was non-existent on 4WD vehicles in Forza 2 (the R34 in particular) but try taking any car in Forza 3 around any corner using full throttle and see if you'll maintain that course of direction on any compound.

 

[VXR]

Did anyone ever get so worked up over the Sega GT series?

The reason there's so much aggro is because for once there's an upstart that does some things better than Gran Turismo and the fanboys can't just accept that.

What's funniest is, with GT coming out so much earlier, Forza fans were very likely once GT fans and shock, horror, decided they liked T10's offering more.

As for the oversteer issue, I quite often see people offering solutions for GT4 to make the cars respond like a real car should. I crashed my E36 thanks to snap-oversteer. Oh how I'd love to have been using settings akin to GT4's standard offering as I'd still own it. Oh how realistic that my Dad's 3.0 S-Type will power-over to a small degree with DSC engaged, yet when I tried the S-Type R in-game with the settings switched off, it wouldn't lift-off, let alone power. C'mon guys, if you're going to champion a game as a simulator, ignoring the fact that it doesn't model real-world driving is blind ignorance.

 

[Moglet]

Regarding the whole 'in game vs. photomode car models', why exactly does that even matter? The only time you're going to see that sort of detail is in photomode, when the model is full. When your car is flying along in a race you cannot see any of the details that are lower of a lower polygon count anyway! So why is this argument even bought up?

It's like saying that you get annoyed that your neighbour walks round naked when he never comes out of his house.

 

[TBR 427]

Regarding the whole 'in game vs. photomode car models', why exactly does that even matter? The only time you're going to see that sort of detail is in photomode, when the model is full. When your car is flying along in a race you cannot see any of the details that are lower of a lower polygon count anyway! So why is this argument even bought up?

It's like saying that you get annoyed that your neighbour walks round naked when he never comes out of his house.

A good try, but people do tend to look at cars while in-race, and I doubt ANYONE is going to be annoyed by any visual update to the cars (and they've already got only 8 cars, so it couldn't get any lower to compensate). Perhaps then it would bring it (in-game) up to par with games like Shift (PC Shift, anyway), Supercar Challenge, etc.

That said, your argument does have a tiny bit of merit. Things like wheel nuts and what not are pointless while flying down the straight at 200mph. That's why GT5 and Forza and Race On (etc, etc, etc) switch to 2D (flat) rims when the wheels are in motion (I think Prologue kicks in at 15kph, can't remember about Forza). There is a limit to how much detail it's actually worth putting into a game model, but you're fooling yourself if you think Forza 3 is anywhere near that limit.

 

[Terronium-12]

Does it really matter?

 

[mykem]

Quite so, but overall many of the cars felt that way, at least to me.

Didn't stop me from enjoying it though.

Which is the main point I'm trying to convey; just enjoy the damn game and stop picking at every possible mundane problem one can find. Either of the two are only going to be as realistic as necessary, not necessarily as realistic as possible by any definition.

I think that's one of the failure of the Forza series (or a blessing to its developer). I have to preface by saying that while I played Forza 2 quite a bit, not so much time was spent with its successor (not because I don't like it but at the moment I don't own any gaming console). While playing Forza 2, as any Forza fans should, I would spend time on either FM.net or Forzacentral forums. Unlike what's going on here especially on GT5 forums, there's very little discussion about how Forza 3 physics might be improved. If there was and I have tried myself to initiate such discussion but it would always turn into "why not just enjoy the game", "if you want real physics go drive a real car","it's just a game" and in the end gravitate towards the usual name calling.

I agree that games are meant to be enjoyed but the racing genre is very different from your typical shooter especially when it's considered a driving or racing sim. Without pointing out the obvious, there's level of sophistication that's unique only to the genre. While discussion won't necessarily improve the physics of any sims (that's why we have people like Gjon Camaj), I'm sure it sends a message to the developer of what the fans are really interested in.

 

[Terronium-12]

That's point is moot at best. Console racing games, no matter how sim-like they're referred to as, are only going to be as realistic as necessary. If it borders on being too realistic you lose money, and hear nothing but complaints.

Why? Because you're appealing to a bigger audience, and you have to make console games accessible to everyone...regardless of the driving aids or difficulty settings. Remember Ferrari Challenge for the PS2/PS3? Yeah, case in point...there's a reason why Supercar Challenge has to be imported to the US if you want a copy.

That's probably the seventh time I've said that as of late.

 

[Eric.]

And think about it - every Gran Turismo game up to this point has been a single player experience. Buying, driving, and tuning cars are pretty much what you do. Forza's very community-oriented. There's pretty much infinite personalization for your cars. You can set up a storefront and sell your tunes or liveries. Get some fame and auction off your cars for big money. And then at the end of the day, you get online and face off to the rest of the world in a car that's possibly 100% unique to you.

I'm not really sure what I could pinpoint that needs improvement for physics. The steering aid needs to be minimized (or user-adjustable). That's responsible for not being able to do Scandinavian Flicks and such. Everything else feels pretty good. Changes in settings are noticeable, different drivetrains drive like they should, and so forth. The next one just needs more stuff* and FM2's online system (which could co-exist with the current one if they wanted to).


* Stuff refers to: cars, tracks, track variations, career races, car modifications [i.e. drag tires, different wheel widths, WIDER TIRE OPTIONS, nitrous kits(limited to drag racing) (I don't know why all of this has to do with drag racing...), and so on and so forth] and so on and so forth.

 

[FyreandIce]

Regarding the whole 'in game vs. photomode car models', why exactly does that even matter? The only time you're going to see that sort of detail is in photomode, when the model is full. When your car is flying along in a race you cannot see any of the details that are lower of a lower polygon count anyway! So why is this argument even bought up?

It's like saying that you get annoyed that your neighbour walks round naked when he never comes out of his house.

I can agree to a certain extent but the Level Of Detail does not change enough due to distance.

When you're close, the cars LOD is the same as when you are far away.

Also, the game wouldn't look so bad if, in game, you could see the interiors of not only your own but your opponents cars aswell.

Seriously, black out interiors are pre 2000...

p.s also, the fact that all the interiors are made up of shades of grey except some buttons is pathetic aswell :'( I want an F430 in black with tan leather god dang it!!!

 

[VXR]

FM3 has turned out as any game rushed by the publishers might; that it's still good enough is quite an achievement.

I don't think the physics need to change to any extent. I find driving cars fun. I find driving Forza's cars fun. I'm not there to analyse a physics model, but to me, FM3 feels quite akin to how driving a real car feels; the lateral grip is slightly off-kilter, but I've never known a console game to get that right anyway. A real car will grip to quite high speeds without moving into the next lane for example, otherwise we'd be moving all over the road when negotiating a corner.

The 360 pad does quite an honest job of providing feel, though. The throttle is adjustable. The analogues don't feel as handicapped here as they do in Pro Evo, for example, as they only need two-way movement for Forza. The cars flow nicely over undulations and weight transfer at times is quite obvious, such as downhill on Camino di Viejo, just under the tree, before the hairpin. In the demo, the Cooper S would quite often go light at the back and start to slide and it continued in the full release.

 

[mykem]

That's point is moot at best. Console racing games, no matter how sim-like they're referred to as, are only going to be as realistic as necessary. If it borders on being too realistic you lose money, and hear nothing but complaints.

Why? Because you're appealing to a bigger audience, and you have to make console games accessible to everyone...regardless of the driving aids or difficulty settings. Remember Ferrari Challenge for the PS2/PS3? Yeah, case in point...there's a reason why Supercar Challenge has to be imported to the US if you want a copy.

That's probably the seventh time I've said that as of late.

It's most certainly a moot point. Yet my point isn't so much about how realistic a console sim can be or should be but it has more to do with what appear to be the voice of its fans/users.

My recollection of Ferrari Challenge (for the PS3 in my case) is that it's difficult but with a highly unrealistic physics and a strong but odd FFB. It's greatest failure though is that it brought nothing new to the table. Even if the physics were accessible, it's still a mediocre game and sim. I can see that it might have a following in EU and UK but NA, not a chance.

Without turning this into GT vs Forza flamewar, there is always the option of having two separate physics. Yes, just like GT5P and most probably GT5. Less compromise is required and driving aids become what they should be: turn it on if you find it too difficult and if that's still to hard, move down to a more manageable physics. But don't do it the way SHIFT did it- way too many variations and then forgetting to add the filter to the ranking.

 

[newbielives]

If only Ferrari Challenge supported the clutch on my g25 It could have been on my constant playlist

It's most certainly a moot point. Yet my point isn't so much about how realistic a console sim can be or should be but it has more to do with what appear to be the voice of its fans/users.

My recollection of Ferrari Challenge (for the PS3 in my case) is that it's difficult but with a highly unrealistic physics and a strong but odd FFB. It's greatest failure though is that it brought nothing new to the table. Even if the physics were accessible, it's still a mediocre game and sim. I can see that it might have a following in EU and UK but NA, not a chance.

Without turning this into GT vs Forza flamewar, there is always the option of having two separate physics. Yes, just like GT5P and most probably GT5. Less compromise is required and driving aids become what they should be: turn it on if you find it too difficult and if that's still to hard, move down to a more manageable physics. But don't do it the way SHIFT did it- way too many variations and then forgetting to add the filter to the ranking.

 

[mykem]

If only Ferrari Challenge supported the clutch on my g25 It could have been on my constant playlist

Without going too much OT; Yes, I can understand why some people love FC. I've played it and enjoyed since the first day it arrived in NA. But I can't stand how the steering feels. I wish I could explain it better as to what is missing from FC's physics and FFB but here's an excerpt from a discussion on NoGrip Forum about the feel in iRacing (it's not mine but someone with the handle AeroMechanical):

"...There is a certain amount of springy play in the steering wheel around the area where the tire wants to follow its self aligning force. It gives the impression better that what I'm doing is applying force to the wheel rather than simply turning it. It really is just an impression thing though."

In FC, despite the weight in the FFB, you only get the sense of simply turning the wheel and little else. To me it's the main reason why every car in the game seems to oversteer way too much.

 

[Moglet]

I can agree to a certain extent but the Level Of Detail does not change enough due to distance.

When you're close, the cars LOD is the same as when you are far away.

Also, the game wouldn't look so bad if, in game, you could see the interiors of not only your own but your opponents cars aswell.

Seriously, black out interiors are pre 2000...

p.s also, the fact that all the interiors are made up of shades of grey except some buttons is pathetic aswell :'( I want an F430 in black with tan leather god dang it!!!

I never suggested anything was related to the distance....

As for blacked out interiors being pre 2000, they're not blacked out at all, you can still see pretty much everything just with less detail and if you're looking at the detail instead of racing then.....why not just use photomode anyway? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Also, if blacked out interiors are pre 2000 then why the hell is GT5, the supposed 'king of racers' and the holy grail according to 99% of this forum, still using them for 80% of the vehicles? GT5 fanboys (who mostly stay away from this section, luckily) are very quick to point out little things like this in Forza 3, but as soon as GT5 does the same thing they have some sort of excuse that makes it fine in their own heads. It's pathetic

Everyone needs to chill out and just race some damn cars! Why do people even care about the level of detail from the outside view? You shouldn't be looking at it while you're racing. If people want to just look at cars, go to a showroom!

 

[VXR]

I think people who bash FM3's graphics should play the game, go into photomode and zoom in on the detail in the interiors. I mean, it's not like GT4 used higher quality models for its photomode. Of course not.

 

[danielwhite74]

Are you still on about this?

Considering you're challenging me to use a specific set of tires to experience behavioral patterns that should be prevalent on any tire compound, that wouldn't make it completely false, now would it? Instead, it would be more like what Dave suggested...
Granted, oversteer was non-existent on 4WD vehicles in Forza 2 (the R34 in particular) but try taking any car in Forza 3 around any corner using full throttle and see if you'll maintain that course of direction on any compound.

The behavioural patterns are, of course, prevalent on any compound. My reason for asking you to use Normal tyres was down to the fact that this is the only tyre compound that Forza Motorsport 3 allows you to use in Free Play mode, thus using any other compound in Gran Turismo 4 would invalidate the comparison.

If you actually try this, as opposed to asking more evading questions, you'll see that Forza's vehicle dynamics are ridiculously forgiving compared to Gran Turismo's. While I concede that Forza isn't entirely devoid of loss of grip when cornering at full throttle, as in games such as Need For Speed, the notion that cornering involves an even moderately realistic level of unforgiveness is nonsense.

 

[Terronium-12]

The behavioural patterns are, of course, prevalent on any compound. My reason for asking you to use Normal tyres was down to the fact that this is the only tyre compound that Forza Motorsport 3 allows you to use in Free Play mode, thus using any other compound in Gran Turismo 4 would invalidate the comparison.

If you actually try this, as opposed to asking more evading questions, you'll see that Forza's vehicle dynamics are ridiculously forgiving compared to Gran Turismo's. While I concede that Forza isn't entirely devoid of loss of grip when cornering at full throttle, as in games such as Need For Speed, the notion that cornering involves an even moderately realistic level of unforgiveness is nonsense.

This conversation is done. Drop it and move on.

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Sobering thoughts about Forza 3, then.

1. It feels completely lifeless and dull most of the time
For all the work Turn10 and Microsoft have done to try and convince me that this is the 'definitive' racing game the career mode couldn't be any worse i.e. it couldn't be any easier to race, even on the hardest difficulty, with all assists off it's too easy to control cars and the game is hardly a looker...apart from some, admittedly, fantastic photo-mode shots.

2. Online integration is really, really bad.
On release they limited online to A class and above causing the community to stunt growth. Even now, 9 months post release, numbers are bad.

Worst of all the online system is, putting this politely, atrocious. In the last few days I've spent upwards of 30 minutes trying to get in to games for a variety of reasons. They are:
a) the game freezes my XBOX360 so I have to reset
b) the game is 'Joining Lobby' for minutes only to put me in a lobby with myself so I have to search again...and get the same result again etc... How?
c) the game is 'Joining Lobby', I hear the 'Whah' noise, once or multiple times and it disconnects me
d) the game is 'Joining Lobby', I hear the 'Whah' noise, once or multiple times and it puts me in a lobby with myself so I have to search again...and get the same result again etc...
e) the game connects me to a lobby that's on the 1st lap...on multiple occasions. I'm sure there's at least 1 or 2 lobbies not racing yet.
f) the game doesn't have the option for players to select a 'Ready' state to start the next race. Why the hell not?

I don't know. To me it's absolutely not acceptable. I pay money to use XBL and this is the service I get in a game in my favourite genre.

Shambles. Actually, more precisely, I'm really disappointed and mad.

 

[McLaren]

As for blacked out interiors being pre 2000, they're not blacked out at all, you can still see pretty much everything just with less detail and if you're looking at the detail instead of racing then.....why not just use photomode anyway? Do you see what I'm getting at?

A good example of this is the 911 SC. It's certainly not detailed, but you can see pretty clearly into it while racing from the rear.

2 cents.

 

[VXR]

Sobering thoughts; some people who drive real cars like Forza. Ever thought that as both series are computer simulations, neither is de facto spot-on as it's a recreation of a real thing and therefore open to individual preference?

The devs of each game have driven cars too, so if it was easy to nail how a car drives, wouldn't both games feel the same?

Some people like the way a certain car drives, some people don't, yet that car could be universally well rated by most.

I don't know what it is, but some GT fans seem too scared to admit that Forza has seriously challenged GT's hegemony in the console sim world.

And what's with people spending so much time looking at the opposition car detail? That might be OK in GT of old with its pedestrian concept of speed, but in the Forza world, the game tends to run quicker and it's not even something I'd noticed until I saw people mention it on here.

 

[danielwhite74]

This conversation is done. Drop it and move on.

Sounds like I've hit a raw nerve. This conversation was far from "done." You make some unconvincing excuse about tyre compounds in order to evade comparing the games' handling directly, then demand that the debate be dropped when you clearly decide that your argument is flawed and damage limitation is impossible. All I was asking that you play both games and confirm that you still stand by your opinion that Forza's handling is more realistic and unforgiving.

 

[Terronium-12]

Sounds like I've hit a raw nerve. This conversation was far from "done." You make some unconvincing excuse about tyre compounds in order to evade comparing the games' handling directly, then demand that the debate be dropped when you clearly decide that your argument is flawed and damage limitation is impossible. All I was asking that you play both games and confirm that you still stand by your opinion that Forza's handling is more realistic and unforgiving.

If it helps you to go on about your day, then go right ahead and think whatever it is you're thinking.

 

[danielwhite74]

If it helps you to go on about your day, then go right ahead and think whatever it is you're thinking.

I can do that, though that wouldn't be very interesting, would it? The whole idea of joining a forum is to discuss and debate issues and ideas. I'm genuinely interested in why you consider Forza's driving physics realistic.

 

[Eric.]

Sobering thoughts about Forza 3, then.

1. It feels completely lifeless and dull most of the time
For all the work Turn10 and Microsoft have done to try and convince me that this is the 'definitive' racing game the career mode couldn't be any worse i.e. it couldn't be any easier to race, even on the hardest difficulty, with all assists off it's too easy to control cars and the game is hardly a looker...apart from some, admittedly, fantastic photo-mode shots.

2. Online integration is really, really bad.
On release they limited online to A class and above causing the community to stunt growth. Even now, 9 months post release, numbers are bad.

Worst of all the online system is, putting this politely, atrocious. In the last few days I've spent upwards of 30 minutes trying to get in to games for a variety of reasons. They are:
a) the game freezes my XBOX360 so I have to reset
b) the game is 'Joining Lobby' for minutes only to put me in a lobby with myself so I have to search again...and get the same result again etc... How?
c) the game is 'Joining Lobby', I hear the 'Whah' noise, once or multiple times and it disconnects me
d) the game is 'Joining Lobby', I hear the 'Whah' noise, once or multiple times and it puts me in a lobby with myself so I have to search again...and get the same result again etc...
e) the game connects me to a lobby that's on the 1st lap...on multiple occasions. I'm sure there's at least 1 or 2 lobbies not racing yet.
f) the game doesn't have the option for players to select a 'Ready' state to start the next race. Why the hell not?

I don't know. To me it's absolutely not acceptable. I pay money to use XBL and this is the service I get in a game in my favourite genre.

Shambles. Actually, more precisely, I'm really disappointed and mad.

I had these issues online. Go to www.portforward.com, find your router, find FM3 and do what it says. For me, the box saying something like "block all anonymous incoming connections" was checked, and when I unchecked it I could immediately join every game I wanted to.

 

[Terronium-12]

I can do that, though that wouldn't be very interesting, would it? The whole idea of joining a forum is to discuss and debate issues and ideas. I'm genuinely interested in why you consider Forza's driving physics realistic.

I don't recall ever having said the physics were realistic. I did, however, say that they were as realistic as necessary.

Granted, oversteer was non-existent on 4WD vehicles in Forza 2 (the R34 in particular)

Doesn't sound like me saying the physics are very realistic there...

Granted, there are some annoyances with the physics (i.e. the braking distances are off, there's an oversteer bias, and, the LMP-class vehicles are practically impossible to drive with a controller without TCS enabled...) but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "very fun arcade racer..." It does plenty well, and then there are some things it just fuffs up.

Or here....

But, seriously though, I really don't see the excessive grip claim....unless you're referring to how easy it is to countersteer (or recover from) when you're about to oversteer, then, that I would agree with. Even that has a particular threshold though because once you let it go too far there's no amount of countersteer that's going to get you back into a straight line.

Or here. I'm sure you get the point by now.

 

[danielwhite74]

...or why you consider Gran Turismo 4's driving physics unrealistic?

 

[Terronium-12]

...or why you consider Gran Turismo 4's driving physics unrealistic?

Let's see...

Rally physics? Crap.
Oversteer? Practically non-existent.
Snap oversteer? I won't even get into that, let's just say that it too was crap.
Grip? Yeah, too much.

A general summation, but that's what I've observed over the years. Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure on the snap oversteer as I've never experienced it in real life...but it just didn't feel right to me...to be honest whenever it did happen to me it felt like I was rotating on an axis.

 

[VXR]

Snap oversteer happened to me twice. The first time was on a wet road and I got lucky and the second ended in a crash. It's nasty and GT4 didn't do it.

 

[FyreandIce]

I don't recall ever having said the physics were realistic. I did, however, say that they were as realistic as necessary.
Doesn't sound like me saying the physics are very realistic there...
Or here....
Or here. I'm sure you get the point by now.

If I may interject for a second, you have troubles with the LMP cars in FM3? lol

One thing I wish in FM3 is races cars were trickier to handle. I am sick of getting my DBR9 or LMP car into a 70 degree slid and being able to save it

And all that is down to the god damn, rediculous, not needed, wimpy, limp wristed, simulation ruining "steering assist"

Without that, I would enjoy the game more. But then again, still not as much as FM1 or 2 because there is no damn system link