Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[Moglet]

If I may interject for a second, you have troubles with the LMP cars in FM3? lol

One thing I wish in FM3 is races cars were trickier to handle. I am sick of getting my DBR9 or LMP car into a 70 degree slid and being able to save it

And all that is down to the god damn, rediculous, not needed, wimpy, limp wristed, simulation ruining "steering assist"

Without that, I would enjoy the game more. But then again, still not as much as FM1 or 2 because there is no damn system link

Forza 3 isn't aimed at serious sim racers. If the handling was super realistic it would be bloody infuriating for users playing with controllers! It's as realistic as it needs to be to appeal to the casual gamer, and at the end of the day I'd rather they made it fun for everyone than fun for a few and annoying for 90% of the gaming population. Because I'm in that 90%;I play games for fun, and I enjoy them. Arcade racers are fun even if the handling isn't amazingly realistic.

Do you people refuse to play first person shooters because the enemies' heads don't explode 100% accurately?

I think the real 'sobering thought' here is that some people are so sad they expect every single game to be what they want it to be regardless of the rest of the world. That's very scary and very selfish. Instead of worrying if Forza's cars have realistic grip at the limit, just play the game and have a laugh!

Or, better still, go outside and meet people. Just don't bring up interior modelling or they'll slap you.

 

[12thgear]

I think the reason a lot of people are bagging on Forza is because of developer comments regarding the physics. People were expecting more than what Forza delivered from a realism standpoint. It gets a lot of things right, and production cars feel quite good with a wheel. Some of the supercars and the race cars are awfully forgiving though.

Personally, I've enjoyed the hell out of every Forza and GT. They're not as mercilessly accurate as the best PC sims I've played, but they offer things I can't get in any PC sim: a huge selection of production cars, and lots of upgrade/tuning options in a very easy to digest package.

 

[danielwhite74]

Forza 3 isn't aimed at serious sim racers.

You are completely correct, and I very much understand why some people prefer arcade racers to simulators. The reason why people are pissed off is Turn 10's pathetic behaviour and claims of superior realism. Dan Greenawalt, the game director at Turn 10, promised "the best simulator you'll find on any console," not a tepid, arcade driving game.

 

[Playguy]

Snap oversteer happened to me twice. The first time was on a wet road and I got lucky and the second ended in a crash. It's nasty and GT4 didn't do it.

Then you haven't played long enough, or with out aids off.

I played GT4 for years, and I loved it, but the driving physics were wack. In real life, I can make my FWD Opel Tigra 1.4 90HP oversteer at 15 miles per hour. Try that on GT4, even with a full on 300 HP RWD sportscar. Of course tyres were important, but GT3 had a looser feeling with the same selection of tyres.
Now, to me GT3 was the real good driving simulator of the PS and PS2 days. It really rocked. Shame it didn't have a very good car list, but it was awesome. Much better than GT4, in terms of driving physics.

 

[VXR]

I play with the aids off and have driven enough cars to have at least 50% of my 4,000 GT4 shots taken from replays.

Snap oversteer is violent and it never feels violent in GT4 to me, whereas in FM3, it's quite easy to overcook the tyres with snap oversteer. Of course, that could be because the sensation of speed in GT has never been right. The Nordschleife on GT4 is much easier than FM3, for example, because you have so much more time to react in GT4.

 

[Zer0]

I play with the aids off and have driven enough cars to have at least 50% of my 4,000 GT4 shots taken from replays.

Snap oversteer is violent and it never feels violent in GT4 to me, whereas in FM3, it's quite easy to overcook the tyres with snap oversteer. Of course, that could be because the sensation of speed in GT has never been right. The Nordschleife on GT4 is much easier than FM3, for example, because you have so much more time to react in GT4.

Steering wheel(IMPORTANT: switch off active steering and assisted steering), manual gears, no aids and n2 tires:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLbc36C5cOQ#t=0m53s

Played almost every car with that setup and found just the contrary what you said.

 

[danielwhite74]

I play with the aids off and have driven enough cars to have at least 50% of my 4,000 GT4 shots taken from replays.

Snap oversteer is violent and it never feels violent in GT4 to me, whereas in FM3, it's quite easy to overcook the tyres with snap oversteer. Of course, that could be because the sensation of speed in GT has never been right. The Nordschleife on GT4 is much easier than FM3, for example, because you have so much more time to react in GT4.

That's completely false. I can lap the Nordschleife in Forza 3 with my eyes closed, due to the ridiculous amount of grip and complete lack of incurable understeer or oversteer vehicles have. The illusion of a better sensation of speed in Forza's Nordschleife is most likely down to the fact that it's noticeably smaller than its real life counterpart, as opposed to Gran Turismo's 1:1 scale tracks.

 

[[empty space]]

depends on the car and set up. ive a lot of problems with the lmp/r1s at norschleife because of sudden loss of front grip which generally takes me offline enough to ruin my lap or slam into the outside wall.

i still need a 360 wheel

 

[Scaff]

The illusion of a better sensation of speed in Forza's Nordschleife is most likely down to the fact that it's noticeably smaller than its real life counterpart, as opposed to Gran Turismo's 1:1 scale tracks.

Uhhh no its not.

The Forza 'ring is bigger than the real 'ring, while a number of issues were fixed for FM3 some of the problems still remain.

The chief one being that the track is simply to wide, which was done to help accommodate on-line racing, the result is that a good number of corner radii are messed up totally changing the nature of the corner in question.

One side effect of this is that the greater width has increased (not decreased) the length of the track.

What FM3 did improve was some of the curb profiles and the track surface detail (previous versions were far too smooth).


Regards

Scaff

 

[JDMKING13]

Forza Physics are not that good and that what got me mad is I spent alot of money preparing for F3. Dan got me so pumped with that physics talk, but in the end same thing. I remember watching a show Most Expensive cars. It was featuring a Porsche Carrera GT. During the episode the people where saying how much power the car has and how a driver has to be extremely careful with the throttle because without percise throttle response the car would go out of control. They showed drivers trying to push the car around the winding road loosing control of the rear it was real fun to watch . After I watched that I said to myself Oh i gotta play Forza3 because it has the Porsche Carrera GT. When driving the Carrera in Forza I was really sad the car handled like @ 250HP FR with R tires. It has no characteristic of a MR, It also has super amount of grip with its standard tires. Throttle control is not needed you can blast out the turn full throttle. If you want to have fun while playing a racing game Forza3 is definatly your game. Im all for simulation so i stick with GT5P/ GT5. 👍

 

[Moglet]

Dan Greenawalt, the game director at Turn 10, promised "the best simulator you'll find on any console," not a tepid, arcade driving game.

And Kaz said GT5 would be out by now but it isn't. It doesn't change anything about the actual game.

 

[Terronium-12]

Forza Physics are not that good and that what got me mad is I spent alot of money preparing for F3. Dan got me so pumped with that physics talk, but in the end same thing. I remember watching a show Most Expensive cars. It was featuring a Porsche Carrera GT. During the episode the people where saying how much power the car has and how a driver has to be extremely careful with the throttle because without percise throttle response the car would go out of control. They showed drivers trying to push the car around the winding road loosing control of the rear it was real fun to watch . After I watched that I said to myself Oh i gotta play Forza3 because it has the Porsche Carrera GT. When driving the Carrera in Forza I was really sad the car handled like @ 250HP FR with R tires. It has no characteristic of a MR, It also has super amount of grip with its standard tires. Throttle control is not needed you can blast out the turn full throttle. If you want to have fun while playing a racing game Forza3 is definatly your game. Im all for simulation so i stick with GT5P/ GT5. 👍

So, we've established for at least the fifteenth time that Forza sucks for some reason or another....blah, blah, blah.

The question I'd like to pose is why everyone seems to be under the impression that a vehicle has to be nearly uncontrollable for the game to be considered realistic? There are a lot of factors that contribute to the characteristics of any vehicle. Whether it be a Ford Fusion, RS200, or even a Ferrari Enzo. Hell, try taking the Veyron or better yet, take the Ultimate Aero to any track and try launching from the line with full throttle and see where you end up.

It won't be in a straight line, that's for damn sure. Try powering out of any corner and tell me if you don't slide/oversteer. Is it manageable? Sure, if you take your "foot" off of the accelerator and dry steer back into a forthright position. Otherwise, you'll just end up facing a wall, probably upside-down. In GT5 you can take an F2007, using any compound, launch from the line with full throttle and still be in a straight line....with cold tires. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you can do that with any of the cars in Prologue, although I'm not 100% certain anymore as I haven't played in months.

 

[VXR]

I don't know what you were doing wrong, but considering every Forza detractor claims the game is too happy to oversteer, mashing the throttle in a powerful mid-engine, RWD car and not getting power-oversteer doesn't sound like Forza or real-life to me.

Just because GT has never been overly oversteer prone, doesn't mean that real cars are immune to it too.

You can take any car and get the back-end to break loose if you're violent enough, so I don't see why FM3's tendency to simulate oversteer if you're not sensitive enough with the throttle or steering inaccurate.

A lot of Forza's simulation comes down to the driver's attitude. You can drive at 10/10ths and oversteer everywhere or you can scale it back a little and be more measured with your approach and drive cleanly. OK, so FM3 might just show you what happens when a tyre loses grip and traction quicker than you're used to, but it's NOT unrealistic for a car to react in the way the game does after that point.

 

[JDMKING13]

I don't know what you were doing wrong, but considering every Forza detractor claims the game is too happy to oversteer, mashing the throttle in a powerful mid-engine, RWD car and not getting power-oversteer doesn't sound like Forza or real-life to me.

Just because GT has never been overly oversteer prone, doesn't mean that real cars are immune to it too.

You can take any car and get the back-end to break loose if you're violent enough, so I don't see why FM3's tendency to simulate oversteer if you're not sensitive enough with the throttle or steering inaccurate.

A lot of Forza's simulation comes down to the driver's attitude. You can drive at 10/10ths and oversteer everywhere or you can scale it back a little and be more measured with your approach and drive cleanly. OK, so FM3 might just show you what happens when a tyre loses grip and traction quicker than you're used to, but it's NOT unrealistic for a car to react in the way the game does after that point.

Have you played GT5P before?

@ T Forza race cars handle well in my opinion its just something about the production cars that are off IMO Its not a bad game man don't have to get so up set i just said when it comes to simulation i like GT more.

 

[VXR]

Yeah, but that's it; a simulation is one person/team's interpretation. I feel Forza gets it closer than the last GT I played, which is 4. I've yet to buy a PS3.

I'd not argue the toss if people didn't claim GT to be the best in absolute terms and just explained why they prefer it more often. The fact people have to go to settings and tuning to get GT4 to behave more realistically shows there was something off in its simulation as standard.

 

[Zer0]

The fact people have to go to settings and tuning to get GT4 to behave more realistically shows there was something off in its simulation as standard.

There is nothing off on disabling all the aids in order to obtain the best simulation. The aids are often put there to help the less skilled players making the cars unrealistically easy to handle. In fact you can't make a valid judgement without disabling them. By default GT like most games is configured for casual players and you need to get rid of all that if you want simulation. Same about the default high grip tires.

I like to leave all my cars stock with no tune.

 

[TeamStig]

The Nordschleife on GT4 is much easier than FM3, for example, because you have so much more time to react in GT4.

Well driving the Nordschliefe in GT4 would be easier, had Turn 10 not taken the creative license to widen, lengthen, and smooth out the Nordschliefe in their game.

 

[danielwhite74]

And Kaz said GT5 would be out by now but it isn't. It doesn't change anything about the actual game.

You're completely correct. A game's release date changes absolutely nothing about the actual game. On the other hand, in what possible way does a pathetic arcade physics model not "change anything about the actual game?"

 

[VXR]

Because it's not an arcade physics model. It simulates real-world responses of a vehicle when the tyre loses peak grip. Like I said, just because it does it quicker than you're used to in your preferred brand of racing game, doesn't mean it's unrealistic.

People who are car fans wouldn't have taken to it as highly as they have if it wasn't a realistic simulation of their hobby.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yeah, but that's it; a simulation is one person/team's interpretation. I feel Forza gets it closer than the last GT I played, which is 4. I've yet to buy a PS3.

I'd not argue the toss if people didn't claim GT to be the best in absolute terms and just explained why they prefer it more often. The fact people have to go to settings and tuning to get GT4 to behave more realistically shows there was something off in its simulation as standard.

GT4... GT4 is not even close to GT5P in physics. You really have to play GT5P to understand what i mean. 👍

 

[Eric.]

And how many of us have done that?

There is nothing off on disabling all the aids in order to obtain the best simulation. The aids are often put there to help the less skilled players making the cars unrealistically easy to handle. In fact you can't make a valid judgement without disabling them. By default GT like most games is configured for casual players and you need to get rid of all that if you want simulation. Same about the default high grip tires.

I like to leave all my cars stock with no tune.

See: GT4 Oversteer. To drift you have to tune for it.

Edit: Ugh...Forgot I was still in this thread. Merge please?

 

[Moglet]

You're completely correct. A game's release date changes absolutely nothing about the actual game. On the other hand, in what possible way does a pathetic arcade physics model not "change anything about the actual game?"

I never mentioned anything about a physics model. I was simply pointing out that developers talking to people about their games and saying things that might or might not be true is nothing new and doesn't change a thing about the game itself.

But then GT5 is immune to that sort of thing judging by a lot of the fanboys on this site

 

[Scaff]

Just because GT has never been overly oversteer prone, doesn't mean that real cars are immune to it too.

I feel Forza gets it closer than the last GT I played, which is 4. I've yet to buy a PS3.

Please be more careful how you post in future as your first statement here is a definitive one and its only with clarification (and only when asked) that you acknowledge you haven't played all GT releases (something your first post clearly implies you have).


On a more general note I would also have to say that is sounds a lot like the only GT you have a good degree of experience with is GT4, given that every other version has allowed fairly easy power on-oversteer.

You're post is not objective and falls into the exact same territory that you are complaining about in others.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70051

Have a read of the above thread, which I feel (well I would I wrote it) is a quite balanced look at the pros and cons of physics across the GT series (1 to 4 currently - 5 will be added when its possible to do a fair comparison).


Scaff

 

[VXR]

I had 1-3, too. Just too long ago to remember. I actually tried looking for 2 today in my city centre, but I couldn't find PS1 games anywhere.

I agree; the first quote is naive as GT4 is the one I remember most, wherwas my memory of two is entirely personal as my cousin got his copy two weeks before I could get mine.

 

[Joey D]

Please be more careful how you post in future as your first statement here is a definitive one and its only with clarification (and only when asked) that you acknowledge you haven't played all GT releases (something your first post clearly implies you have).


On a more general note I would also have to say that is sounds a lot like the only GT you have a good degree of experience with is GT4, given that every other version has allowed fairly easy power on-oversteer.

You're post is not objective and falls into the exact same territory that you are complaining about in others.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70051

Have a read of the above thread, which I feel (well I would I wrote it) is a quite balanced look at the pros and cons of physics across the GT series (1 to 4 currently - 5 will be added when its possible to do a fair comparison).


Scaff

I'm just curious here, do you say the same type of thing to GT fanboys who slag on Forza without ever playing it or playing it for 5 minutes? If you don't you probably should because I think they need a fare bit more telling the the random Forza person.

 

[Scaff]

I'm just curious here, do you say the same type of thing to GT fanboys who slag on Forza without ever playing it or playing it for 5 minutes?

I most certainly do.

If you don't you probably should because I think they need a fare bit more telling the the random Forza person.

My post was not made on a random basis, rather on a clear contradiction, to complain that no GT has power over-steer with having played them all is the sort of post that causes flame-fests.

Spend any time in the GT5 sub-forum and you would know that both sides are as bad as each other and I treat both with an equal hand.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Joey D]

I most certainly do.

Alright, I was just curious. It seems like a lot of Forza bashing gets overlooked but GT bashing gets you nicked. I'm not saying that's how it happens, it's just what I have observed.

My post was not made on a random basis, rather on a clear contradiction, to complain that no GT has power over-steer with having played them all is the sort of post that causes flame-fests.

Spend any time in the GT5 sub-forum and you would know that both sides are as bad as each other and I treat both with an equal hand.

Most discussion involving the comparison of GT and Forza ends up to be a flame-fest to be honest. All one has to do is look through any of the numerous threads that spring up throughout the website. Obviously the GT side is worse here because of the nature of the population, I'm sure it would be the exact opposite on a Forza forum.

And I try to avoid the GT5 sub-forum since there is almost nothing of value there for me. Anything I ever need to know about GT5 is posted by Jordan on the news page...which I do frequent quite a bit.

 

[LaBounti]

I hate how GT4 is still measured and compared to more modern games. it was completed in 2004.... I think enough time has passed that the "PS2" racer can be retired from modern gaming and simple be a nostalgic experience. And the comparisons just aren't relevant anymore. IMO NFS Shift is more enjoyable "today" than GT4 "today". Like toys to a 14 year old ,It was great 5 years ago....

 

[[empty space]]

but, this is a gt forum so isnt that what most people know?

 

[Terronium-12]

I hate how GT4 is still measured and compared to more modern games. it was completed in 2004.... I think enough time has passed that the "PS2" racer can be retired from modern gaming and simple be a nostalgic experience. And the comparisons just aren't relevant anymore. IMO NFS Shift is more enjoyable "today" than GT4 "today". Like toys to a 14 year old ,It was great 5 years ago....

Yet, when people use Prologue as an example you get a similar argument, except it's "That's not fair because it isn't a finished product!" Where does it end?

I'm not directing that toward you, just used your quote as a basis since you...well, said it.