Spec 2.0 AI, please dont misunderstand the video..

[TeggD]

I had the same issue in Shift. It felt like you were fighting the AI rather than racing them.

 

[Rumface]

I can understand the gripes you all have with me saying this but, on this video alone you can see why GT5 has that special magic to it. You can see the craftsmanship that Kaz strives to try and deliver even where other features show massive shortcomings. The AI politely avoids you like on a race track in GT5, however in Forza they react more as if they are playing the game themselves. Its those features that 90% of the user base don't ever notice. Like how the F1 cars in GT5 loose aero dynamic down force at low speeds or how air can catch the Nascar vehicles when they flip at high speed.

I'll end this comment here, because I'm a huge fan boy and I don't want to upset anyone....

Forza is a great game.

 

[Exorcet]

I can understand the gripes you all have with me saying this but, on this video alone you can see why GT5 has that special magic to it. You can see the craftsmanship that Kaz strives to try and deliver even where other features show massive shortcomings. The AI politely avoids you like on a race track in GT5, however in Forza they react more as if they are playing the game themselves. Its those features that 90% of the user base don't ever notice. Like how the F1 cars in GT5 loose aero dynamic down force at low speeds or how air can catch the Nascar vehicles when they flip at high speed.

Well, I guess.

I just see it as, PD got one aspect of AI right. I don't really think you can argue for perfect craftsmanship just because one feature is sort of OK. That just ignores all the other problems. Also, the F1 losing grip at low speed is just natural. The physics would be a joke if that didn't happen.

And 90% of people won't notice this because they don't park on the track. Like was said before, it doesn't matter if the AI bulldozes the player when the player is parked, if the AI drives like a human when the player is racing.

 

[vramak]

I don't think the AI would be specifically scripted to avoid parked cars. The AI is probably programmed to drive clean without making contact with other cars and I think this video demonstrates that GT5's AI does a nice job at avoiding contact. Between 0:28-0:32 you can see how the AI cars try to avoid hitting each other as well.

 

[jimmywizz]

I'v been doing a lot of a spec racing since 2.0 and I'v sead it before on the firum but the AI are better than before. take a car that is about mid way or at the lower end PP of the suggested cars make sure it has no upgrades. you must run the same tyres or a lower compound then go race. try loading the race a few times and see if you get diffrent out comes from the race.

 

[jimmywizz]

I will up load some videos if I get a chance over the weekend

 

[friedi]

intresing, but the Ai is still a bit too slow

 

[freedomweasel]

Difficulty of AI shouldn't mean anything when your taking into consideration how cleverly they react. Feel free to keep thinking what you like.

But it would change the lap times of the AI, which is what I was responding to.

 

[jimmywizz]

I agree they 'can be' a bit slow but if you run on a lower tyre compound this will negate this. I ran 3 or 4 races today in the Schwarzwald League A in a stock VW golf r32 I was runnin CS and thwe AI were on SH and the racing was unbelivable close with me chasing 1st place till the last turn and the rest of the pack on my tail fighting for 2nd.
If you put all the the parts on your car and run it at the higher end of the sugested PP you will win by a country mile everytime. But a lower powerd car they will give you a fight.
like I said my last post, try quiting out after each race so that you get a fresh set of cars and AI drivers and you will have varying out copmes in the race

 

[krioto]

I agree they 'can be' a bit slow but if you run on a lower tyre compound this will negate this. I ran 3 or 4 races today in the Schwarzwald League A in a stock VW golf r32 I was runnin CS and thwe AI were on SH and the racing was unbelivable close with me chasing 1st place till the last turn and the rest of the pack on my tail fighting for 2nd.
If you put all the the parts on your car and run it at the higher end of the sugested PP you will win by a country mile everytime. But a lower powerd car they will give you a fight.
like I said my last post, try quiting out after each race so that you get a fresh set of cars and AI drivers and you will have varying out copmes in the race

Agree completely - if you blow the AI away in terms of mods and HP, then yes, it can be real easy to win. If you match them or go below, then they're quite good to race against. GT needs to appeal to the wide market, so the onus is then put back on the player to really determine their difficulty level, so to speak.

 

[danardif1]

The Spec II races I've done in Arcade Mode have been brilliant... I've seen cars fighting up ahead of me for position, ones knocking other cars off through 'rash' moves. It's great! They are still a little slow in some areas, especially when grouped together in traction zones, but otherwise it's a BIG improvement.

And I don't get this stationary object test as being the ultimate arbiter of AI's competence... we're not all sitting round with our cars stopped on apexes, we're racing these cars, and the racing I'm having is pretty good when the cars are matched well.

 

[jimmywizz]

Agree completely - if you blow the AI away in terms of mods and HP, then yes, it can be real easy to win. If you match them or go below, then they're quite good to race against. GT needs to appeal to the wide market, so the onus is then put back on the player to really determine their difficulty level, so to speak.

grate to see a sensible post re AI!
I think what a lot of people dont consider when they say the AI are slow is that even if you just fit you fit the semi-racing cluth and flywheel this will make your car much faster as it allows you to shif down much quicker and thus brake much later into the corner this will be the same on the exit...

 

[eran0004]

Yeah, it seemed to me the GT5 cars were aware of the obstruction before they got to the corner. Some of them went on the grass before they got to the corner.

I did like how one of the Forza cars attempted to back up. I don't think any GT5 AI drivers will ever do that, even nose into a wall.

I think the AI in GT5 is better in cases like this, but the question is, how do they behave when you are racing door to door? Do they give you space or try to take the line?

I do like the look of incidental damage in Forza better. GT5 cars just look melty.

The AI does reverse if the path is blocked, for instance if you by accident park your tank car across the pit entrance in the Tsukuba endurance race (innocent, I swear!) the AI will try to get around, and then when they discover that they can't, they will reverse and then attempt to get you out of the way by brute force if they have to.

Agree completely - if you blow the AI away in terms of mods and HP, then yes, it can be real easy to win. If you match them or go below, then they're quite good to race against. GT needs to appeal to the wide market, so the onus is then put back on the player to really determine their difficulty level, so to speak.

A-spec racing is a lot more fun when you chose a car that will give you a bit of a challenge. I suppose it's a bit of trial and error to find a good match in the various races. I think though that it would be better to have an option to make the AI more competitive, so that if they have 500pp cars you can pick a similar car and still have a challenge. Some races are more challenging than others though, maybe the AI is better suited for certain tracks and pp ranges...

(Personally I like to pick cars that are horribly slow on the straights but fast through the corners, it gives a lot of overtaking in the race )

 

[JDMKING13]

I'v been doing a lot of a spec racing since 2.0 and I'v sead it before on the firum but the AI are better than before. take a car that is about mid way or at the lower end PP of the suggested cars make sure it has no upgrades. you must run the same tyres or a lower compound then go race. try loading the race a few times and see if you get diffrent out comes from the race.

I agree they 'can be' a bit slow but if you run on a lower tyre compound this will negate this. I ran 3 or 4 races today in the Schwarzwald League A in a stock VW golf r32 I was runnin CS and thwe AI were on SH and the racing was unbelivable close with me chasing 1st place till the last turn and the rest of the pack on my tail fighting for 2nd.
If you put all the the parts on your car and run it at the higher end of the sugested PP you will win by a country mile everytime. But a lower powerd car they will give you a fight.
like I said my last post, try quiting out after each race so that you get a fresh set of cars and AI drivers and you will have varying out copmes in the race

Agree completely - if you blow the AI away in terms of mods and HP, then yes, it can be real easy to win. If you match them or go below, then they're quite good to race against. GT needs to appeal to the wide market, so the onus is then put back on the player to really determine their difficulty level, so to speak.

grate to see a sensible post re AI!
I think what a lot of people dont consider when they say the AI are slow is that even if you just fit you fit the semi-racing cluth and flywheel this will make your car much faster as it allows you to shif down much quicker and thus brake much later into the corner this will be the same on the exit...

Exactly with AI you have to keep it realistic, make sure your car is in the same class as the others just as they do in real racing. I just don't like the people who complain about The AI being slow when they use the best tires, strip the cars weight, add more HP etc. At least run the same tires the AI is running.

 

[Samus]

Exactly with AI you have to keep it realistic, make sure your car is in the same class as the others just as they do in real racing. I just don't like the people who complain about The AI being slow when they use the best tires, strip the cars weight, add more HP etc. At least run the same tires the AI is running.

Put simply in a one on one race in the same cars the AI are far too slow. Have a go at the Ferrari F1 seasonal races and tell me you're not constantly slamming into the back of the other cars as they crawl into and out of corners.

 

[jimmywizz]

Put simply in a one on one race in the same cars the AI are far too slow. Have a go at the Ferrari F1 seasonal races and tell me you're not constantly slamming into the back of the other cars as they crawl into and out of corners.

as krioto pointed out GT5 has to appeal to a wide audiance. NOt every one is as fast/good as those of use that frequent gtplanet.
to be honest I haven't done any seasonals since 2.0. I'v been having to much fun racing in A-spec events!

 

[TheDabbinDave]

I had the same issue in Shift. It felt like you were fighting the AI rather than racing them.

NASCAR The Game has brutal AI. They plow into you as if you are not there. They are excellent at performing the PITT maneuver!

 

[kenkwilinski]

PD should hire gamers that score high in the Time Trials without cheating to run the test simulations and adapt their driving to the Ai's.

 

[leepangfu]

Exactly with AI you have to keep it realistic, make sure your car is in the same class as the others just as they do in real racing. I just don't like the people who complain about The AI being slow when they use the best tires, strip the cars weight, add more HP etc. At least run the same tires the AI is running.

I can't agree with you on this one. I need to run with considerably lower PP cars to get some sort of a race. Even then it's the same every time. I get overtaken on every straight because my car is so much slower and then I pass all of them in the following one or two corners again. The only real challenge I remember is running with stock german cars like the M5 on sport hard on Schwarzwald B Nurburgring with the AI in a SLS or R8 in first place. I lost a lot of time in the section after Karussel every time. I later found out that the AI uses Sport soft. So maybe a tip for someone who wants a race.

as krioto pointed out GT5 has to appeal to a wide audiance. NOt every one is as fast/good as those of use that frequent gtplanet.
to be honest I haven't done any seasonals since 2.0. I'v been having to much fun racing in A-spec events!

I agree with this one. That's why most games come with difficulty options.

I did enjoy the A-spec races though. I tried to get good races and that means like other people said using a worse tyre than the AI. This helps to get good races because you make up most time in the corners. Worse tyres mean you must take the corner at the same speed or slower than the AI. Also disabling ABS in some races like the Super GT worked. I spun out so many times that I needed to catch up again.

If people want a real close race in similar cars I recommend using a completely stock car in a one make race on Daytona. Look out that the AI doesn't PIT you. That happens a lot. Maybe that changed in 2.0 but I haven't tried since.

 

[greenchile505]

The best AI I have ever raced against in a driving "simulator" is GTR2 (on a PC). I could race for over an hour straight, gain two places (from my starting pos.), finish 18th and be completely satisfied with the result! Laptime gaps, between me and AI, were mostly tenths and hundredths of a second.

The only console racer I've really enjoyed, regarding competitive AI, was from the TOCA series.


Cheers.

 

[vandaliser]

Wow, forgetting the fact that the forza AI looks brain dead in that video, the other thing to notice here is the poor car models, poor inaccurate track and the high glare lighting which gives Forza it's signature cartoony look.


By the way how sweet is that Lexus LFA sound in GT5 take 1.

 

[counter345]

Again, this video could be heavily biased. Although they are the same corner, the AI could be set to EASY. It's a funny video, but shouldn't be used as an interpretation to the actual AI unless there is proof that states that it was a fair test.

 

[JDMKING13]

Again, this video could be heavily biased. Although they are the same corner, the AI could be set to EASY. It's a funny video, but shouldn't be used as an interpretation to the actual AI unless there is proof that states that it was a fair test.

My question to you is how do you know what GT5 AI is set to, everybody keeps saying FM4 AI is on easy mode, but at the same time this can be the case for GT5. I agree with your last sentence.

 

[counter345]

My question to you is how do you know what GT5 AI is set to, everybody keeps saying FM4 AI is on easy mode, but at the same time this can be the case for GT5. I agree with your last sentence.

If GT5 was set to "Easy" mode, they would go through the corner a lot slower. I tested it out, today. It's either on Medium or Hard.

 

[another_jakhole]

There's an AI aggressiveness setting now, if you find it to be a cheat, you can test it out.

Also, something interesting to note. If you drive like you're about to crash into the AI, cut the AI in corners, they try to avoid you as if they're going to be hit. On a straight, if you pretend to crash into them, they'll get out of the way as fast as possible. If you saw someone doing that in real life, wouldn't you slow down a lot to avoid a crash and to avoid that car?

Taking this into account, does FM4 have that same quality of AI? Regardless of the difficulty setting (which will affect the speed of the AI cars), the AI shouldn't act like there's nothing around them or IN FRONT of them to avoid hitting.

By the way, this isn't an excuse for slow AI going around corners. That COULD BE about the holding back intensity to 90-5% because of fear. Something that should be taken into account when tweaking AI.

 

[evilKnoxville]

@GTOne2Three
While a lot of people (which includes myself) are complaining about GT5's AI, I believe we have never seen GT5's AI from that perspective.

On the other side, dodging a fixed target might not be that difficult to code ... kind of a avoid the collision thing, but I'm glad that you have posted this.

Regarding the racing AI of GT5 I have already posted my assumptions in a different thread.

ride on,
eK

 

[Griffith500]

@GTOne2Three
While a lot of people (which includes myself) are complaining about GT5's AI, I believe we have never seen GT5's AI from that perspective.

On the other side, dodging a fixed target might not be that difficult to code ... kind of a avoid the collision thing, but I'm glad that you have posted this.

Regarding the racing AI of GT5 I have already posted my assumptions in a different thread.

ride on,
eK

It's only marginally easier than a moving target (or rather, a moving target is a trivial extension to a static one), and there's an issue of how far ahead you can look, how far to the sides and how many individual obstacles to avoid at one time, whilst also trying to find the optimal route to the destination (mobile or otherwise). So what I'm saying is, it's an exercise in balancing the sensitivity / reactivity of the system, with the need to actually get somewhere and with the computational overhead.

The fact that the cars can avoid stationary objects means they can avoid moving ones; however, we already know they're too sensitive in some instances (yield too easily) and aren't very good at getting where they're going (they're too slow )

 

[RF951]

There's an AI aggressiveness setting now, if you find it to be a cheat, you can test it out.

Also, something interesting to note. If you drive like you're about to crash into the AI, cut the AI in corners, they try to avoid you as if they're going to be hit. On a straight, if you pretend to crash into them, they'll get out of the way as fast as possible. If you saw someone doing that in real life, wouldn't you slow down a lot to avoid a crash and to avoid that car?

Taking this into account, does FM4 have that same quality of AI? Regardless of the difficulty setting (which will affect the speed of the AI cars), the AI shouldn't act like there's nothing around them or IN FRONT of them to avoid hitting.

By the way, this isn't an excuse for slow AI going around corners. That COULD BE about the holding back intensity to 90-5% because of fear. Something that should be taken into account when tweaking AI.

I've been playing FM4 for about a week now and I can tell you that they will go out of their way to make contact with you. At first I liked the AI but as you start driving faster cars their intent to kill becomes a much more serious problem. I was one of those that disliked the GT5 AI but I have a new respect for them.

 

[PirateThom]

I think the thing to note is AI path rather than the fact they avoid. If they were all statically programmed, they would all have taken the same line, but they don't meaning there is a certain degree of spacial awareness... where is the obstacle? Where are the other cars coming from? What is the best way for me to regain my line?

 

[another_jakhole]

^^^^ 👍 last two (edit - three) posters

In GT5, they always chose different paths. Well, not unless the AI was updated right after GT5 released before December. The GT5 ai debunked comparison video (posted within 2-3 weeks of GT5's release) shows that they never followed just one particular line. PirateThom explained it well.