Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[kilesa4568]

220 wins?

I'd say matchmaking was your friend, not your enemy.

 

[Downhill Dino]

THROW THE GUY TO WOLVES AND HIS POTENTIAL MAY NEVER BE KNOWN.

Assuming he doesn't take anything from the experience. You'd have to be really daft to not learn something.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Assuming he doesn't take anything from the experience. You'd have to be really daft to not learn something

Did you actually read the example that statement was made to be reference to and understand that with the two examples given for the situation it was much more likely that the statement you referenced was the result of following the path given first?

Sort of the same as winning the battle and losing the war or vise versa.
Which one of those would give you the better long term results winning that one battle or conceding one battle to win the entire war?

Sometimes one strategy is a much better option to accomplish the desired final goal than another.

 

[Downhill Dino]

I think you're just talking nonsense and don't really understand how your words actually relate to the topic. Not saying they don't, but it's just not how things work. Your example is flawed and my response tells you why. So I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to tell me above.

And I have a feeling you and a couple others have never played another game with a ranking system. All the complaints since Sport Mode's introduction reek of it.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

[QUOTE

 

[Woodybobs]

Just like the lobby shown in post #350 of this thread, was that lobby filled that way because there were not enough A ranked players online to fill their remaining grid spots or were there not enough D ranked players online to fill the top 4 spots on their grid?

If I were to guess I would say there weren't enough A drivers. If all was fair and equal the logical thing to do would be to put those A's in a lobby with B's, move some B's to a C lobby, and so on. The problem is accidents happen and, more importantly, the higher ranked players become a target. To a D driver there is little point in punting an A driver. A will just get back on and pass all the D's, even in a sprint race. It's a different story of a B driver punts an A driver though. A stands to lose a lot points, and B stands to gain a lot. Taking the opportunity away from B is probably the fairest way to do it.

 

[Outspacer]

I still think PD has two modes for the matchmaking - one produces as close-matched DR as possible, and the other produces catch-the-rabbit races (deliberately). Matchmaking chooses the latter when it considers there to be a low number of players to match, but maybe what it considers 'low' could be set too high. I say this from observing it switch between the two at the end of peak time, rather than matching slowly degrading as the number of players decreases.

So yes, the participation rate is too low a lot of the time for PD's current matchmaking methods. That's clear to see by the fact that the US has worse matching than EU even at peak times. But also, matching might be better if they didn't have two modes. Whenever we see a grid with only As and Ds, where are the Bs and Cs? There must be other lobbies being filled, possibly quite a few.

I'm not sure why they'd have two modes... aside from having a penchant for catch-the-rabbit races! Possibly they think it's better for the DR calc (which technically it might be, but as we hear it simply pushes high ranked players away from daily races)... @Woodybobs - and/or something along the lines of your thought, makes sense. edit: Also, I expect PD hoped for higher participation, and that this mode wouldn't be used very often at all.

Still, somehow it still manages to work well enough for peoples' DR to settle at fairly appropriate levels (ignoring DR resets). So if PD see Dailies as merely the way to do that before people enter FIA races then it's job done as far as they're concerned.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I think you're just talking nonsense and don't really understand how your words actually relate to the topic.

I fully understand how they relate to topic. I also do not limit myself by blocking out the entire forest looking at just a single tree!

The big picture and long term health of sport mode is what is important and understanding where the problem originates from and why is the only way you can know what needs to be fixed and come up with the best solution to alleviate the problem.

I say without doubt even the most experienced will agree the number of active racers or actually the lack of to be more precise across all the ranking levels within the online Sport Mode is the main problem affecting the filling of the daily race grids with closer matched grids as far as ranking levels rather than the extreme spread seen in many cases currently.

Looking for ways to retain players long term is the solution, from the very newest and least experienced lowest ranked all the way up and as long as the player base remains with a weak number count the problem remains.

You must give the players a reason to return and the casual players are harder to keep so you need to figure out ways that make the mode more appealing, more fun and more rewarding to get those players to come back tomorrow, next week and even next month.

That more casual gamer is not of the mindset nor is playing that playstation racing game they bought as important to them as it may be to many that frequent a forum such as this.

But to get the numbers of players that is needed to fill like grids pretty much across the board within sport mode you need those number of players that casual player based provides.

So you need to get that more casual racer hooked or addicted to sport mode racing and for that to be where he will continue to come back for more in the weeks coming not just today.

If you cannot understand that the number of players is the actual issue and understand why it is currently a problem then I am not the one in this particular conversation that fails to understand how a ranking system works or what it takes to begin to fix it to deliver better results than what we see currently.

Even options have been discussed that include giving ranking class rewards throughout a race grid finish and even that seems to be an opposed option for a solution to help retain more players and although it affects no ones game in a negative manner but yet may be well be an incentive for a low ranked to feel accomplishment with a win from within his class of racers and not really give a **** that guys 5 classes higher than him in the same race took first and second place in their respective class and the race overall.

How is that looked at as giving easy wins and should not happen as it ruins the value of a win but yet advising someone to tank their rankings to race easier opponents is considered a sporting and viable solution by some?

Also how does how many wins a player have on their profile actually affect anyone else unless they have some type of ego related issue? It doesn't.

So again who does perhaps does not understand why or how it relates to the topic at hand. I cannot lay it out any simpler for you to comprehend how it could possibly affect the game in a positive manner long term.

Currently for many for whatever reason the system is not doing well in retaining players in sport mode and that is not my opinion but directly from the stats of hoe many players have competed in less than 20 sport mode races total.

Maybe trying different things could change that trend.

 

[kjeldsen]

I fully understand how they relate to topic. I also do not limit myself by blocking out the entire forest looking at just a single tree!

The big picture and long term health of sport mode is what is important and understanding where the problem originates from and why is the only way you can know what needs to be fixed and come up with the best solution to alleviate the problem.

I say without doubt even the most experienced will agree the number of active racers or actually the lack of to be more precise across all the ranking levels within the online Sport Mode is the main problem affecting the filling of the daily race grids with closer matched grids as far as ranking levels rather than the extreme spread seen in many cases currently.

Looking for ways to retain players long term is the solution, from the very newest and least experienced lowest ranked all the way up and as long as the player base remains with a weak number count the problem remains.

You must give the players a reason to return and the casual players are harder to keep so you need to figure out ways that make the mode more appealing, more fun and more rewarding to get those players to come back tomorrow, next week and even next month.

That more casual gamer is not of the mindset nor is playing that playstation racing game they bought as important to them as it may be to many that frequent a forum such as this.

But to get the numbers of players that is needed to fill like grids pretty much across the board within sport mode you need those number of players that casual player based provides.

So you need to get that more casual racer hooked or addicted to sport mode racing and for that to be where he will continue to come back for more in the weeks coming not just today.

If you cannot understand that the number of players is the actual issue and understand why it is currently a problem then I am not the one in this particular conversation that fails to understand how a ranking system works or what it takes to begin to fix it to deliver better results than what we see currently.

Even options have been discussed that include giving ranking class rewards throughout a race grid finish and even that seems to be an opposed option for a solution to help retain more players and although it affects no ones game in a negative manner but yet may be well be an incentive for a low ranked to feel accomplishment with a win from within his class of racers and not really give a **** that guys 5 classes higher than him in the same race took first and second place in their respective class and the race overall.

How is that looked at as giving easy wins and should not happen as it ruins the value of a win but yet advising someone to tank their rankings to race easier opponents is considered a sporting and viable solution by some?

Also how does how many wins a player have on their profile actually affect anyone else unless they have some type of ego related issue? It doesn't.

So again who does perhaps does not understand why or how it relates to the topic at hand. I cannot lay it out any simpler for you to comprehend how it could possibly affect the game in a positive manner long term.

Currently for many for whatever reason the system is not doing well in retaining players in sport mode and that is not my opinion but directly from the stats of hoe many players have competed in less than 20 sport mode races total.

Maybe trying different things could change that trend.

I think that PD is caught in the same place that many players here is, in the past and without someone on their team to help them move on. GTS was a step in the right direction but they forgot about the end game (talk about a classic). This thread is an interesting look into the old ways of thinking and very few ideas on how to improve the game. I must admit that i am somewhat caught in the old ways since i just like to race, but at the same time after reading this thread and realizing just how bad a job PD is doing i think that one of my favorite game is gonna die slowly but surely.

This is one of those threads that PD should read and learn from.

 

[Downhill Dino]

If you cannot understand that the number of players is the actual issue and understand why it is currently a problem then I am not the one in this particular conversation that fails to understand how a ranking system works or what it takes to begin to fix it to deliver better results than what we see currently.

I never said otherwise.

So again who does perhaps does not understand why or how it relates to the topic at hand. I cannot lay it out any simpler for you to comprehend how it could possibly affect the game in a positive manner long term.

I think you're confused at what we're discussing, and I mean us two. I called out your post on how misguided it is and you're responding with a very fluffed up post that's going in all sorts of directions. I've pulled these two quotes out as I assume those are what's directed at solely me. It feels like you haven't actually responded to my post.

 

[the_boy]

I have 51 wins out of 330 races, it’s not all about winning. For me it’s about making replays look good.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

and the other produces catch-the-rabbit races (deliberately). Matchmaking chooses the latter when it considers there to be a low number of players to match,

Sometimes it seems that with the wide disparity on the grid it is more like the Samba Bus catch the Veyron down the main straight at Monza would be more appropriate. lol!

It feels like you haven't actually responded to my post.

If you cannot figure it out oh well!

 

[golfer07840]

I can only post for myself, but i am improving all the time as is everyone else so the goalpost is moving all the time. But at the same time i do not care about ratings except for SR, when i made an effort to improve the DR it wasn't that hard, it just takes a bit more time and you have to pick your races.. which i really find numbing compared to just racing when feel like it.

It doesn't help we only have 3 races, outside of FIA, every week now to choose from. So if you get 3 combo's you aren't comfortable with, then you can either try to do well in those and have your DR drop, or just sit out for the week or race offline.

 

[Outspacer]

Sometimes it seems that with the wide dispatity on the grid it is more like the Samba Bus catch the Veyron down the main straight at Monze would be more appropriate.

'never-gonna-catch-the-rabbit' then?!

 

[kjeldsen]

I'd love to see a grid full of D/S drivers up against 4 or 5 A/S drivers (which is what we get) but flip the grid! Have the A/S drivers start in the back.

It's a radical idea (and silly) but I'm genuinely curious. Would the A drivers just simply blow past the D drivers?

It would be a great way to mix up a grid, just for the fun.

It doesn't help we only have 3 races, outside of FIA, every week now to choose from. So if you get 3 combo's you aren't comfortable with, then you can either try to do well in those and have your DR drop, or just sit out for the week or race offline.

Yep, it is bad.

 

[Groundfish]

Is it possible GT Sports quality and participation level is so good that players of other titles are feeling effects of its release?
Even 5 percent of 5 million is a big number.
Is it possible some might be angry about lack of players in other games? Can that have something to do with a seemingly aggressive need to convince people there is a problem when there’s not?

 

[rono_thomas]

@Groundfish

The daily particpation figure is a lot less somewhere between 40,000-60,000, the figure you quoted is a total of players who have played more than 20 races, the above daily figure also contains all of the duplicate accounts that are being used to protect FIA accounts, so the long answer is no.

 

[tofuhero]

I think the OP's problem is more than that they are D/S, and there just aren't that many D/S drivers to be matched against. Most people in DR D don't seem to care that much about their SR. I have plenty of firsthand experience with this. When I started GTS it was the first serious racing I'd done in years, and I was stuck in D/S for months. I had a very similar experience to the OP -- constantly matched with drivers 1 to 3 DR ranks above me, no matter what time of day I raced. It was extremely hard to make progress. And when I did get matched with D drivers, it wasn't usually the cleanest experience, making it hard to accrue DR points.

Eventually through hard work, luck, and improving as a driver I did get out of D. But it shouldn't have to be like that. GTS's matchmaking seems to prioritize SR level first (ironic since they teach almost nothing about sportsmanship), and I'm not sure that's the best idea for the lower ranks.

 

[Krypton78]

@Outspacer
Is it possible to actually find out how many lobbys are at each timeslot?

For example, the timeslot at 8pm?

20 rooms? Or more likely 200 rooms?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The daily particpation figure is a lot less somewhere between 40,000-60,000

Also the exact number of active daily sport mode players was 39,200 and the number of active weekly sport mode players was showing to be 105,300 when I looked at kudos stats just a minute ago.

If you figure that number of players is distributed over 3 separate regions worldwide and covers players that play sport mode even if it is for only 1 race and covers all races 24 hours a day 7 days a week those numbers are really weak.

Breaking those numbers down even further if you figure trying to fill 3 race slots per hour per region (the actual race number is higher) for a full week, then take the number of active weekly sport mode players and divide it equally between the regions it works out to be 70 racers per time slot total for each race slot.

That sounds okay for 1 race but how many actual races are going off in the busier slots so those numbers of racers available for an average on a per race basis could be reduced drastically.

If you take those weekly active player numbers divided by three which would be 35,300 players and then figure that the U.S.A has a population of 300 million alone and that does not include the population of Mexico, All of South America and Canada as well that little 35,500 is a joke really it is such a paltry number!

Yep, lets stay with the premise that Sport Mode is fine as is!

Funny how when you get to looking deeper into something sometimes it is worse than what you generally thought prior to crunching the numbers.
This is the same types of things the bean counters look at when they look at when budget time rolls around as to where what departments to budget how many dollars to as well.

 

[rono_thomas]

70 racers per time slot total for each race slot.

Exactly the reason why I see the same folk in my lobbies when I finish one race and click enter the next, there is just is no one else to choose from.

 

[Woodybobs]

@VFOURMAX1 Do you (or anyone else) know if the ratio of regular online players versus total players in GTS is comparable with games from other genres? I know some games have many more online players but they also sell a lot of games. I play FPS from time to time but I have very little interest in playing them online. Secondly, within the sim racing genre how successful is GTS at getting regular online players compared to other games?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

@VFOURMAX1 Do you (or anyone else) know if the ratio of regular online players versus total players in GTS is comparable with games from other genres? I know some games have many more online players but they also sell a lot of games. I play FPS from time to time but I have very little interest in playing them online. Secondly, within the sim racing genre how successful is GTS at getting regular online players compared to other games?

I really do not have a clue and I expect that the all studios keep those numbers pretty secretive.

Just like to my knowledge Sony or PD does not actually release the numbers we get here.

I am sure there are sites like kudos that may have figured out how to get pretty reliable numbers for different games out there though.

Maybe someone with better knowledge will chime in.

 

[Outspacer]

@Outspacer
Is it possible to actually find out how many lobbys are at each timeslot?

For example, the timeslot at 8pm?

20 rooms? Or more likely 200 rooms?

I don't think there is an exact way to do it, only estimations from the stats which obviously involves a lot of assumptions. This was my stab at it in another thread:

America is the smallest region, so any problems of low player count are going to be worst there. It might be about 1/6 of the global GTS population as a whole (<1million / >5million), and we'll just have to assume that the same proportion is about right for the active players. So...

Daily players is ~40000. Divide by 6 for America: 6666. Let's say race C is what half of those focus on: 3333. Then there's people who play one or two races, and people who play all night, but at any rate that 3333 gets divided again due to playing at different times of day. If we say most of them are playing in the evening, 6pm to 12pm, do a couple of races each, and we ignore time zones, we're down to maybe 500 per race slot. My gut feeling is that's optimistic (mostly re. people playing at those times). Go pessimistic, and it might be half that - at that point, there's only a dozen races each time, and if it matches SR within 10 points that means it can't get to match on DR (or anything else), hardly at all. Away from peak times it's almost certain to get down to that number or less.

EU is probably triple those numbers, very roughly.

Time zones probably affect it quite a lot, especially for US with people clustered in UTC-5 and -8 but also for UK (being on the edge of EU region). 8PM for you is only 7PM for me, but at least most of EU population shares a time zone!

 

[W Patrick]

I think this thread does a lot to explain why racing games have been in a decline sales wise. The elitism in this thread makes me feel embarrassed to be a racing game fan.



The difference is F1 doesn’t market itself as being accessible to drivers from 7-77 like the game we are currently discussing does.

Agree! The elites don’t seem to grasp that no company will turn a profit making a game that only caters to them. There’s simply not enough of them.

 

[Winnie847]

On a more serious note merging the 80-89 and 90-99 SR lobbies would solve a lot of this. Get those 3-4 A's into top split and the 3-4 B's that currently fill those lower top split Daily spots can instead be near the top of 2nd split. I'd be surprised if merging them made any difference to the cleanliness of the lobby.

Nature of the system means most people either stay at 90+ or bounce anywhere between 40-80. Only people in 80-89 are recovering SR or newer players building it up, so it's never an active pool and gets this wide DR range.

I've read through this whole post and honestly I think this is by far the best idea that has been proposed. I have no issue with racing against 80-89 guys, heck that's me sometimes too, and that's typically where guys like me get easy wins but I'd still vote it away if given the chance.

Oh, and I'm a mid level DR.A driver, have had only 34 wins out of 399 races. That's 8%. So count your lucky matchmaking stars my friends.

 

[dabz343]

Agree! The elites don’t seem to grasp that no company will turn a profit making a game that only caters to them. There’s simply not enough of them.

Some companies understand, and some individuals here also.

 

[Groundfish]

I found a site that lists participation numbers for several games in the gt sport genre.
One listed that the average for the last six months was under 2000 players per day worldwide.
So GT Sport having more than ten times that by region is somehow bad?
I am not a gamer but looking objectively at what’s available out there it seems to me GT sport has kinda taken over.
I really don’t see where some folks here are coming from.
I literally just finished climbing from the bottom to achieve b s
I’ve literally only been below s once so far.
Seems to me it doesn’t matter as a D if you get a C beating you. Not much dr exchange there as I understand it.
I beat a lot of D as a D then I became C.
Same in C. Now I must beat those folks in order to maintain B.
Makes sense.

 

[_ApexPredator]

Agree! The elites don’t seem to grasp that no company will turn a profit making a game that only caters to them. There’s simply not enough of them.

Pretty sure everyone understands that perfectly fine.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

If I were to guess I would say there weren't enough A drivers. If all was fair and equal the logical thing to do would be to put those A's in a lobby with B's, move some B's to a C lobby, and so on. The problem is accidents happen and, more importantly, the higher ranked players become a target. To a D driver there is little point in punting an A driver. A will just get back on and pass all the D's, even in a sprint race. It's a different story of a B driver punts an A driver though. A stands to lose a lot points, and B stands to gain a lot. Taking the opportunity away from B is probably the fairest way to do it.

Question then comes back as to why would it be more fair to protect the A drivers at the added expense of the D drivers to be put at even a more distant pace gap if the situation is what actually happened which honestly I doubt but it is interesting ?

In your scenario the matching should be closest ranks matched with the closest ranks. Points or risk of loss of points would not or should not be a part of any matching scenario period.

I do wonder though how likely or what the odds would be to have a situation would be that there would be absolutely no available SR S DR B or C drivers and only SR S D ranked drivers to fill out a grid for SR S, DR A drivers.

What I have seen often used as the excuse is usually that there are so few DR D ranked drivers that also have a SR S rank for them to be matched with and that is why they find themselves in mixed lobbies so often with DR A and B racers!

And here we have 8 all in the same lobby!

I guess all the extremely rare unicorn SR S and DR D drivers of the whole region were all in that same race lobby!

I do find that particular lobby strange and hightly unusual.