Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

[05XR8]

How hard would it be to program AI onto small grids?
Maybe adding the top 10 ghost cars from each DR/SR, could help fill the grid.

 

[soundtiger95]

Never said that I said sport modes biggest failing is it being under populated, 94% of players having not played more than 20 races.

Yes you did. You literally said “The playing field is way under populated to be working fine. This is sport mode's biggest failing.” You’re saying that the matchmaking is not working properly because of the low player count. Why are you now saying you never said this? I’d also like to see where you’re getting this 94% number from, along with the evidence that the player base is low which you yet again have failed to provide.

You accused me of being pretentious Where on Earth did you get that from, what you did claim was that you didnt say that I attacked you, thats what those quotes show you did.

What are you even trying to say here? I called you pretentious because you were being pretentious on top of being arrogant. I also never claimed that I said you never attacked me. Where are you getting all of this from? Your posts just get more and more disjointed and confusing.

Nobody is expecting you to read a whole thread as Ive said many times. What is good practice is not to assume, and when you do join the conversation is to make sure you understand what it is your replying to.

Ok, you’ve got to be trolling at this point. You’ve been making a big deal about me NOT reading the thread this entire time, now you’re saying you’re not expecting me to read the thread?

I don’t need you to tell me what is and isn’t “good practice”, I’ve gotten by perfectly fine thus far. And I can guarantee you don’t practice what you preach.

Did you even read the comment I replied to yourself? If you did, you’d see it was in response to OP replying to someone giving them the advice of “adapt and practice” by calling them an embarrassment while providing no context as to why. Because I saw OP arguing with others, I pretty safely figured they just didn’t want to hear advice, especially because OP said in their main post that they weren’t looking for advice, again by not giving any context as to why. All of this could have been avoided had 1) OP made it clear from the beginning and 2) you just said what was up instead of being arrogant.

Its a bit like butting into someone’s conversation without knowing all the facts and then looking silly when you arrive at the wrong conclusions...oh wait.

And here it is again, the arrogant and pretentious attitude that you keep saying you don’t have. It’s really not cute nor does it make you come off as intelligent which is what you’re obviously trying to do at this point.

(I did notice you replied earlier on I have been reading, it is why I thought it odd that you claimed your 2nd reply was actually your 1st, but carry on...)

Again, you’ve got to be trolling. I never made this claim. Where are you getting this from?

Since matchmaking is putting players of vastly different skill levels together, I’d say the burden of proof is on you to prove there is an adequate player base for Sport Mode !

Except I’m not the one making the claim. The burden of proof lies on the person claiming something. The matchmaking system is largely based on SR with a smaller input from DR. It’s putting similarly ranked drivers by SR first and then trying to match up as closely as possible drivers by DR. There aren’t “drastic different skill levels” in the races. Going from an A to a C isn’t that huge of a jump.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

May I ask you why first off as an upper level and ranked racer why filling a grid with lower ranked racers that you will never encounter in the race is of any importance to you as far as your race is concerned?

Would filling those same basically insignificant grid spots with an AI racer rather than a lower level human racer be a satisfactory alternative in your opinion and if not could you explain why?

Not the person you're quoting, but I see it as a problem because of my DR. It makes racing so unrewarding. What would happen is that I would hotlap for the entirety of the race and gain such a miniscule amount of DR in the end that it's not worth my time. And then there's the fact that I can't trust lower ranked DR drivers. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying all of them are dirty per se, but with only having DR/SR as the basis to judge whether or not another player is clean, I'd like to play it on the safe side and not trust them, whether it be that they're actually dirty or that their braking points etc. etc. are vastly different from mine. Having a D/S behind you is the most terrifying thing that can happen to be honest. Given how the AI is just as bad in GTS, I wouldn't like that alternative either. It'd be nice if the A/A+ drivers would come back to dailies to saturate that level and keep us in the same rooms, but then that'd be hypocritical of me because I'm one of the people who quit the dailies in favor of the much better matchmaking in the FiA

 

[twitcher]

I haven’t read through the whole thread, but just going off the first page:

I disagree with the notion that drivers of various DR levels should be strictly split by DR, at the detriment of a full grid. I think the match making system should split drivers by SR, but the DR is sort of “whatever”.

To me, it doesn’t make sense that a bunch of DR-D drivers should be matched against other DR-D drivers. For one, trying to get grids of drivers who are all at similar times is extremely difficult. Look at real life racing, in all but the highest level spec series (IndyCar, Aussie Supercars, etc), qualifying times from the front of the grid to the back are usually separated by several seconds. Finding 20 people who will all lap a given circuit in a variety of cars, all within 1/2 a second of one another, is extremely rare and difficult to do.

Furthermore, what would the significance of a D rated driver beating other D rated drivers be? Is it the same as an A driver beating another A driver, or would it require a seperate calculation?

Seems to me like people are willing to accept that they’re not the fastest, but they still want to compete for race wins.

I think you also have to factor in that DR is based off of both qualifying time, and race results. If it was just split by quali times, I could see how a system could work to match people by quali times, but when race results get out in the mix, it becomes tricky. Someone might be a poor qualifier, but really consistent and clean in races, allowing them to win by more than 10-15 seconds. At the same time, you could have someone in the same race who qualifies well, but races really poorly. Seems to me if you tried to come up with a system where everyone was placed against drivers who both qualify and race at the same level, we’d only ever see a max of 3ish people in each race.

There should be strict separation by safety rating, but I have no problem with the DRs being mixed. To me, it’s more realistic, and I prefer to race against full grids.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I haven’t read through the whole thread, but just going off the first page:

I disagree with the notion that drivers of various DR levels should be strictly split by DR, at the detriment of a full grid. I think the match making system should split drivers by SR, but the DR is sort of “whatever”.

To me, it doesn’t make sense that a bunch of DR-D drivers should be matched against other DR-D drivers. For one, trying to get grids of drivers who are all at similar times is extremely difficult. Look at real life racing, in all but the highest level spec series (IndyCar, Aussie Supercars, etc), qualifying times from the front of the grid to the back are usually separated by several seconds. Finding 20 people who will all lap a given circuit in a variety of cars, all within 1/2 a second of one another, is extremely rare and difficult to do.

Furthermore, what would the significance of a D rated driver beating other D rated drivers be? Is it the same as an A driver beating another A driver, or would it require a seperate calculation?

Seems to me like people are willing to accept that they’re not the fastest, but they still want to compete for race wins.

I think you also have to factor in that DR is based off of both qualifying time, and race results. If it was just split by quali times, I could see how a system could work to match people by quali times, but when race results get out in the mix, it becomes tricky. Someone might be a poor qualifier, but really consistent and clean in races, allowing them to win by more than 10-15 seconds. At the same time, you could have someone in the same race who qualifies well, but races really poorly. Seems to me if you tried to come up with a system where everyone was placed against drivers who both qualify and race at the same level, we’d only ever see a max of 3ish people in each race.

There should be strict separation by safety rating, but I have no problem with the DRs being mixed. To , it’s more realistic, and I prefer to race against full grids.

And that, my friend, is precisely how matchmaking works. You will always be matched against >90 SR players as long as your SR is the same, with DR taking a backseat. Not exactly thrown out of the window, but just a backseat

 

[Macboyilija]

You always have aliens. You always have faster drivers. You always have average drivers. You always have slower drivers. You always have bad drivers.

Those are mostly all put together in a race in sportmode. This seems just like real life so the matchmaking is not that bad based on this notice. I do not think its fair to put all the aliens together. Driving 20th as an alien doesnt make you an alien. I do not think its fair to put all the bad drivers together. Driving 1st as a bad drivers doesnt make you a bad driver anymore. Etc for the rest.

If you see it like this: sport mode is like real life and just a perfect blend.

We just cant be all winners. We can all be whiners

 

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

The key here is player expectation and not the flawed system.

Case in point, I entered my first FIA race in about 3 months last night - the Nation's cup at Interlagos. I am DR A+ and SR S so I knew the matching would be tough. I was proven right - half of the very top players in EMEA showed up. I knew as soon as I saw the names that I didn't stand a chance in hell of winning. Did that make me think "screw this, I'm quitting"? On the contrary, I wanted to see how well I could do!

I set a quali time that was a few tenths off of what I should have achieved, but it was enough for 14th (9-10th may have been possible in an ideal world). The race started and every single driver was on point, it was thrilling. One small mistake and you knew you'd lose position. I was running well but sadly my mistake came a few laps in, running wide on the final corner and losing 3 places in the process. I set about the rest of the race and didn't make any more mistakes, putting in some decent laps and overtaking a few drivers who looked like they were on a no stop strategy. Back to 14th and was closing on the guy in front - a few more laps would have been interesting but alas, the race was over! Overall my best lap was inside 10th, happy with that!

Did I have fun? Absolutely! Could I have done better? Yep! Did it matter that I didn't win? Absolutely not! Did it matter that I was never going to win? No!

The system does what it was designed to do. It couldn't have matched this race any better. Even on an optimally matched race, only a select few were ever going to have a chance of winning. Should everybody else just quit, or should they push themselves to get as best a result as possible and have an enjoyable race in the process?

 

[kjeldsen]

You always have aliens. You always have faster drivers. You always have average drivers. You always have slower drivers. You always have bad drivers.

Those are mostly all put together in a race in sportmode. This seems just like real life so the matchmaking is not that bad based on this notice. I do not think its fair to put all the aliens together. Driving 20th as an alien doesnt make you an alien. I do not think its fair to put all the bad drivers together. Driving 1st as a bad drivers doesnt make you a bad driver anymore. Etc for the rest.

If you see it like this: sport mode is like real life and just a perfect blend.

We just cant be all winners. We can all be whiners

In real life you don't have pro drivers competing with sunday drivers. Mix the field up instead of always having very fast drivers at the front.

 

[Shottah072]

May I ask you why first off as an upper level and ranked racer why filling a grid with lower ranked racers that you will never encounter in the race is of any importance to you as far as your race is concerned?

Would filling those same basically insignificant grid spots with an AI racer rather than a lower level human racer be a satisfactory alternative in your opinion and if not could you explain why?

Really ? AI ? Sport mode is for online racing, when they will put their crappy AI in there that would be the biggest failling of the game. I cant even take that suggestion serious. I want to race against real people and i want full grids like in real life as we are trying to simulate a real racing experience.

I put many time and effort into being able to qualify and race at the front and it took years of studying and training before i could compete with the best, you think it was any different for me when i started (ranked) online racing ? You think i was not a grid filler in the back/mid pack with the aliens a couple seconds out on front who'd seem unbeatable ? I was... but i didnt cry about it, i set out to learn and improve so i could win or battle them in the future, enjoying the battles and races in the midpack in the meanwhile.

Then you come around and think its unfair because you cant win because you are slow. Thinking the blood sweat and tears that gone into my pace should be rewarded with a laughable grid size,or AI fillers even, just so that the slower guys wont have to be confronted with how much off the pace they are and can live in there comfy DR safespace where they all want to take turns winning. News flash, thats not how competition works, if you want to win you need to be faster then the rest in the lobby. If you are not, dont expect to win, you are not entiteled to win. Tons of really fast guys still dont get to win.

And those lower ranked grid spots are definetly not insignificant. Every driver in the lobby is important as they all contribute to the DR points game. The lower ranked driver may be unlikely to win the race but he can still gain allot of DR points, especially if he manage to finish in front of some higher ranked drivers. Better yet, he would probably win more points then the DR A+ driver that won the race. And that is how the system balances itself out.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Not the person you're quoting, but I see it as a problem because of my DR. It makes racing so unrewarding. What would happen is that I would hotlap for the entirety of the race and gain such a miniscule amount of DR in the end that it's not worth my time.

And those lower ranked grid spots are definetly not insignificant. Every driver in the lobby is important as they all contribute to the DR points game.

So now we have the real Elephant in the room, Whether you have lower ranked players to fill the grid does not affect the upper ranked players races as they never see those lower ranked racers within the race to begin with unless they happen to be lapping the really slow ones as they are gone.

But DR is rewarded or figured by the number of players in a room. and for every DR point that is gained by the upper ranked racers comes at the expense of loss of DR points from the lower ranked racers that never had a chance to beat those racers to begin with because as just as their lower ranks indicate they run at a lower or slower pace than the higher ranked racers.

So I guess this will be a fair description it is the same as taking candy from a baby perhaps?

Case in point, I entered my first FIA race in about 3 months last night - the Nation's cup at Interlagos. I am DR A+ and SR S so I knew the matching would be tough. I was proven right - half of the very top players in EMEA showed up. I knew as soon as I saw the names that I didn't stand a chance in hell of winning. Did that make me think "screw this, I'm quitting"? On the contrary, I wanted to see how well I could do!

So as you entered this FIA race were you were placed in a race where over half the field in the grid were a full 2 or more DR rankings higher than you?

No of course not as we all know that is not possible as you are an A+ ranked racer.

So even though you may not have been the highest or fastest ranked A+ racer in the room you were still racing against racers that were in the same DR ranking as yourself so again as a higher ranked player this is not a problem that has any effect on you at all.

It's amazed me that this has never been addressed yet in any updates. I'm talking about the terrible mismatching of rankings. For example, i've been a D-S for a long time who sometimes reaches the dizzy heights of C-S. All too often though i get both rankings pushed down. Why? Because the system thinks it is fair to match a driver who is D rated with A and S rated drivers.

The game should match drivers equally. D with D, B with B and so forth. A D-S driver should only ever be matched with a grid of other D-S drivers as should A-S drivers only be mixed with A-S drivers and the same for every other combo too. Seriously, how hard can i be to implement a fair system?! It totally puts me off racing when you know you cant make any progress.

Then you come around and think its unfair because you cant win because you are slow.

Seriously, so now you are trying to make this about me personally?

Have you forgotten the the original post that started this entire thread was about a lower ranked driver that did not think it was fair that he was always placed at the rear of the grid behind much higher DR ranked racers and ask if it was fair to lower ranked players?

And because I happen to agree with the OP and actually defend what should be the lower ranked players rights to be matched and race against equal matched players as that is what PD advertised that the matching in Sport Mode was going to be then it is now all about how slow I am.
Funny actually.

 

[Shottah072]

So now we have the real Elephant in the room, Whether you have lower ranked players to fill the grid does not affect the upper ranked players races as they never see those lower ranked racers within the race to begin with unless they happen to be lapping the really slow ones as they are gone.

But DR is rewarded or figured by the number of players in a room. and for every DR point that is gained by the upper ranked racers comes at the expense of loss of DR points from the lower ranked racers that never had a chance to beat those racers to begin with because as just as their lower ranks indicate they run at a lower or slower pace than the higher ranked racers.

So I guess this will be a fair description it is the same as taking candy from a baby perhaps?

You clearly have no clue about how the DR ranking system works...

I am gonna give up on this thread now...

 

[Alpha Cipher]

So now we have the real Elephant in the room, Whether you have lower ranked players to fill the grid does not affect the upper ranked players races as they never see those lower ranked racers within the race to begin with unless they happen to be lapping the really slow ones as they are gone.

But DR is rewarded or figured by the number of players in a room. and for every DR point that is gained by the upper ranked racers comes at the expense of loss of DR points from the lower ranked racers that never had a chance to beat those racers to begin with because as just as their lower ranks indicate they run at a lower or slower pace than the higher ranked racers.

So I guess this will be a fair description it is the same as taking candy from a baby perhaps?

That's not exactly how DR calculation works. You're halfway there, but not quite
DR calculation takes into consideration the rank difference between two players. So what happens is this: if a DR D driver loses to an A+ driver, the DR difference is so big that the A+ driver gains 1-10 DR whereas the D rank loses 1-10 DR. Yeah they still lose DR, but are you seriously going to whine about losing that much DR?

A fairer description would be taking a speck of sugar from a baby

 

[Shottah072]

Seriously, so now you are trying to make this about me personally?

Dont mean it be personal i directed it to you as you were making that point about small grids and AI but my remark is more against that point and mindset then it is against you personally.

 

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

So now we have the real Elephant in the room, Whether you have lower ranked players to fill the grid does not affect the upper ranked players races as they never see those lower ranked racers within the race to begin with unless they happen to be lapping the really slow ones as they are gone.

But DR is rewarded or figured by the number of players in a room. and for every DR point that is gained by the upper ranked racers comes at the expense of loss of DR points from the lower ranked racers that never had a chance to beat those racers to begin with because as just as their lower ranks indicate they run at a lower or slower pace than the higher ranked racers.

So I guess this will be a fair description it is the same as taking candy from a baby perhaps?



So as you entered this FIA race were you were placed in a race where over half the field in the grid were a full 2 or more DR rankings higher than you?

No of course not as we all know that is not possible as you are an A+ ranked racer.

So even though you may not have been the highest or fastest ranked A+ racer in the room you were still racing against racers that were in the same DR ranking as yourself so again as a higher ranked player this is not a problem that has any effect on you at all.






Seriously, so now you are trying to make this about me personally?

Have you forgotten the the original post that started this entire thread was about a lower ranked driver that did not think it was fair that he was always placed at the rear of the grid behind much higher DR ranked racers and ask if it was fair to lower ranked players?

And because I happen to agree with the OP and actually defend what should be the lower ranked players rights to be matched and race against equal matched players as that is what PD advertised that the matching in Sport Mode was going to be then it is now all about how slow I am.
Funny actually.

My DR in this case was completely irrelevant, you have inadvertantly missed the point or chosen to miss it. I was placed in a room in which I had no chance of winning. Did I whine about it? Nope, I relished the opportunity and it was the most fun race I have had in ages.

Your understanding of DR is also way off the mark. The guys with high DR do not take more points, they take less, especially when everyone else is below them. Nearly every race at Bathurst this week I have won a max of maybe 80 DR, when the guys below me would have been gaining 100-1000. The point of DR is that if you finish above somebody with more DR than you, you gain. This seems to be a common misconception - I've seen a number of messages in lobbies and even people quitting, saying things like "crap matchmaking how am I supposed to get DR", when actually they had a great chance to gain DR!

 

[kjeldsen]

You clearly have no clue about how the DR ranking system works...

I am gonna give up on this thread now...

That's not exactly how DR calculation works. You're halfway there, but not quite
DR calculation takes into consideration the rank difference between two players. So what happens is this: if a DR D driver loses to an A+ driver, the DR difference is so big that the A+ driver gains 1-10 DR whereas the D rank loses 1-10 DR. Yeah they still lose DR, but are you seriously going to whine about losing that much DR?

A fairer description would be taking a speck of sugar from a baby

This thread is sadly a typical example of how these things often goes on this forum, and here are two examples of how to respond to a post.

Aggressive attitude vs proper post that brings knowledge and fact to a thread that needs it.

This is an interesting and very important discussion, because it has many sides to it and it is important because we need more players in GT-Sport.

As any game designer will tell you, the feeling of progression (new loot, adventures etc) is important when you want people to keep playing, most here would play almost anything as long as it gives you that driving feeling that GT games typically does. I am at 333 races with 10 wins, and i am way way faster than many of the people that i race, and incredible slow compared to many many players. The difference between me and many of the typical console players is that i do really not care that much about my end position/rating etc, i care about the car in front of me, and behind me, those are the racers i see in the game. BUT the typical console players are those that the game needs to provide fun to, they need to experience the chance of winning, they need to race against someone their "size". At least one of the Weekly races should be made in such a fashion that it was 100% aimed at providing tight racing, smaller field, mixed SR rating, whatever it takes. Relaxed track limits, heavy ghosting more credits for lower places.

And there there is the discussion about how fair it is to put S/A+ drivers against slow drivers, comparison to Pro vs Sunday drivers is valid. Unlike the real world, the main difference between GTS drivers is skill and not the car. I don't understand why they don't mix it up some more.

 

[Shottah072]

Aggressive attitude vs proper post that brings knowledge and fact to a thread that needs it.

Well sorry but i get a little fed up being talked to like its my fault, that i dont care if i am racing lower ranked drivers, like i am being accused of taking candy from a baby, that i should not feel good about accomplishing stuff because the competition is not on my level while i work hard to maintain that level. And people making claims about how fair or not stuff is while they dont understand the system at all.

So sorry if i got a little heated, didnt mean to do so.

I am at the track right now enjoying some real racing from the stands. I'll go enjoy that now and leave this for what it is right now.

 

[seandimes]

I feel that we are discussing different issues here, that are not necessarily correlated:

- Should drivers with the same SR, but different DR be matched together?

- How motivating is Sportsmode for the average driver, and

- Is all of this related to the count of online players being so low?


Starting with the last point, you have to realize that the number of online players, compared to the number of total players, are low in pretty much every game that isnt inherently focused on online play. I play a number of different sports games, and if you look at their trophies, a vast majority never or just briefly touched the online modus. The only games where that is not the case are the ones that are inherently multiplayer games. I think PD did a good job with focusing on the online part with GT Sports, but having the majority of players playing the online part of the game was never going to be the case in the first place.

To answer the question how motivating Sports mode is for the average driver, I think we have to realize that there are mainly 3 groups that play GT Sports:

- The racing game veterans: This is the group I think that makes for a huge part of the people that still play the game. They may have issues with the game, but they like it enough to stll keep playing.
- Players that are new to online racing, but like it enough to keep playing: I think this is the group that actually gets affected by mixing different DRs together. Although I am not completely new to online racing games, I count myself towards that group. And yes, in the beginning it can be incredibly frustrating if you are a D/S driver and just know you wont win a race any time soon, cause you always get some B/S drivers in front.
- The average gamer: I dont think this group is relevant to the discussion at all. They will pick up a game they like, in this case GT, play it for a month or two max, and move on to the next game. PD was never able to retain these players longterm in the first place, except a small part that gets hooked and moves on to the group above.

Now on to the actual question, should drivers of different DR be matched together. I think we all agree, in an ideal world, they shouldnt. From what we can gather from the matchmaking, it prioritizes SR first, then having full lobbies, and DR factors in after that.
I still think that is the right way to prioritize matchmaking. Having mostly clean online races it what sets GT apart from its competition. If knowing that you never will win a race with your current time demotivates you, prioritizing SR first, then DR, then full lobbies, only delays a problem you will encounter anyways.
Lets say you are an SR:S , DR: C or D driver. Matching you together with other drivers of the same DR will give you a better shot at winning races, thats true. But as soon as you move on to higher DR, you will encounter the same problem you would have with the old system anyways.
Taking myself as an example, I am SR:S 99, DR: B. I am a very average driver. I can win races constantly win races in SR and C, and be constantly in the top 3-5 in SR A,B and low SR:S. As soon as I moved to SR:S 99, DR:B, I knew again I would never win a race there without improving.

So matching players closer together in DR, with SR being the same, isnt actually a solution to the problem discussed, it just moves the point where you cant win without improving a bit further along.
This mainly affects the second group, players that are not very good yet, but willing to improve. Racing game veterans know where they stand anyways, and the average gamer doesnt matter here, cause they either play mainly offline, or are about to move on to the next game anyways.


One solution that could work, in my opinion, would be to match players by SR first, and by qualifying time second. There would have to be a solution for sandbagging your qualifying time, but i think that is possible. For example if your fastest race lap is faster than your qualifying lap, this will be taken for matchmaking instead.
It would keep the focus on clean races, which is important, but would also promote more close races, with players with similar time being matched together.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

One solution that could work, in my opinion, would be to match players by SR first, and by qualifying time second. There would have to be a solution for sandbagging your qualifying time, but i think that is possible. For example if your fastest race lap is faster than your qualifying lap, this will be taken for matchmaking instead.
It would keep the focus on clean races, which is important, but would also promote more close races, with players with similar time being matched together.

The problem though is you may use the slipstream to achieve a faster lap than you can on your own, which would make matchmaking difficult. Not to mention this may only apply to the front field where there is almost no battles going on. I agree that you may factor qualifying before DR, but I don't see the point in sandbagging your laptime. What would happen with this new system is probably that there will still be big gaps in qualifying times like we do now, but it would at least be a smaller gap. Sandbagging your laptimes will just be like sandbagging your DR, as long as you're in SR S you'll still be probably matched against the same people, except maybe for the higher chance that you won't

 

[seandimes]

Thats a good point. I have a couple of people in my friendlist who keep their sr and dr down to d level for easy wins, but its probably not worth it to adjust the matchmaking for them, since there will always be a way to game the system

 

[rono_thomas]

Yes you did. You literally said “The playing field is way under populated to be working fine. This is sport mode's biggest failing.” You’re saying that the matchmaking is not working properly because of the low player count. Why are you now saying you never said this? I’d also like to see where you’re getting this 94% number from, along with the evidence that the player base is low which you yet again have failed to provide.

That quote was in reply to the example you provided,

Uhhhh.....yes? I don’t see anything there that would say otherwise. They use both but heavily take into account SR for the sake of clean racing, but most races will have the majority of people within one or two ranks of each other. If you have a race with two A’s, four B’s, three C’s, and one E, and everyone has an SR of S or A, which is what I’ve primarily seen, the system seems to be working fine to me

Even in your example the disparity in DR does not show the working system working as PD have said it would (Evidence provided previously in thread)

Here are the proof for the figures here and here

What are you even trying to say here? I called you pretentious because you were being pretentious on top of being arrogant. I also never claimed that I said you never attacked me. Where are you getting all of this from? Your posts just get more and more disjointed and confusing.

and you wrote this demanding that I show you evidence whereby you are being pretentious even though I never accused you of it.

I’m still waiting to see where my pretentious attitude is. These comments aren’t showing it at all. Again, back up your claims with evidence.

As I explained, you called me pretentious as you agreed to above and then asked me to provide evidence where I called you pretentious? My posts are disjointed and confusing? What I did say was that you accused me of attacking you, that's what those quotes showed you did.

Ok, you’ve got to be trolling at this point. You’ve been making a big deal about me NOT reading the thread this entire time, now you’re saying you’re not expecting me to read the thread?

I made a big deal? I said you looked silly wading in with big boots to a conversation you didn't have all the facts, to which you replied I have read the entire thread what are you on about. I didn't explain myself very well in the post above granted, so I don't expect you to read all the thread, the arrows in reply boxes will link you back to previous conversations thus eliminating a lot of unconnected conversation.

Again, you’ve got to be trolling. I never made this claim. Where are you getting this from?

So you post #117 claimed that you had made one post in this thread,

So all of my entire one comment in this thread on the topic is making me look silly? I’d love to know how. I’d also like to see an example of me reading the thread out of context. OP has a problem with how racers are sorted and matched in the game. The reason it’s this way is because PD wants to keep clean racers with clean racers and dirty racers with other dirty racers, but OP doesn’t want to hear this and instead just wants everything catered to their needs. That’s not how things work though.

not true you actually made two previous comments on topic, post #114 and post #89

Matchmaking seems to be determined by SR rating, I’m surprised more people aren’t mentioning that. OP, I can understand your frustration, but a system that sorts by driver rating instead of SR would be a disaster for people who want their races to be as clean as possible. I get that it can be frustrating to not finish toward the front and have to struggle to move up in the field, but be thankful you don’t have to deal with the dirtiness as much as you would have to with a lower SR. Someone with an S SR has a lot more respect from me than someone who’s rated an A or S and has an SR of B or C.

No offense, but you’re coming off as if you want the game to adapt just for you instead of you adapting to the game and improving, and criticizing others who are giving advice like this isn’t right. A lot of people have been wanting a place for clean racing, and PD has at least attempted to do that with the SR rating and sorting based on it.

Not trolling at all facts.

I'm no longer willing to hold your hand walking you through what you haven't and have said. So I'm not going to reply to anymore unless its on topic, (Apologies to everyone else reading). If you would like to continue this conversation take it to a PM.​

 

[VFOURMAX1]

You clearly have no clue about how the DR ranking system works...

That's not exactly how DR calculation works. You're halfway there, but not quite
DR calculation takes into consideration the rank difference between two players.

Your understanding of DR is also way off the mark. The guys with high DR do not take more points, they take less, especially when everyone else is below them.

I do understand how the Dr system works and I also fully understand that higher ranked players gain less DR by beating lower ranked players but I also understand that when an A+ racer is capable of running a lap pace several seconds a lap quicker than a lower ranked player that unless the A+ racer screws up royally then even though they may gain fewer points off the low ranked driver that they will be guaranteed points as the lower ranked driver is not capable of out racing them.

Again for DR points to be awarded you have to finish in front of the driver that you are getting the points from, finishing behind a driver awards no points from that racer.

How many true DR D ranked drivers are turning faster lap times with more consistency than the A+ drivers? That really was a stupid question wasn't it just like trying to justify a D ranked racer should even be on the same grid with the A ranked guys.

So that makes a really fair system for that low ranked driver to gain a lot of points by finishing at the back half of the field right?

To me, it doesn’t make sense that a bunch of DR-D drivers should be matched against other DR-D drivers.

And why does that not make sense as the game advertised matching with equal opponents?

Is an average A ranked driver an equal opponent on the track as far as skill set or lap pace or usually experience when compared to the average D ranked racer?

Does the average D ranked racer really stand a snowballs chance in hell of winning a race against the average A ranked player?

Furthermore, what would the significance of a D rated driver beating other D rated drivers be? Is it the same as an A driver beating another A driver, or would it require a seperate calculation?

Regardless of the points calculations the D ranked driver beating another D ranked driver is just as much an accomplishment to him as it is for an A ranked driver beating another A ranked driver and that D ranked driver works just as hard using the skills he has at his disposal as that A rank driver does when he wins.

Also in many cases that the argument that racing against faster racers makes a racer faster as they learn that may be true when the faster racer is a little faster that the slower guy can follow and learn from as far as lines and braking later.

Usually you will find the guy that is just a little faster that you may actually be able to stay close enough to actually learn something is going to be a little higher ranked player within your same ranking level, not several rankings higher!

But that same learning something argument is a wasted joke or unjustified excuse when the faster racers are gone to not be seen again for the rest of the race after the first four corners as there is nothing to learn from racers 15 seconds ahead on the track somewhere as is a common occurrence when the racers are several ranks higher and turning lap tine several seconds faster than the lower ranked guys.

Look at real life racing, in all but the highest level spec series (IndyCar, Aussie Supercars, etc), qualifying times from the front of the grid to the back are usually separated by several seconds.

Yes, lets look at real life racing for a comparison, in real life racing most racing is divided into different series or divisions that the drivers advance through.

In GTS the DR ranks are very much like divisions with the E class being a low level club racing, the D class being a faster club racing and say the A+ class being the pro big boys or top echelon class such as the F1 class of GTS and the C and B class being in between those two more of the lower level or beginning divisions of actual series racing .

Now in real life you will not see Hamilton and the Sunday club racer being matched and placed on the same grid so why should GTS be any different?

In real life racing a driver moves up to racing against the faster racers by advancing to the next highest division in a race series or going into higher series where he then competes against the faster drivers within that series.

But to be on the grid and racing against the best of the best such as a Hamilton or a Vettle then he would need to be racing in the F1 class and unless he was in that class would not be racing against them.

This is pretty much how things work in every real life series out there, why should it be any different in GTS if we are trying to have the game mimic real world racing and it seems by some of the responses that many think they actually doing more than playing a game?

Show me where in real life that a casual weekend warrior club racer is placed on the same grid in a Moto GP race with Valentino Rossi and then maybe you can justify why a casual D ranked racer should be matched against and racing the A+ guys in the game as apparently trying to use real racing it seems to be the next attempt to deem justification for the unequal matching within the game to be okay as that is the way it works in the real world according to some.

Do that and then maybe we can justify why Lebowski who started this thread and is a D ranked driver should be okay and wanting to be matched against, Shotta072, IAMDOODLEBUG and Alpha Cipher all whom are at least A ranked racers and have responded in this thread with responses that is legitimate for him to be in the same grid as they are after all we are racing here.

I put many time and effort into being able to qualify and race at the front and it took years of studying and training before i could compete with the best

Well I guess maybe we should get PD to put on their game packaging unless you a serious player want to spend years "gettin gud" then Sport Mode is not for you if you want to race and be matched against equal players and actually frequently be put into races where you may win a race.

This is what many that take this game so seriously fail to comprehend that most people that buy and play games are not serious players and have absolutely no desire to spend"years studying and training" to play a video game as games are just not one of their major priorities in life.

Many players do not care to be at the top of the rankings or be one of the best, the game is a diversion or get away for a short while from the real world and whatever pace they may have is fine if they are having fun.

It is a computer game after all, it really is not real racing and trying to sell enough games for the game maker to stay in business they are much better off making the game fun for the weekend warrior.

Believe it or not the mindset shown by many on this subject is not what the mainstream desires, do not believe me is fine, just look at how many game accounts are active on GTS and then look at the numbers playing Sport Mode and that shows that Sport Mode as is is not popular with most players.

I would be willing to bet not having a fair chance of winning a race is one of the main issues that you would find when dealing with a casual nothing to do because it is raining and nothing is on tv type of racer .

You have to remember those that post on these forums are the minority by a long shot in numbers as far as players of the game are concerned.

But the bottom line still remains after all the BS the game advertised and promised matching with equal players and the game is not delivering on what it advertised and yes a D ranked player has a legitimate gripe to be being placed in races with A+, A and B ranked players at a minimum.

That player is not getting the experience he bought and paid for.

 

[rono_thomas]

Matches the same level of skill and Sportmanship together.

Does GTS do that?

 

[mthomas_95]

Matches the same level of skill and Sportmanship together.

Does GTS do that?

It does in the FIA races which is what a lot of people are currently concentrating on. The lack of A/A+ in Dailies is because people would rather practice the upcoming FIA race.

That's why the Daily lobbies you now get 'grid fillers' as their isn't enough A's to fill a lobby. Lower DR drivers can still definitely learn from the top guys in the lobby by looking at the replay afterwards if they drop too far back to look at lines/shift points/racecraft.

So what to the D drivers want to be? 'Grid fillers' in clean races or have the SR to expand for their lobbies so they end up having dirty races with other DR D drivers. That's the harsh reality if you're 'happy' being at D pace.

 

[AUTISTICBOYX]

Really ? AI ? Sport mode is for online racing, when they will put their crappy AI in there that would be the biggest failling of the game. I cant even take that suggestion serious. I want to race against real people and i want full grids like in real life as we are trying to simulate a real racing experience.

I put many time and effort into being able to qualify and race at the front and it took years of studying and training before i could compete with the best, you think it was any different for me when i started (ranked) online racing ? You think i was not a grid filler in the back/mid pack with the aliens a couple seconds out on front who'd seem unbeatable ? I was... but i didnt cry about it, i set out to learn and improve so i could win or battle them in the future, enjoying the battles and races in the midpack in the meanwhile.

Then you come around and think its unfair because you cant win because you are slow. Thinking the blood sweat and tears that gone into my pace should be rewarded with a laughable grid size,or AI fillers even, just so that the slower guys wont have to be confronted with how much off the pace they are and can live in there comfy DR safespace where they all want to take turns winning. News flash, thats not how competition works, if you want to win you need to be faster then the rest in the lobby. If you are not, dont expect to win, you are not entiteled to win. Tons of really fast guys still dont get to win.

And those lower ranked grid spots are definetly not insignificant. Every driver in the lobby is important as they all contribute to the DR points game. The lower ranked driver may be unlikely to win the race but he can still gain allot of DR points, especially if he manage to finish in front of some higher ranked drivers. Better yet, he would probably win more points then the DR A+ driver that won the race. And that is how the system balances itself out.

You encapsulated the issue well. People being entitled up their ears, wanting everything catered to them and can't see the forest for the trees. This is not how the world works though. A game with a nod to hardcore competition is no different. And this is the beauty of GTS, they are not lowering the standards just to satisfy the masses, they do it oldschool - improve or self-wallow about your medioctity, and i embrace that with my whole heart. If people want super mario on easy level, there are other games for that. Stop devaluing GTS.

 

[Krypton78]

Here a clarification how DR System works at an example with a lobby with only 4 players to simplyfie it. I once posted this already sometime before:

DR before the race:
Player A = 25.000
Player B = 24.000
Player C = 23.000
Player D = 22.000

So everyone is obviously a DR/B Driver in this example. But this doesn't matter.

Position Result of the race:
P1 = Player C
P2 = Player A
P3 = Player B
P4 = Player D

Calculation of DR after race:
Formula: (DRloser - DRwinner) / 500 + 80

Calculation for Player A by pairing with each of the other players:
Pairing A and B = (DRB-DRA/500)+80= (24000-25000)/500+80=78, means A gets +78 and B gets -78 from pairing with each other
Pairing A and C = (DRA-DRC/500)+80= (25000-23000)/500+80=84, means A gets -84 and C gets +84 from pairing with each other
Pairing A and D = (DRD-DRA/500)+80= (22000-25000)/500+80=74, means A gets +74 and D gets -74 from pairing with each other

Calculation for Player B by pairing with each of the other players:
Pairing B and A = look up
Pairing B and C = (DRB-DRC/500)+80= (24000-23000)/500+80=82, means B gets -82 and C gets +82 from pairing with each other
Pairing B and D = (DRD-DRB/500)+80= (22000-24000)/500+80=76, means B gets +76 and D gets -76 from pairing with each other

Calculation for Player C by pairing with each of the other players:
Pairing C and A = look up
Pairing C and B = look up
Pairing C and D = (DRD-DRC/500)+80= (22000-23000)/500+80=78, means C gets +78 and D gets -78 from pairing with each other

Calculation for Player D by pairing with each of the other players:
Pairing D and A = look up
Pairing D and B = look up
Pairing D and C = look up

DR- Result:
Player A: 25.000 + 78- 84+ 74 = 25.068 = Gain of +68 in race
Player B: 24.000 + -78- 82+ 76 = 23.916 = Lose of -84 in race
Player C: 23.000 + 84+ 82+78 = 23.244 = Gain of +244 in race
Player D: 22.000 + -74- 76- 78 = 21.772 = Lose of -228 in race

That means, a DR/D will give only tiny points to a DR/A driver by finishing behind him and win a lot points when finishing in front of him, but a DR/A loses massive points if he finishes behind a DR/D driver and gain almost nothing when winning him.

Just for remembering the DR range:
DR/D = 0 - 5000
DR/C = 5000 - 10.000
DR/B = 10.000 - 30.000
DR/A = 30.000 - 50.000
DR/A+ = 50.000 - 75.000

 

[IAMDOODLEBUG]

While I don't agree the system is flawed, I do think the Devs could do much better in incentivising players. If anybody has played Driveclub, the social side of that game is amazing. Throughout races there are many ways to earn points and beat other players - simple things such as average speed through a sequence, split time, top speed etc make a huge difference. If GTS adopted something similar I think it would add a good reason for players to keep playing Sport Mode.

Aside from the above examples, it could award instant DR or multipliers for a clean overtake, a personal lap or split record, a clean lap, clean race, gaining places.... The list could go on!

 

[rono_thomas]

It does in the FIA races which is what a lot of people are currently concentrating on. The lack of A/A+ in Dailies is because people would rather practice the upcoming FIA race.

That's why the Daily lobbies you now get 'grid fillers' as their isn't enough A's to fill a lobby. Lower DR drivers can still definitely learn from the top guys in the lobby by looking at the replay afterwards if they drop too far back to look at lines/shift points/racecraft.

So what to the D drivers want to be? 'Grid fillers' in clean races or have the SR to expand for their lobbies so they end up having dirty races with other DR D drivers. That's the harsh reality if you're 'happy' being at D pace.

Ok so why cant A be matched with A? B with B? C with C? D with D? For me its simple not enough players at differential DR ratings, does that mean the casual is going to continue playing GTS? Does PD want the casual to continue? Yes of course they do.

So PD need to understand what it is that is putting so many players off. This mismatched DR for whatever reason, could very well be one of many.

And should not be so easily and readily dismissed.

You encapsulated the issue well. People being entitled up their ears, wanting everything catered to them and can't see the forest for the trees. This is not how the world works though. A game with a nod to hardcore competition is no different. And this is the beauty of GTS, they are not lowering the standards just to satisfy the masses, they do it oldschool - improve or self-wallow about your medioctity, and i embrace that with my whole heart. If people want super mario on easy level, there are other games for that. Stop devaluing GTS.

General sport mode is not hardcore competition.

PD has tried to make Sport Mode accessible to all, talking about achieving that is not devaluing GTS.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

It does in the FIA races which is what a lot of people are currently concentrating on. The lack of A/A+ in Dailies is because people would rather practice the upcoming FIA race.

That's why the Daily lobbies you now get 'grid fillers' as their isn't enough A's to fill a lobby

I am a mid level DR B driver SR S (99) and this is a natural pace for myself and I am content with the game placing me in that classification, it is where I belong pace wise within the game. I have been at this rating for quite a long period of time.

But the mixing of the lobbies with A+ (What used to be S) and A DR rankings in with the lower ranks has been an ongoing thing since the start of sport mode not long after launch not just since the FIA stuff became a priority.

Actually over the last months as racers are "protecting" their high ranking numbers for FIA competitions many are running on alternate accounts so the ranking values are not at all an accurate representative of what a drivers skill level may actually be.

Grid filling lobbies that include A+ and A ranked players with lower ranked players has been an issue all along, not just recently in the N.A. regions anyway.

Lower DR drivers can still definitely learn from the top guys in the lobby by looking at the replay afterwards if they drop too far back to look at lines/shift points/racecraft.

But see this is where the differences come in, there are serious players that want to gain every 10th they can that will spend hours pouring over videos and watching the top guys.

But then there are just average gamers that are happy with whatever pace they run, they do not care about being faster or being the pointed end of the spear. They just want to race and have fun.

It has been well documented within this thread multiple times that PD advertised this game to allow ALL RACERS to race against equal competition against both skill and sportsmanship.

The game has not delivered the product it advertised.

But when people post on this forum wanting that aspect of the game that they bought and paid for the response is get better, go faster, study replays, practice for years.

This is not the answer, filling grids for faster players that do not have the numbers to fill their own grids is not the responsibility of the lower level and slower paced drivers.

But it is not wrong for them to want to play the game as it was advertised which was fair equal competition.

DR rankings actually mean nothing in the grand scheme of things as I see it currently, maybe an ego deal but for who you may be racing it does not mean squat so why even have a DR ranking to begin with?

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I do understand how the Dr system works and I also fully understand that higher ranked players gain less DR by beating lower ranked players but I also understand that when an A+ racer is capable of running a lap pace several seconds a lap quicker than a lower ranked player that unless the A+ racer screws up royally then even though they may gain fewer points off the low ranked driver that they will be guaranteed points as the lower ranked driver is not capable of out racing them.

Again for DR points to be awarded you have to finish in front of the driver that you are getting the points from, finishing behind a driver awards no points from that racer.

How many true DR D ranked drivers are turning faster lap times with more consistency than the A+ drivers? That really was a stupid question wasn't it just like trying to justify a D ranked racer should even be on the same grid with the A ranked guys.

So that makes a really fair system for that low ranked driver to gain a lot of points by finishing at the back half of the field right?

This statement is only true if the whole grid is A+ then there's one D driver. This isn't the case now, is it? The D driver may still finish in the front field- maybe 5th at worst if there's 4 A+. So, if you're finishing at the back half of the field I think you need to look at your skills first than blaming the matchmaking

Well I guess maybe we should get PD to put on their game packaging unless you a serious player want to spend years "gettin gud" then Sport Mode is not for you if you want to race and be matched against equal players and actually frequently be put into races where you may win a race.

Ya know, honestly I'm all good for this. They seriously messed it up when their intro said "Driving is for everyone". News flash it's not. Well, at least Sport mode is if it's just going to devolve into players whining why they can't win when they haven't put the effort in

If many players don't care to be at the top or at the best they wouldn't be complaining about matchmaking

Ok so why cant A be matched with A? B with B? C with C? D with D? For me its simple not enough players at differential DR ratings, does that mean the casual is going to continue playing GTS? Does PD want the casual to continue? Yes of course they do.

So PD need to understand what it is that is putting so many players off. This mismatched DR for whatever reason, could very well be one of many.

And should not be so easily and readily dismissed.

uhh, because if they do, they'll need to expand

the SR for their lobbies so they end up having dirty races with other DR D drivers. That's the harsh reality if you're 'happy' being at D pace.

 

[Azerach]

View attachment 760308

Matches the same level of skill and Sportmanship together.

Does GTS do that?

Yes.