Sport modes biggest failing for the slow to average driver.

  • Thread starter Lebowski
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I am not the one that earlier within the thread made comments about its not the win that's of any significance, its the sporting performance.
My remark was in direct response as I do not see where having racers in the same grid at 5 levels lower than the top racers in that grid would actually be classed as sporting for the upper ranked racers, more along the lines of shooting fish in a barrel maybe but surely not sporting would be how I would classify it.
You're not listening. No one wants to race in races where the skill gap is so large.
But we also don't want matchmaking queues of 20+ minutes and/or tiny grids either. There's a compromise to be had, and yes as is often the case it's sadly not ideal.

If you as an A+ ranked racer honestly feels like that racing and beating D ranked players is sporting I feel for your sense of what you consider sporting within Sport Mode races.
I've already told you that most higher rated drivers rarely even enter the dailies precisely because they're often full of lower ranked drivers.
It's completely the opposite of this bizarre tirade you've embarked upon.

So for the last time; I'm quite sure that nearly all of the >A racers would rather race against other >A racers, the same as every other class.
If you're at a low level and you're being matched with high ranked drivers, I agree it's going to be pretty tough to get a win (*I'm not talking about YOU specifically @VFOURMAX1 , like I wasn't the first time*). The truth is though it's pretty hard to get a win whatever rank you are and it won't happen without some effort.
Personally I always rather enjoyed being in lobbies with some higher rated drivers than me, you have a great opportunity to outperform and/or capitalise on any mistakes they may make; I really don't think there's any massive flaw to the game's matchmaking.
 
OMG... I gave up when trophies became part of the discussion.
If online make believe trophies are what folks are protecting, it's no wonder this thread is in the crapper.
Good God people.

How hard is it to acknowledge PD marketed even matchmaking among varying skill sets and sportsmanship behaviors ...
And that is not what is happening.
Dr.A racing Dr.D.
Totally game-able Sr tanking to then get easy wins.
It's really that simple.
It's broke.

And then top players thinking everyone wants a ticket to the A+ rank... you have so missed the point that... I throw my hands up.
They are so self indulgent they cannot stand to see lesser skilled players compete in a fair environment...
Virtual world tough guys.
You'll all go far in life with that fostering and encouraging mindset... a true "community" attitude.

I'm out.
Enjoy.
 
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Of course the matchmaking algorithm and the ranking system isn't perfect as its built on compromises as any other ladder system and prone to a volatile state as it relies on many variables. More variables inherently means more complex and inextricable conundrum to solve. Like people have mentioned, its an acceptable trade-off what we've got.

Is the system perfect? Again, no its not. But which is? It can definitely be refined though by appeasing both camps.
 
Look, maybe there’s something to be said about your point about PD dangling the 100 wins in front of people.

Think of this. If there were a platinum trophy that said “win an FIA esports championship”, or “win GT acadamy”, something like that....would you lose any sleep over not being able to get it? Personally, I’d take one look at that trophy and say, “so ya, that’ll never happen,” and basically never give it a second thought - and I don’t think I’d be alone in this way of thinking.

The 100 wins though, at first glance, that seems much more achievable, seems like a platinum trophy that should be relatively easy to knock off. Maybe PD could have said 1000 wins, and then most casual players like ourselves would like at it, laugh, and move on. So maybe, for whatever reason, 100 is too tempting, or something.

At the same time though, some of management of the expectation of earning those 100 wins falls back on us, and maybe there’s a large portion of gamers out there (people like myself who grew up playing GT, starting last and finishing 1st in every race) who don’t have enough “respect” or appreciation for what it takes to get 100 wins against real opponents.

Here’s my kudos stats
http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=6732576#dr

I’ve only been playing for a month and a bit, but in 88 races, I have 7 wins, 2 poles, and 9 fastest laps. Just the achievement for wins alone, at the rate I’m going, it’s going to take me 1257 races to get 100 wins :(. I get bored AF after 2 laps of qualifying, so that ones going to take probably 10x as long (yes I know if I work on quali my race results will improve).

The point is though, while I don’t consider myself fast by any means, I do know a thing or two about racing, and more often than not, I finish higher than I started. For me, that’s a win. If I can manage to finish higher than I started, or if I get punted in T1 manage to recover to where I started, or hold off a faster driver who dropped back early in the race - to me, those are all wins. A podium, that’s a win. And doing any of those, while having a clean race, double win!

Sure the game doesn’t track a lot of those stats, but my approach is, who cares! Perhaps it would be nice if it did actually. If there was a +/- stat, or a “clean overtake” stat, I’d be for that (and my stats would be pretty damn good :P). So maybe the game could do a better job at tracking a wider variety of stats, because at the end of the day, there’s a hell of a lot more to being a complete racing driver than literally some “if you ain’t first, ur last” type of thinking :lol:



To relate some things back to our mmo experiences (and I know you’ll relate or at least be aware of this).

Look at the number of times the arguement, “the ranking system, and the inability for low ranked players to earn wins, is a major turn off for casual players, and thus a major part of the reason Sport mode hasn’t been as popular as it could/should be”.

So like I said before, on one hand, players can blame the system for poor match making and making wins too difficult, or they can manage their expectations, and be truely honest and humble about their abilities (let’s face it, we all like to be humble and say we’re slow, but deep down, we all still think we should be faster than the next guy). My point here is that, in a way, people’s unrealistic expectations of what it takes to earn wins online against a full grid of real opponents basically ruined the gaming experience for them.

Now, to relate it to the MMOs. How many people did you meet in your MMO days who basically ruined their own gaming experience by failing to manage their expectations (with the additional point being that this failure to manage expectations in the game actually leads a lot of people to then fail to manage their real lives...hence “the game is ruining my life”....been there, done that, I know from experience).

It doesn’t matter if it’s chasing that elite title that only 0.01% of players earn, or staying up to date with the latest arena gear, or even keeping up to date with the latest dps meta after a patch to make sure your pew pew deeps is l33t - it’s not any different from assuming you can jump into online racing an win 100 (or 1000, whatever number you want to pick) races just like that. And if I let the desire, the “want”, to achieve those things ultimately ruin the gaming experience for me, well, I’m the one who loses.


As far as your point about putting in your best effort in qualifying, only to end up 12th on the grid, and that being de-motivating. In WoW, ever had an experience that would akin to, your in a city going to town on a target dummy, testing you deeps. You just finished collecting the last piece of a set you needed, got everything upgraded or whatever, you go to the dummy, kill it, see some decent numbers pop up, you’re feeling pretty proud of yourself. Then someone wearing a goofy clown costume or something walks up to the dummy next to you and basically 1-shots the thing (and they’re a jumper, 🤬 I hate jumpers!). Now you’re standing their holding your limp sword, thinking “wtf was that??? What am I doing wrong”. Or some experience along those lines. Do you let that demotivate you, or to you flip the script on the situation and let it become your motivation to improve (while still staying grounded in regards to things like the pace of your improvement).

Like, when you were parading around with your max level gear and rare title, when some noob would walk up and start circling around you, checking out your gear and title, then going on google to see how to get them.....and then getting smacked in the face by the realty check of, “oh damn, that’s a ton of work”...is that motivating, or demotiving for them? I think only they can decide, for themselves.
What can I say? I have to agree, I just have this mental issue about collecting achievements in videogames for completion's sake. Honestly, starting 14th and ending the race 5th, with the game telling me "you improved your position a lot, great race!" feels indeed like a win, taken by itself. Believe it or not, some time ago I was A/S (or something up there, can't recall perfectly...B/S maybe) because, even if I wasn't winning, I was improving my starting position, so the game felt I needed to rank up, but I don't even belong in B, let alone A! Then I raced some Pantera at Monza and dropped like a fly to C/C or something like that, and rarely even touched Sport mode for quite a while. I've already made peace with myself about those trophies, maybe I'll go for the remaining ones I can get, maybe not, we shall see; it is true that 91 wins feel like a goal that can be achieved with some effort, yet at the same time it feels impossible, exactly as you said. That 1:34 at Lagos is a bad time, I'm well aware, but really I couldn't do more, I had a 1-hour long qualifying session and never got close to it again.

I still do think that the matchmaking could be improved by giving a bit more importance to the DR. If the problem, however, is really that too few players populate the online, then it is what it is and the system is indeed doing its best, can't argue with that. We were promised balanced racing, and we don't have it, whatever the reason. I'll just do what I can, I guess, and maybe by the time I'll get to retirement (which won't happen in Italy) I'll have managed to get the trophy, who knows :P oh well, at least I have the Livery Editor at my disposal haha :)

A little offtopic regarding MMO: I said WoW was "ruining my life" because I was addicted, and was neglecting university because of it. Luckily, with a little help from my friends and a guild disband, I got out. And, jumpers should have their jump key bound to some kind of electric device positioned under their chairs. :cheers:

Get a wheel!
It costs money, quite a lot if you want something that won't fall apart or be worse than a DS4 :P
 
You're not listening. No one wants to race in races where the skill gap is so large.
But we also don't want matchmaking queues of 20+ minutes and/or tiny grids either. There's a compromise to be had, and yes as is often the case it's sadly not ideal.
Actually I do listen and am always open for reasonable discussion and many times I have stated that the system currently is not working very well for all players at all levels.
We agree that the low number of players is the root cause, but no one wants to discuss that perhaps and more so for the very lower ranks that separating the ranks may help get the new players to stay in sport mode.

Most true D ranked players are going to be fairly new to the Sport Mode arena. Matching those players with even B ranked players is not going to allow the majority of those new players to feel like they can compete and to feel like they can race and be competitive.
So they quit within a small number of races.

How many racers that are in the stats with less than 20 races quit because of this very reason? That we will never know . But we do know that the player levels suck and cause terrible lobbies in many cases so something needs to change to keep the new guys wanting to come back.

Not just the serious racers but many of the casual guys as well, sport mode needs racers of all ranks top to bottom.
As long as the game has been out it may be to late for this edition as getting new players may not have enough people buying and starting a game now that is almost a year old.

But rather than fighting about whether the system is working right or perhaps in the best way it can to retain racers playing online we should be able to again agree the system is not working to where it is retaining large numbers of racers as compared to those that have played the game or even retained a lot of those past 20 racers that stuck their toe in the water and initially tried sport mode.

I think there are more problems than just the matching for sure but for this to work for the casual racer which is probably over 90% of the player base telling them to be happy racing at the back in mixed lobby races or to be competitive for running near the front I still say that the rankings need to be treated as its own separate racing class.

If the game needs to mix ranks then each class represented in the race needs its own class winner, fast lap for its class and class pole position for the starting order within that ranking class.

If giving out such bones works to help retain racers in sport mode and makes the racer feel like he is actually competing against equal in ranking competition then he will not care if he is16th overall if he is awarded 3rd within class.

Now that is something that really may help and not hurt anybody or even change the grids or the way they are even matched.
 
The matchmaking seems to be as good as it can be.

I sympathize with those less experienced players who drive with good sportsmanship and rise to SR faster than their experience level can catch up, and the competition is just so far ahead of them. They constantly finish in the middle or the back of the field and it becomes discouraging. The game has failed to address this.

Maybe it's best if DR and SR can only be 2 ranks apart, so for DR D the SR can only be as high as B, and so on. On DR B, it's very challenging for me to get poles or wins with SR S; with SR A it's fairly easy.
 
Heck the first part of the original post was that a guy was unable to improve his ranking because of the a drivers
Untrue.

Nope, it totally was not. At no point ever did I say I want to improve my ranking. I clearly stated i'm at my absolute peak and I know my own limits.
The purpose of this thread was purely about the crappy matching system of putting the highest rated drivers with a load of the lowest rated drivers and going against the whole ethos of Sport Mode.
All it's turned into now is a bitching and pissing thread.
 
Even something small like having class wins could be rewarding enough for many players. You finished as the top C driver in a race which includes B and A drivers? That counts as a win for you.
You want a cookie for everything, is that it?

Racing is a tough sport, and often times you need to get lucky to get a win. We shouldn't hand out trophies like in elementary school.
 
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Point of view of a B/B driver. I am not the fastest, nor the more experienced, with less than 70 races so far. I am not the cleanest, but more due to poor skills, and I really hope to improve on that.

Let's say there are 4 spots to be filled in a A/S lobby.
now let's say that the game can choose between 4 D/S drivers or 4 A/D drivers

Should the A/S lobby be mixed with 4 respectful drivers that will have their own race at the back? or should they be mixed with 4 fast and reckless drivers ?
As for the 4 D/S drivers, their objective is to have a better results than the other 3 D/S, which should mean DR points are up, and eventually they might be in B/A or B/S lobbies, if they have the skills.
 
Thats not the point.
What else is the point?

This thread is 11 pages long now, with bad drivers complaining that the playing field is not even and that they don't have a chance at winning. This game was designed for eSports. And as GTS is an online game in itself, you will go up against players of a variety of skill levels. Because online racing is a niche hobby already, you can't always expect to have enough players online so you will have a lobby of evenly skilled players.

Again, I can mention Call of Duty as another example. There will always be losers, and always winners. If everyone wins, nobody does. If people in real life racing would have this attitude, this sport would die pretty quickly. Why else would drivers join Formula 1 for example if they can't drive for Ferrari or Mercedes?
 
This thread is 11 pages long now, with bad drivers complaining that the playing field is not even and that they don't have a chance at winning.

Erm excuse me??? This is so wrong on every level! My original opening post clearly states I am a D-S ranked player. That S indicates I am a good clean racer. The D indicates I am a slow driver. NOT bad. I can hold a decent and clean race with people of equal ranking. I can't hold a decent race against people who I will never even share track space with due to being so unfairly matched. I have 220 race wins to my name out of over 1300 races. Most of those 220 came with a clean bonus. Bad is different to slow. Hence the whole point of my thread.
 
Erm excuse me??? This is so wrong on every level! My original opening post clearly states I am a D-S ranked player. That S indicates I am a good clean racer. The D indicates I am a slow driver. NOT bad. I can hold a decent and clean race with people of equal ranking. I can't hold a decent race against people who I will never even share track space with due to being so unfairly matched. I have 220 race wins to my name out of over 1300 races. Most of those 220 came with a clean bonus. Bad is different to slow. Hence the whole point of my thread.

So let me get this straight. You're winning 1 out of 6 races whilst admitting being slow and yet have the audacity to complain about broken matchmaking and not winning enough. Wow.
 
Erm excuse me??? This is so wrong on every level! My original opening post clearly states I am a D-S ranked player. That S indicates I am a good clean racer. The D indicates I am a slow driver. NOT bad. I can hold a decent and clean race with people of equal ranking. I can't hold a decent race against people who I will never even share track space with due to being so unfairly matched. I have 220 race wins to my name out of over 1300 races. Most of those 220 came with a clean bonus. Bad is different to slow. Hence the whole point of my thread.
The S ranking can also mean that you back out of every battle like I've seen numerous people do on YouTube. Which would also explain why your DR is so low. If you don't fight for places you can't gain any DR.

You have driven 1300 races but still haven't improved to DR C? The fact that you have 220 wins shows that the matchmaking works lol. What do you keep complaining about? This keeps getting funnier and funnier

Now I honestly believe that you're a troll

Its also full off people unable to make their points without attacking. How do you define a bad driver?

Someone who has driven 1300 races on this game, has 220 race wins which ACTUALLY SHOW that the matchmaking works in this game but still complains that it doesn't. Someone who would keep complaining on the internet how unfair this game and PD are rather than sit down, watch videos of the fastest guys on this game to improve his lap times, watch videos on how to become a better driver in general and work on his skills.
 
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I have 220 unfairly matched race wins to my name
Uh. That is statistically a lot more than a random field of D drivers of equal skill would be. You're just trolling at this point.. Well, throughout the whole thread i guess.

I am a bit above 25k DR, closing in on A ranking and won 8 (eight) races.
 
When I was DR-B I was always matched against (at the time) DR-S and it bugged me a bit, qualifying 10th and finishing 8th was a win in my eyes!. However as soon as the FIA series came along the player count shot up and boom, full grid of equal talent and I got my long overdue wins. It is what it is I'm afraid (not sure how widespread that saying is, lol). I understand the frustration but if GTS puts you in a 4 player lobby it would probably annoy others, so it's a design choice by PD and probably won't change, and isn't broken.
 
The S ranking can also mean that you back out of every battle like I've seen numerous people do on YouTube. Which would also explain why your DR is so low. If you don't fight for places you can't gain any DR.

You have driven 1300 races but still haven't improved to DR C? The fact that you have 220 wins shows that the matchmaking works lol. What do you keep complaining about? This keeps getting funnier and funnier

Again, another person who doesn't read at least the first few pages of a thread. If you had, even in the first post in fact, you will see I clearly put i sometimes reach the dizzy heights of being C rated. But due to the unfairness of being matched with A and S drivers my rankings get pushed down drastically. I'm not or have not complained about a win rate. How hard is it to grasp my original gripe that the system doesn't match drivers of equal talent or pace?
The only thing that gets funnier and funnier is the amount of people like you with the blatant inability to read.
 
But due to the unfairness of being matched with A and S drivers my rankings get pushed down drastically. I'm not or have not complained about a win rate. How hard is it to grasp my original gripe that the system doesn't match drivers of equal talent or pace?
That is absolute malarkey. If you finish below any driver with a better DR ranking than you you won't lose any points.
 
Uh. That is statistically a lot more than a random field of D drivers of equal skill would be. You're just trolling at this point.. Well, throughout the whole thread i guess.

I am a bit above 25k DR, closing in on A ranking and won 8 (eight) races.

Trolling?? Are you for real? Get back to me when you can understand this is about matching and NOT win rates. Good grief.
 
Again, another person who doesn't read at least the first few pages of a thread. If you had, even in the first post in fact, you will see I clearly put i sometimes reach the dizzy heights of being C rated. But due to the unfairness of being matched with A and S drivers my rankings get pushed down drastically. I'm not or have not complained about a win rate. How hard is it to grasp my original gripe that the system doesn't match drivers of equal talent or pace?
The only thing that gets funnier and funnier is the amount of people like you with the blatant inability to read.

Are you even aware of the fact that you barely lose any DR (if at all) against DR:A players? :D The reason you're getting bumped back to D is because you're not good enough. 1200 races is a solid enough sample size to accurately assess your rating.
 
Rubbish. If you finish below a certain level because you just cannot keep up then your DR suffers.
If I finish first in a lobby of 14 C-D ranked drivers and one A ranked driver, I hardly gain and DR points. If I finish 10th in a lobby full of A+ and A ranked drivers, I gain much, much more DR points. This is how the system works.

Are you even aware of the fact that you barely lose any DR (if at all) against DR:A players? :D The reason you're getting bumped back to D is because you're not good enough. 1200 races is a solid enough sample size to accurately assess your rating.

Seriously. If the guy keeps driving badly and not improving after 1200 races he has deserved his DR rank.
 
If I finish first in a lobby of 14 C-D ranked drivers and one A ranked driver, I hardly gain and DR points. If I finish 10th in a lobby full of A+ and A ranked drivers, I gain much, much more DR points. This is how the system works.



Seriously. If the guy keeps driving badly and not improving after 1200 races he has deserved his DR rank.

Well, 11 pages isn't too bad of a yield when you're a troll. :D
 
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