Statistical anomalies in motorsports.

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Carbonox, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. TenEightyOne

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    It starts with Gachot keeping well away from that taxi :)

    True, but you possibly have to go into far more of the variables to start to get an understanding. Weather differences, setup preferences, all kinds of stuff before you even get to the random chances that build motorsport records.
     
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  2. Liquid

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    I quite agree but was more pointing out that this thread isn't the place for them either. Stats can show (or suggest) anything when arranged a certain way.
     
  3. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    Following his controversial collision with Jacques Villeneuve at the 1997 European Grand Prix, Michael Schumacher was disqualified from 2nd place in the 1997 World Driver's Championship, but retained all of his finishing positions and points. If the FIA had taken the more extreme route and retroactively disqualified them from all of the races that season (which would be absurd, but not much more absurd than a disqualified driver having 5 wins and 78 points), then several statistical points of interest would have occured.

    For example, Jean Alesi would have won another Canadian Grand Prix (this time for Benetton rather than Ferrari), Giancarlo Fisichella would have taken his and Jordan's first win in Belgium (he later took their last win at the 2003 Brazillian Grand Prix), while Rubens Barrichello would have taken his only points of the season with his and Stewart's first win at Monaco.

    I also believe Fisichella's hypothetical retroactive win would have been Peugeot's only win as an engine manufacturer, all though I may be wrong on that one.

    Alternate 1997 Driver's:

    1. Jacques Villeneuve - 85 Points (+4) - 7 Wins
    2. Heinz-Harald Frentzen - 53 Points (+11) - 3 Wins (+2)
    3. Jean Alesi - 45 Points (+9) - 1 Win (+1) - 1 Place Gained
    4. David Coulthard - 39 Points (+3) - 2 Wins - 1 Place Lost
    5. Mika Hakkinen - 34 Points (+7) - 1 Win - 1 Place Gained
    6. Eddie Irvine - 32 Points (+8) - 1 Place Gained
    7. Gerhard Berger - 30 Points (+3) - 1 Win - 2 Places Lost
    8. Giancarlo Fischella - 29 Points (+9) - 1 Win (+1)
    9. Johnny Herbert - 20 Points (+5) - 1 Place Gained
    10. Olivier Panis - 18 Points (+2) - 1 Place Lost
    11. Ralf Schumacher - 16 Points (+3)
    12. Rubens Barrichello - 10 Points (+4) - 1 Win (+1) - 1 Place Gained
    13. Damon Hill - 8 Points (+1) - 1 Place Lost
    14. Shinji Nanako - 6 Points (+4) - 4 Places Gained
    15. Jarno Trulli - 5 Points (+2)
    16. Alexander Wurz - 4 Points - 2 Places Lost
    17. Mika Salo - 3 Points (+1)
    18. Pedro Diniz - 3 Points (+1) - 2 Places Lost
    19. Nicola Larini - 3 Points (+2)
    20. Jan Magnussen - 1 Point (+1)
    Alternate 1997 Constructor's:

    1. Williams-Renault - 138 Points (+15) - 10 Wins (+2)
    2. Benetton-Renault - 79 Points (+12) - 2 Wins (+1) - 1 Place Gained
    3. McLaren-Mercedes - 73 Points (+10) - 3 Wins - 1 Place Gained
    4. Jordan-Peugeot - 45 Points (+12) - 1 Win (+1) - 1 Place Gained
    5. Ferrari - 32 Points (-70) - 3 Places Lost
    6. Prost-Mugen-Honda - 29 Points (+8)
    7. Sauber-Petronas - 23 Points (+7)
    8. Stewart-Ford - 11 Points (+5) - 1 Win (+1) - 1 Place Gained
    9. Arrows-Yamaha - 11 Points (+2) - 1 Place Lost
    10. Tyrrell-Ford - 3 Points (+1)
    11. Minardi-Hart - Nil Points
    12. Lola-Ford - ∞ Meme Points
    Looking at the Alternate Constructor's Standings, it's pretty obvious that the reason Schumacher's points and results were allowed to stay was the extreme adverse affect disqualifying him from all the races would have had on Ferrari in the Constructor's; all though one could also argue that that's the price Ferrari might have had to pay for their tactic of putting almost all their focus on their lead driver.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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  4. Liquid

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    In 1984 Tyrrell as a whole were disqualified which meant that as well as being stripped of their constructor's points their drivers (Bellof and Brundle) did not retain their individual points and records, which included some solid podiums for the newcomer drivers.

    It seems odd how in that case the drivers themselves were not personally punished but were stripped of their points and records yet in Schumacher's case he himself was personally punished but was allowed to retain his points and records.

    Ferrari International Assistance tin hats required.
     
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  5. TenEightyOne

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    My own (entirely unsourcable) opinion is that the difference is the following:

    The Tyrells were not legal to take part in any of the 1984 due to the discoveries of clever (cheat) ballast systems and questions about how they were mixing/using fuel. The machines weren't eligible to race and the races they'd undertaken were scrubbed of their presence.

    Schumacher's presence in races remained and was recorded but he was excluded from the Drivers' Championship only - the decision was made due to his behaviour in a particular moment that particularly related to the WDC itself. The car had been legal to run and had done so, its finishing positions couldn't be altered as they weren't relevant to the incident in question.
     
  6. Liquid

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    @TenEightyOne Notwithstanding that Tyrrell was the only team not using turbos and were recalcitrant to do so. FISA/FIA needed to get some leverage over them to push through their fully-turbo era.

    But that's a story for another day.
     
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  7. TenEightyOne

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    I should clarify my comment: given the official reason for Tyrrell's disqualification etc. etc... now that belongs in the Conspiracy thread :D
     
  8. Ryk

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    Brazil 1983 - Rosberg did a mighty race - car caught fire he got out of his car, put out the fire, got back in restarted it and charged up to 2nd place... only to be disqualified for getting a Push start in the pit lane... so the stewards didn't award anyone 2nd place. First time it happened in F1 and probably the last!

    I think Keke Rosberg was disqualified from 2nd place in Brazil in 1982 as well - for a top up water tank, that enabled the car to run underweight, but that year they did re jig the official results.
     
  9. Blitz24

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    That must have been an interesting podium of two people.

    Another NASCAR oddity: Jeremy Mayfield won the 2000 NAPA Auto Parts 500 but lost positions in the standings. The reason? A 151 point penalty was assessed from a rules infraction made during the previous race.
     
  10. Ryk

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    1977 fuji podium.jpg
    Two people on a Podium, yesterday.

    Both winner James Hunt and runner up Carlos Reutemann chose to leave Fujiyama to get on a flight home as soon as they got out of the car. This left Patrick Depailler and a mystery mechanic on the podium.

    This event made the top three finishers have to hang about to do a podium ceremony. - But that isn't stat related... but it is a nice picture.
     
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  11. Liquid

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    Dave Walker is the only driver to never score points in a season where his team mate won the title; he was Emerson Fittipaldi's team mate in 1972 and had a best result of 9th whilst Fittipaldi scored 61 and the championship.
     
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  12. Roo

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    @Ryk The most recent F1 podium with only two drivers was also the only podium I know where all the drivers on the podium didn't retain their positions: Brazil 2003, with Raikkonen 1st (but really 2nd), Fisichella 2nd (but really 1st), and Alonso 3rd (but really in the medical centre).

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Carbonox

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    Brian Henton is the only driver that has a fastest lap, but no World Championship points.
     
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  14. RazorSharkz

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    I was about to bring up Masahiro Hasemi but I remember they took his away.
     
  15. CLowndes888

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    Rick Kelly only had one win in the 2006 V8 Supercars Championship, but he still won the title.
     
  16. Pete05

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    :rolleyes: :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :censored: :mad:
     
  17. Roo

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    Formula 1's Facebook page reminds that it's 10 years to the day that Markus Winkelhock became the only F1 driver to a) start last and first in the same race and b) lead every race he started.
     
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  18. Liquid

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    One of the more ignominious streaks in Formula One is Rubens Barrichello's bad luck at his home race, the Brazilian Grand Prix.

    Although he did finish the race eight times in his career, during his prime days at Jordan, Stewart and Ferrari he had a run of ten retirements in 11 Grands Prix including nine consecutive DNFs at the race:

    1993 - Gearbox
    ---
    1995 - Gearbox
    1996 - Spin (Where he qualified 2nd, briefly led and was in with a chance of winning)
    1997 - Suspension
    1998 - Gearbox
    1999 - Engine (Where he led most of the race and probably would have won)
    2000 - Hydraulics
    2001 - Collision
    2002 - Hydraulics
    2003 - Hydraulics (Retired from a commanding 20 second lead)

    His only podium at the race was 3rd in 2004 with the other finishes being 4th (1994), 6th, 7th (2005-06), DNF (Engine, 2007), 15th, 8th, 14th, 14th (2008-11)
     
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  19. Liquid

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    Due to their only season in F1 being wildly successful Brawn GP hold the team record for the best percentage of races won; 8 wins in 17 races gives them 47.1%.

    Interestingly though, Mercedes-Benz and their mid-2010s dominance are catching up; 73 wins in 162 races puts them on 45.1%.

    ---

    Mercedes-Benz AMG Petronas hold the team record for most wins in a season but McLaren hold the record percentage-wise .

    Mercedes-Benz: 19 wins in 21 races for 90.5% (2016)
    McLaren: 15 wins in 16 races for 93.8% (1988)

    ---

    Similarly, Mercedes-Benz hold the engine record for most wins in a season but Ford-Cosworth hold the record percentage, having also set it twice.

    Interestingly enough, despite holding the cardinal record for most wins Mercedes-Benz isn't even second in the percentage record.

    Ford-Cosworth: 11 wins in 11 races; 15 wins in 15 races for 100% (1969; 1973)
    Renault: 16 wins in 17 races for 94.1% (1995)
    Honda: 15 wins in 16 races for 93.8% (1988)
    Ford-Cosworth: 11 wins in 12 races for 91.7% (1968)
    Mercedes-Benz: 19 wins in 21 races for 90.5% (2016)

    Additionally to this record, Ford-Cosworth and Renault supplied more than one winning team during their respective seasons.

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    Furthermore as a feather in the cap of Ford-Cosworth, although many teams have set consecutive winning streaks across two seasons such as Renault, Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Porsche and Ford-Cosworth themselves, their 100% record in 1969 and 1973 means that they are the only engine supplier to set a winning streak across three seasons.

    22 consecutive wins (1972 Austrian Grand Prix-1974 South African Grand Prix)
    21 consecutive wins (1968 British Grand Prix-1970 Monegasque Grand Prix)
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  20. RESHIRAM5

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    You gotta remember that, that was a very weird season as majority of races had a reverse grid format for Race 2 and Race 3 was the combined total of points from Races 1 and 2 based off Canberras old format, consistent results mattered much more than actual winning and retirements cost you much more since retirements don't apply to the reverse grid format.

    One of the most weirdest anomalies though in Supercars is with Erebus Motorsport and their run with Mercedes, despite getting 0 support from the manufacturer and having the most undeveloped cars of the 5, not only were they the only non Holden or Ford team to win a 2015 race but pulled more wins than Nissan when they were both around with Mercedes pulling with 2 while Nissan only got 1 (they did get another win eventually but that was after the Erebus project with the E63 AMGs were dropped).
     
  21. Carbonox

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    Even though Hasemi's alleged fastest lap turned out to be a dud, I'm surprised about how fast the Kojima car was in that race, despite its status as a one-race-only local team in an era where most of those certainly weren't enjoying success. Had the cards fallen right for him in the wet race, who knows how high he could've finished for an even bigger anomaly?
     
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  22. RazorSharkz

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    The 2017 f1 season has had 5 different winners so far(Hamilton, Vettel, Bottas, Ricciardo, Verstappen), which is the most in a few years. Only 7 drivers have finished on a podium this year though(Raikonnen, Stroll), as far as I can tell the lowest number since 2011, which also had 7.
     
  23. JockeP22

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    Kenny Brack having the most race wins (4) and the most pole positions (6)
    yet losing out on the 2001 CART FedEx Championship Series title to Gil de Ferran by 36 points.
     
  24. ShiftingGears

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    Do those alternate timelines involve the bubonic plague?
     
  25. -Fred-

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    They might.
     
  26. 05XR8

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    In 2017,Scott Mclaughlin had most wins and most poles and still lost the Championship by 21 points.
     
  27. Liquid

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    Both times Alain Menu won the BTCC, dropped scores came into play:

    In the 1997 British Touring Car Championship, there were dropped scores. The best 20 results from 26 races counted towards the championship. As it was, only the eventual winner Alain Menu had dropped scores; he only failed to finish in the points twice whilst every other driver had at least six non-points finishes.

    The same was also true in 2000 when Anthony Reid scored 201 points to Alain Menu's 195 points. This time around, Menu did not drop any scores but Reid did and was counted at 193 points, thusly losing the championship at the final race by two points thanks to dropped scores.

    ---

    On the further subject of dropped scores, the Formula One championship has also been won thanks only to dropped scores;

    Graham Hill outscored John Surtees 41 points to 40 in 1964 but Surtees took the championship thanks to not needing to drop any scores whilst Hill dropped 2 points to 39 to miss out on the title by a single point.

    Alain Prost outscored Ayrton Senna in 1988 with Prost's 105 points to Senna's 94 points but Senna won the championship because after dropped scores, Senna had 90 points to Prost's 87. Prost lost a staggering 18 points through dropped scores.

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    The final titbit on dropped scores is that both times Jim Clark won the World Championship, he did so with a perfect 100% score. In both years the best six results from ten races counted towards the championship, meaning that the maximum number of points possible was 54 (6 wins x 9pts).

    In 1963 Clark scored 73 points; seven victories, one 2nd place, one 3rd place and one 8th place.
    In 1965 Clark scored exactly 54 points; six victories, one 10th place, two DNFs and he did not compete at Monaco.

    Therefore, Jim Clark twice scored 54 points out of a possible total of 90 yet won the championship with a 100% perfect score.

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    I hate dropped scores.
     
  28. Liquid

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    Utterly random and useless but it piqued my curiosity:

    Roland Ratzenberger finished higher in the 1994 Formula One World Championship than Ayrton Senna.

    Both scored 0 points, as did a lot of drivers, but in the official classification Ratzenberger is higher on countback because he had a classified finish in his one and only start (11th at Aida) whereas Senna is classifiied as DNF for all three of his races.

    Ratzenberger: DNQ - 11th - DNS
    Senna: DNF - DNF - DNF

    ---

    Additionally, I just posted in the trivia thread the fact that 46 drivers featured in the 1994 season and that that is before factoring in drivers like de Cesaris, Alliot, Herbert and Lehto who drove for two teams that year. Herbert even drove for three.

    Seriously, this was the nadir of pay drivers; Taki Inoue, Dominica Schiattarella, Jean-Marc Gounon, Olivier Beretta, Yannick Dalmas, Hideki Noda, Aguri Suzuki, Jean-Denis Delatraz, Frank Lagorce, Andrea Montermini, Paul Belmondo, Roland Ratzenberger, Mika Salo, Philippe Alliot and Phillippe Adams all featured at one point or another.

    And that is being lenient to drivers like Ukyo Katayama, Christian Fittipaldi, Eric Bernard, David Brabham, Olivier Panis, JJ Lehto, Pierluigi Martini, Erik Comas, Bertrand Gachot and Michele Alboreto who could meet the definition of pay drivers to varying levels of extent.

    Minardi, Footwork and Pacific were the only three teams from thirteen to retain the same two drivers for all sixteen races that year. An astonishing ten teams made at least one driver change during the season.

    Lotus and Larrousse started and ended the season with two completely different drivers;

    Lotus started with Pedro Lamy and Johnny Herbert, and ended with Mika Salo and Alessandro Zanardi.
    Larrousse started with Olivier Beretta and Erik Comas, and ended with Hideki Noda and Jean-Denis Delatraz.

    It really was an extraordinary season.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
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  29. Roger the Horse

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    I think people tend to forget how good we currently have it in F1 with regards to pay drivers. On the current grid there are probably only really 3 drivers who can fairly be called pay drivers, and of them Lance Stroll's Formula 3 credentials are probably enough for him to deserve his F1 seat on merit. Sirotkin also seems to be by all accounts very professional and Ericsson too seems to have largely made the most of his time in F1, even if it's mostly been at a backmarker team.
     
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  30. CLowndes888

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    How can such a thing happen? That's just ridiculous, it must've been like musical chairs.