Statistical anomalies in motorsports.

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Carbonox, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    Two drivers were killed that season and several others received injuries which put them out of action. In Wendlinger's case they were essentially career ending. On top of that several drivers (notably including Schumacher and Hakkinen) received race bans which necessitated their teams replace them at various rounds. As well, several teams were nearing financial collapse, and would place any driver in the car who could bring the most sponsorship for that race.
     
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  2. Liquid

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    There are two teams in Formula One who have won World Championship races without ever building their own Formula One car.

    Rob Walker Racing won the 1958 Argentinian Grand Prix with Stirling Moss in a Cooper; this was also the first win for a rear-engined Formula One car.

    FISA (Federazione Italiana Scuderie Automobilistiche) won the 1961 French Grand Prix with Giancarlo Baghetti in an underpowered Ferrari; contrary to popular belief Baghetti was not a works Ferrari driver when he won that race.

    There are two further statistical anomalies from this:

    I'm fairly certain that FISA didn't enter any other World Championship races, which would mean they won their one and only race giving them a 100% win rate in Formula One.

    Rob Walker Racing won the first race for a Cooper car as well as the first race for a Lotus car (Moss again at the 1961 Monegasque Grand Prix). This was before either the works Cooper or Lotus teams actually won a race themselves. I'm unsure if any other team has won a race with a customer car before the constructor did so themselves.

    ---

    Is this comparable with other motor sports with a similar history of works teams?
     
  3. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    In 1970 Jackie Stewart won the Spanish GP driving a March-Ford for the Tyrrell team.
     
  4. Liquid

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    Ah yes, forgot about that. Stewart gave Matra, March and Tyrrell their first wins.

    March is always the one I forget there.
     
  5. Roo

    Roo Premium

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    Toro Rosso/Red Bull? I'm not sure what the exact status of Toro Rosso was in 2008, customer or constructor.
     
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  6. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    In 1930, Bugatti privateer Rene Dreyfus won the Monaco GP ahead the full factory Bugatti team.

    NART Ferraris won LeMans in 1962 and Reims in '65 ahead of the factory team.

    Back in F1, in 1973 Hesketh outperformed March, and Theodore beat Ensign in 1977.
     
  7. Pete05

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    Junior team, yes. Same constructor, no. Not even the same engine. Yes, they no doubt had access to the Newry brain & had a benefit from that but IMO, the cars were different enough to be excluded from the current topic.
     
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  8. Dotini

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    In a famous victory, the able Londoner John Cannon defeated the full McLaren Can-Am team in a very obsolete private McLaren at Laguna Seca, 1968.
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Liquid

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    Although several drivers such as Mike Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi and Mika Häkkinen had just 1 victory prior to their first championship-winning season, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill and Denny Hulme are the only drivers in the history of Formula One who had no championship race wins prior to their first championship-winning season.

    No, Farina doesn't count.
     
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  10. Northstar

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    Depending on how technical you wanted to be, Farina wouldn't fit in the second category anyways as he won the 1948 Monaco GP.
     
  11. Liquid

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    That's why I didn't count him; not only had he won Grand Prix/Formula races before but 1950 is typically exempt from 'debut' statistics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  12. Dotini

    Dotini Premium

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    A most lovely and thoughtful post, evoking fond memories for me. Thank you.
    Of the eight drivers in question, I've had personal conversations with two and personally watched four race back in the day. Of the three who had no Grand Epreuve wins prior to their 1st Championship year, I'd say Denis "The Bear" Hulme was most anomalous, as he was most overdue for such a win, IMO. He was also the first former F1 champion to die of natural causes.
     
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  13. Liquid

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    That is a very morbid trivium.
     
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  14. Dotini

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    It used to be F1 and racing in general were very morbid affairs.
    Back in 1982 I had some spare time on my hands and made a statistical study of every driver who ever raced in F1, looking for cause of death. It turned out that 1/3 of everyone who ever raced in F1 up to '82 died violently behind the wheel.
     
  15. Roo

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    Mercedes have had more 1-2 finishes this season than Ferrari have had in the past decade.

    (Also true of every F1 team other than Red Bull.)
     
  16. Jimlaad43

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    The 2008 Italian Grand Prix was the only time in the 1002 F1 races so far where a customer (ie, not in a Ferrari chassis) Ferrari engine scored a Pole Position, and the only time one scored a win too.

    In fact, a customer Ferrari engine has only ever scored 5 Fastest Laps and 6 podiums. Ferrari may have the most of everything in engine statistics, but it's pretty much exclusively the factory team only.
     
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  17. Liquid

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    Unfortunately this isn't true; Giancarlo Baghetti's win on his World Championship debut was in a privately entered Ferrari. It was after winning that race that he was called up to the factory team.
     
  18. Jimlaad43

    Jimlaad43 Premium

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    That's why I said "ie not in a Ferrari chassis".
     
  19. Barra333

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    Yet, he still died on the racetrack.
     
  20. Carbonox

    Carbonox

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    I guess Keke Rosberg is chopped liver, then...?
     
  21. Liquid

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    Derp. There are four then. :O

    Still, 4 world champions out of 32 (different men, not counting Farina) having not won a race prior to their first championship winning season is somewhat anomalous.
     
  22. RazorSharkz

    RazorSharkz

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    Jensen Button only had one win before his championship season too.
     
  23. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    Mika Häkkinen is an interesting example because his first win came in the last race before his title winning season.

    Interestingly while Nick Heidfeld has the most podiums without a win (13), 6 drivers have exceeded that figure before their first win; with 1999 title contenders Eddie Irvine and Mika Häkkinen both having 16, tied with Jean Alesi and Patrick Depailler for the most.
     
  24. Liquid

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    - In 1979 and 1980, the only points finishes Jean-Pierre Jabouille had in both years was a single race victory.

    - Teo Fabi qualified in pole position for the 1985 German Grand Prix but didn't score a single point all season.
     
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  25. Roo

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    Ended up going down a maiden-F1GP-victory rabbit hole after a question posted on the Midweek Motorsport Listeners' Collective.

    Maiden GP winners per decade:
    (Figures in brackets include Indy 500)

    1950s: 15 (24)
    1960s: 17 (18)
    1970s: 22
    1980s: 14
    1990s: 10
    2000s: 14
    2010s: 5 so far

    Track with most maiden GP winners: Monaco (9 - Fangio, Trintignant, Brabham, Hulme, Beltoise, Depailler, Patrese, Panis, Trulli). Indy 500 has 10.

    Longest gap between maiden victories:
    Alessandro Nannini, 1989 Japanese GP -> Michael Schumacher, 1992 Belgian GP: 2 years 10 months 8 days
    Mark Webber, 2009 German GP -> Nico Rosberg, 2012 Chinese GP: 2 years 9 months 3 days
    Michele Alboreto, 1982 Caesars Palace GP -> Ayrton Senna, 1985 Portuguese GP: 2 years 6 months 26 days
    Current streak come Sunday's Hungarian GP: 2 years 3 months 5 days since Valtteri Bottas won the 2017 Russian GP. The Nannini/Schumacher record will remain if we get a maiden victor this season.

    Most maiden GP victories in a season: 1982 (5 - Patrese, Tambay, de Angelis, Keke Rosberg, Alboreto)
     
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  26. Roo

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    One I've just stumbled across: the 1994 Portuguese GP was the last race to feature no world champions on the grid. It also had only 2 future champions, Hakkinen and Damon Hill.
     
  27. Liquid

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    After doing some research for a post elsewhere:

    1991 Le Mans 24 Hours

    The cars built specifically for the new rules in 1991 failed to qualify.
    The race was dominated by older cars from the previous regs or updated versions of older cars.

    There are reasons that explain this anomaly, that the 1991-spec cars were given new engine rules at very short notice, but has it occurred elsewhere where older cars have beaten the newer, supposed-to-be-better cars? It's not often that cars from newer and older regs actually race each other; it doesn't happen in F1, for example.
     
  28. Tornado

    Tornado

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    It functionally happened again in 1994; and I guess 1968/1968 as well.



    Mitsubishi regularly beat the then-new WRC-spec cars with their still-Group-A Lancer for three years straight; plus the tarmac races that the Kit Car-spec classes also stomped on most (and in two cases, all) of the WRC-spec cars in as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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  29. Jimlaad43

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    This is a list of all the circuits on the F1 calender and which ones a driver scored their first victory at which I made a couple of months ago, sorted by percentage of races to give a first winner.

    Blue is for drivers that scored only 1 win, while gold is for World Champions.
    1st win.jpg
     
  30. Liquid

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    Mm, I forgot about the switchover from Group A to WRC.

    But when Bugalski won the Corsican Rally with the F2 Xsara I think that was a "lower formula" car beating the top tier cars. Still a great achievement, mind.

    ---

    Another random statistical curiosity:

    Of the eight tyre suppliers in Formula One, Goodyear (24-26) and Dunlop (8-9) are the only ones with more constructors titles than drivers titles.

    In 1958 Ferrari won the drivers title with Engleberts but Vanwall won the constructors with Dunlops.
    In 1981 Brabham won the drivers titles with Michelins but Williams won the constructors with Goodyears.
    In 1983 Brabham won the drivers titles with Michelins but Ferrari won the constructors with Goodyears.
     
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