Super Car Challenge

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In this sense, I think we'll see what Eutechnyx can really do when their new title comes out.

Ever the optimist! ;)

I can accept the premise that SCC, in & of itself, is a decent, but flawed game. What I can't accept is that it made any sense to put it out in the first place, when it had so little to offer over & above FC. Why didn't System 3 just work on improving the existing game & adding DLC, as originally promised, while working towards a truly new game? Instead of one larger, "tweaked" game, we've now got 2 half-assed games. :indiff:

I don't know about the ins & outs of programming & the PSN, but I would gladly have paid an extra $30 for a significantly expanded & improved FC, rather than an extra $50 for a second, deeply flawed game.
 
I wonder if those of us here in the FC/SCC 'fanclub' just see things differently or if the guys from SRT are just in an alternate reality universe. I know a few people who were put off by the deadzone in FC and just didn't like it. But aside from those few exceptions, nearly everybody I ever spoke to who's played FC/SCC with a wheel agrees that is has arguably the best FFB in PS3 land.

SCC definitely has the best physics and FFB of any game on the PS3. It gives more feel than any racing game i have played so far. The FFB effects are very good.
 
It's only my 'theory' Biggles. I have no proof. But what I suspect happened was something like this:

Three years ago, Mark Cale, a very rich businessman, owner of System 3 and Ferrari Enthusiast, decided he wanted to make a Ferrari based racing game that paid homage to the Sega 355 Challenge game. The project becomes ultra ambitious. And Mark Cale pays for much of the development cost out of his own pocket because it's a passion of his to see this game become a reality. He talks about DLC, every Ferrari ever made, Bruno Senna is drafted in as a consultant. Things are looking good.

First there's one delay. Than more. The game becomes bogged down in technical issues and when finally released, a year late, suffers from a number of complex problems that aren't easy to solve. Eutechnyx goes a long way to patching many of them. The 'patching' process is made complicated for the NTSC market due to the complex licensing and marketing deals set up by System 3. Activision, who sells the game in the United States, doesn't even list the game on their website. Patches are delayed for months. Things stall and lose momentum.

The game features some really innovative features and truly amazing FFB. But many people are put off by the bugs. By the fact that it features only Ferraris. By it's limitations and play system. It's a horrendously difficult game for 'casual' gamers. It suffers from bad press, poor reviews, poor marketing. And as a result, poor sales. With sales numbers in the gutter, and Mark Cale already having spent a fortune in development costs, DLC, as he originally envisioned, never becomes a reality.

But because of it's finer attributes, FC develops an almost cult like following. Those that 'get it' love it. And realizing it's mistakes and FC's limitations, System 3 decides to build a new game based on the FC engine, a game that Ferrari Challenge SHOULD have been in the first place but would cost too much and take too much effort to correct. You can't very well add Corvettes and McLarens into a game called Ferrari Challenge.

Development starts. The plan becomes more ambitious. As development continues and costs escalate, the financial crisis hits, System 3 begins to scale back and have second thoughts after already losing a fortune on Ferrari Challenge. The game is an improvement and features many refinements. But System 3 has virtually no budget or resources for advertising or marketing. The game is almost unknown. And many people who want it can't even find it for sale as numerous distributors are individually responsible for the distribution and advertising in their own individual markets, such is the limited resources of System 3.

The game was a PS3 exclusive. In retrospect, a cost saving maneuver to cut down on development expense. But a step that ends up hurting this game further. A PS3 exclusive means not a single distributor in the North American Market is even willing to pick it up and sell it in the largest single market in the world.

I think FC/SCC is a classic tale of a small fish in a big pond and what happens as a result.
 
Interesting read Jeff. Somebody once mentioned before that they got the impression that Supercar Challenge had a smaller budget than Ferrari Challenge and I would definitely agree with that. I think a lot of people are just underwhelmed by it because sequels in computer games are invariably better than their predecessors, and people just assumed it would be a marked improvement. In this instance it's better in some areas, and not so great in others.

I was put off by Ferrari Challenge mainly because of the fact that it only had Ferraris, but I was always aware that it had good physics, which makes that ISR review annoying. They didn't praise SCC for what it was good at, note it's shortfalls and judge it accordingly, they just slated it much in the same way most mainstream magazines would - quite irresponsible from a website that concerns itself with 'sim' racing yet praises Grid and Dirt to the high heavens.

The fact that I never owned FC means I don't feel the same frustration as Biggles does. But putting myself in his shoes, I probably wouldn't have wanted to buy SCC either. However, I thought his assessment of it was a little harsh. I thought the replays were good. The only problems with them being the 'moving' skidmarks and that you can't save them, but basically I enjoy watching them - even my g/f thought they looked cool when I forced her to sit there while I played :)
And I think the graphics are OK. GT5 and F1 CE have absolutely beautiful graphics IMO, just because a game isn't in the same league as those two doesn't make it ugly. I'm glad he's come round to them slightly more now. A neat feature, look at the steering wheel when driving in the 599xx, the way the light shines on the carbon fiber looks great. The graphics aren't as basic and 'PS2' esque as some people suggest.
 
For anyone looking for a good racing sim, how long do great graphics matter? Not very long. Once you get into some good races, the importance of great graphics goes out the window. Of course if graphics are bad, then it will always be off-putting. FC/SCC graphics are not great, but still always good enough.

It reminds me of this GT5P kiddies demand for damage modelling. I always think "well how long are you going to get out of crashing?". It will always come back to the same thing - good racing! If the racing is not good, the game won't last. And SCC racing is very good.
 
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The only complaint i have about SCC so far is the AI. If they could fix the AI then the game would be close to perfection in my eyes. The physics and especially the FFB feel great. I also love the sound, crank it up on a good surround sound system and you'll be in heaven. The graphics obviously aren't up to GT5p standards but i really could care less. I'll sacrifice graphics for smooth frame rate and good game play anytime. I haven't played online yet. 90% of the tracks are new to me so I want to get to know them a bit before i rush online.
 
To an extent, I have to disagree with this Alan. I don't think the visuals are as important as Biggles. But hey, the man sells Art for a living--it's understandable. When I haven't played Prologue in a while and I go back to it, I'm immediately stunned and in awe at how realistic and life like it appears. Either they're just much better graphic artists over at PD or they're using a bit of Voodoo. No matter how many times I see it, it's just breathtaking. And smooth--no screen tearing, no skipping. It's the model of what others should be striving for. And there's an element of virtual reality simply as a result from the spectacular visuals there that no other racing game I've seen to date has been able to capture. And in that sense, it has the ability to pull you into the game and make you feel a part of it, just on the visuals alone. Otherwise we'd all be satisfied with this:

poleposition_origine.gif


When you play FC or SCC for a while, you get accustomed to the graphics. You get used to it, you don't think about it after a while and you just concentrate on the task at hand. But play Prologue for an hour and THEN go back to SCC. It really puts you off.

And to a lesser extent, the same goes for the damage modeling. The damage was actually MUCH better in Ferrari Challenge than it is in Supercar Challenge. That SOB Kubica88 rammed me straight on--we had a closing speed of close to 300 kmh. It should have been a spectacular explosion that saw bits and pieces of our cars strewn from Bucine to Arrabbiatal. But all it did was dent my bumper. At least in FC, bits and pieces flew off. And having realistic damage modeling, not just from having an accident but from driving off the track or hitting a wall or riding a curb too aggressively will inevitably force SIM racers to be be better drivers if the penalties for off track activity are too great.
 

Now there's a game with character!

Damage: I would love if the slightest glance against another car would damage the suspension, or damage the radiator or whatever. Because it's all in the name of a greater challenge - pushing users to drive with more skill. But if no mechanical damage occur, it seems a bit odd to have parts fall off the car after a 550kph head on collision, and yet the car can still continue driving perfectly. And the reason for no mechanical damage in FC (and carried over to SCC) is not for the sake of the game, but to satisfy a car company.
 
Now there's a game with character!

Damage: I would love if the slightest glance against another car would damage the suspension, or damage the radiator or whatever. Because it's all in the name of a greater challenge - pushing users to drive with more skill. But if no mechanical damage occur, it seems a bit odd to have parts fall off the car after a 550kph head on collision, and yet the car can still continue driving perfectly.

Yeah, and if you remember, it had damage modeling too: :)

crash1.jpg


Kaz needs to take a look at this. But I agree with you. And that's why I see REALISTIC damage modeling is important. Granted, imagine how frustrating it would be to lose control on the last lap of a 20 lap race. :lol: But, this too is part of racing.
 
Yeah, and if you remember, it had damage modeling too: :)

crash1.jpg


Kaz needs to take a look at this. But I agree with you. And that's why I see REALISTIC damage modeling is important. Granted, imagine how frustrating it would be to lose control on the last lap of a 20 lap race. :lol: But, this too is part of racing.

This is exactly how F1CE and Toca 3 are. So why not have more racing game with a this realistic of a damage model?
 
I'm guessing because the vast majority of people who play racing games are actually casual gamers. And they'd quickly grow tired and frustrated.
 
I've been trying to hold on to the positives of this game, but getting more and more fed up to be honest.

Went online for some races this evening. GTP_Bullie invited me to a lobby. Around lap 5/7, the lobby collapsed as Bullie's system crashed.

Joined a lobby with Frawe and Derek. From the PS3 desktop, went to open a message, and the system locked with the "please wait" screen for opening the message (The PS3 desktop is bullet-proof. I absolutely don't believe it's a PS3 problem, especially given SCC problems with the PS3). Had to reboot.

Rejoined the Frawe/Derek lobby. Did a full race. After the race, just as we all returned to the loading screen, everyone's system crashed! That is, everyone's PS3 suddenly re-booted. And this is all before I can even complain about the lag problems ("prediction" problems really).

Naturally I may not have been in the best mood this evening, but more and more lately I've been getting a bit fed-up with several things in the physics. The physics are different within a particular zone of the corners; if there's any instability in the car, oversteer always occurs in the direction of the corner.

With the pad and no ABS, locking-up is a regular occurance. Driving the 250LM I found that early entry to corners is the best way sometimes. Frequently I would be turning-in early with wheels-locked, and then suddenly you cross this invisible line like a "start-of-corner" line, and the physics change, with immediate oversteer. It's awful!

The latest thing I've noticed is that whenever you carry too much speed into a corner, it always results in oversteer!! I just had a thought for some reason - "Mmm, I don't every remember understeering on entry to a corner...". I can't understand it. I've just never come across this, in 16 years of playing these kind of sims. Are they trying to appeal to the 'drifters' market - make it easier for the car to slide, or what? Software development is my field, so quickly I see it's definitely intentional - they designed it like this. Peculiarities of this kind commonly point to some technical reason for doing it. In that case it's just rubbish modelling. All of these issues I talk about come back to the same problem - there is some kind of racing line which interacts with the user's car. But I can't understand why.

In the classic Microprose series, GP1, GP2, GP3, there was also a kind of racing line. Someone developed a circuit editor, which exposed the full physics engine. When creating your own circuits, two racing lines had to be created - one for AI, one for user. This affected the way the car moved on the circuit. For some technical reason, it was a fundimental of the physics engine. Even at the time of GP2/GP3, I thought it was a bit crumby, especially since Playstation F1/Toca was around, seemingly without this kind of modelling.

I spoke earlier about the "mammoth" power of the PS3 putting a strain on resources, etc. But the physics models of racing sims don't really get any more difficult with increased platform capabilities. The increased demand on resources is mostly for graphics, circuits, visuals, smoke, crumpled bodywork etc.

Casting my mind back to when I first turned a corner in Ferrari Challenge, I had an immediate feeling of like I wasn't in control - like I was driving a physics engine, not driving a car. SCC - same physics - it's the exact same. It always feels very restricted.

The cockpit view is also pretty suspect. I was pretty dejected this evening and really didn't have my "heart" in racing, so I kind of just sat back, and I found myself looking at the screen in a different way, perhaps using a different part of my brain or something! (like when the art teacher teaches you how drawing upside-down uses the opposite side of the brain!) Rather than looking like being in a moving car, I was stuck by how much the cockpit interior just seems to be super-imposed onto just an open camera moving through the air. After some more thought, it's possibly because of the very limited "head" movement. We can control it left/right. But when you hit bumps/kurbs, there is little or no movement. It looks pretty sterile.

And then we get to the racing - shoved off at Mugello turn one by a badly-predicted-car. Same happened again a couple of times in other races. And they're only my own experiences. Coming along-side another car - it suddenly and momentarily appeared inside my car, bringing my car from 200kph to 0 instantaneously.

There's no doubt I'll be back yet again tomorrow for more troubled online races. But it's for the same reason that previously I try to see the positives of this game - lack of market competition.
 
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Holy smoke! I seem to have opened the flood-gates of discontent! :sick:

Casting my mind back to when I first turned a corner in Ferrari Challenge, I had an immediate feeling of like I wasn't in control - like I was driving a physics engine, not driving a car. SCC - same physics - it's the exact same.

I honestly think every game I've tried is the same, in differing ways. FC/SCC doesn't feel like driving a RL car, but nor does GT5P with its over-emphasized under-steer, pedal-to-the-metal braking, minimal weight-transfer & weak FFB.

F1CE, I'm pretty sure, doesn't come anywhere close to recreating the real feel of F1 physics, but it does provide a very challenging equivalent of the kind of skills required to pilot an F1 car at high speeds around the track.

To be honest, IMO, at slower speeds, Shift has the most convincing feel of driving a real car (much more so with the Fanatec wheel than with the G25), & it has a superb cockpit view where you actually feel like you are inside the car. But then Shift's physics completely fall apart at higher levels of performance.

For my money, FC/SCC creates, overall, the most convincing equivalent of RL racing. Even though it doesn't necessarily accurately recreate the RL balance between understeer & oversteer, it at least creates an equivalent of the kind of balancing of brake, throttle & steering required in RL, & it does it in a much more visceral way than GT5P does it. However, some kind of amalgam of the best elements of GT5P, Shift & FC/SCC would be what's required! :indiff:

Hey, look on the positive side: maybe that's what GT5 will provide! :) :nervous:
 
Sucks to hear you're having problems. I use a wheel and the physics feel good to me. Never tried it with a controller. i also haven't played the game online yet. I added you, but obviously we haven't raced yet. I won't go into a random match because it seems all racing games are full of kids that like to play bumper cars.

I have had a few issues with my system either locking or rebooting with SCC. So I hear ya there. Today I was watching a replay of a race I had just done, and at the end it locked up and I had to hold the power button on my PS3 to reboot it. I've also seen my system reboot when quitting the game.

There are definitely some areas in SCC that need work, but I think it's the best racing game the PS3 has right now. GT5p got old quick, Shift is pretty much unplayable right now, Dirt 2 is fun, and I guess there is always F1CE.
 
hi to everybody :)
you excuse if I go off topic ,I wanted to greet you friends and to announce the birth of my baby :) I have become father for the second time:cheers:

I hope to find soon leisure time to restart the PS3 and SCC.... :D:rolleyes:


regards :cheers::) ciaoooooo!!!!
 
hi to everybody :)
you excuse if I go off topic ,I wanted to greet you friends and to announce the birth of my baby :) I have become father for the second time:cheers:

I hope to find soon leisure time to restart the PS3 and SCC.... :D:rolleyes:


regards :cheers::) ciaoooooo!!!!

👍:cheers: CONGRATULATIONS!
 
I do hope the AI will get improved a lot with a future patch. I think it's obviously the most significant problem with this game. I agree the AI in Ferrari Challenge was superior to SCC.

For me one major improvement in SCC over FC is the framerate. FC had frequent stuttering which got quite off putting. To me it seems this was resolved by toning down the graphics, especially the distant backgrounds lower res. Of course toning down the graphics could never be an option for a FC patch. The other major improvement over FC is car handling.

I too wish there was a game with the handling of SCC, the graphics engine and damage modeling of Grid/Dirt, the AI of superstars v8 and the car and track selection of NFS Shift. But there isn't, so when the AI frustration gets a bit too much in SCC, I just do some solitary laps against the clock to remind myself how much fun it is just to race a car around the circuit in SCC.
 
Holy smoke! I seem to have opened the flood-gates of discontent! :sick:

Ahh, that's only because you're such a positive person, Biggles. ;)

@ Alan: I actually went through a similar feeling of general discontent after the 250LM race. The lag issues, the punters, the fact that Arvore was trying to get into the lobby constantly and couldn't connect, it all left me feeling rather disconnected from the game and I felt the event just simply wasn't that much fun.

I wonder if the connection issues you experienced last night in particular had to do with an unusual amount of PSN traffic with the 3.10 firmware update going live. On some nights, connection issues seem decidedly worse than others and perhaps last night that was the culprit.

But I would like to make one suggestion. A lot of your complaints about the handling, physics and general dynamics, could be corrected with a simple change. Have you ever considered using a wheel? I admit, I'm a certified wheel snob. I couldn't imagine playing a racing game without one and if there was no option to use one, well, you wouldn't see me anymore. To me, games of any sort, and racing games in particular, are always striving for realism. And a good part of that realism, at least for me personally, comes from having a good, solid, FFB wheel in my hands. It brings me much closer to the feeling of drivng a real car. And as I've said many times, the FFB in SCC and FC is better than just about any other PS3 racing game I've played. And I think playing this game with the controller, well, you're just missing out on the very thing that makes it so special.

A half way decent (used) wheel is hardly more than the price of a new game. And you can get a fold-away wheel stand that hardly takes any space. The odd 'auto correction' that you experience, the strange oversteer, all of this would be a thing of the past. And you might find that you simply enjoy the game play much more as it becomes much more engrossing. Granted, you might find your lap times suffer. A bit. ;) At least in the beginning.
 
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Interesting read here... Been off shooting machine guns online for the past couple of weeks (You all have probably noticed anyway from my online status :)) come back here and theres an over-abundance of reading material. But is SCC really that lacking? I mean switching over form GT5:P to SCC was a rude awakening for me. Ok, the graphics are not all that great if you compare them but as mentioned many times before, I totally agree the FFB and immersion in the game is just phenomenal. It felt more like a real car to me and the sensation of weight transfer is just so much more evident. This prompted me to practice and atleast get to the point where I could do laps at a decent speed. I dont understand why everyone is being SO critical about this game? Or is that the case with all sims being played? We know System 3 is not the biggest game company and I cant say Im up to date with the whole FC fiasco, because I didnt get into it until news of SCC was out... but in the end I do consider it better title then Shift at the moment because Shift comes from a HUGE company like EA (With a well known bad reputation for buggy games) but is really the buggiest game ive ever played... and its almost 2010... games should never be released in that type of state... Anyway if my views are a bit flawed that could stem from the fact I have not nearly spent as much time with SCC as I have with, lets say... GT for example. So my views could be limited by the overall time spent with the game.

@AlanG:

As Jeff stated I would also recommend getting a wheel or atleast trying it if you havent. Because in-game if I enter a corner to fast I understeer badly and recovering costs MASSIVE amounts of time... in GT its a lot easier to recover from understeer situations...

-edit: Congratulations Pino-R! Good luck with everything.
 
I wonder if those of us here in the FC/SCC 'fanclub' just see things differently or if the guys from SRT are just in an alternate reality universe. I know a few people who were put off by the deadzone in FC and just didn't like it. But aside from those few exceptions, nearly everybody I ever spoke to who's played FC/SCC with a wheel agrees that is has arguably the best FFB in PS3 land.

They even rated nfs shift better(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3LIaxX1PHE) how is that possible???:crazy::crazy::crazy:👎
 
:D

I see you don't agree with what I wrote under "7" of my Jessica Lopez's review.

:D

she is deff. better than jessica lopez(just now reallized that was really her name what an irony) and way beyond the 7 classification check her out in these clothes...( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1-LgGAN1pE

their reviews suck but they deff.chose well the hostess...:)LOL
 
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I can understand why Shift would get a good review from a general game reviewer - there's a lot that's excellent about Shift. It's a little harder to understand how a sim-racing reviewer would praise Shift far above SCC.

My major complaint against SCC is the fact that it doesn't represent a significant improvement, in almost any way, over FC. This may be less important to someone who did not buy & play FC. My primary reason for playing SCC is to reconnect with the (small) international community of committed FC racers. All the best online racing I have had was with FC. Short of that, I'd have to say that the best PS3 racing sim, by a long shot, is the first one to come out: F1CE.

jjaisli's explanation of how the whole deal came together may have some truth to it, but either way, there seem to have been some pretty stupid business decisions made.
 
I can understand why Shift would get a good review from a general game reviewer - there's a lot that's excellent about Shift. It's a little harder to understand how a sim-racing reviewer would praise Shift far above SCC.

My major complaint against SCC is the fact that it doesn't represent a significant improvement, in almost any way, over FC. This may be less important to someone who did not buy & play FC. My primary reason for playing SCC is to reconnect with the (small) international community of committed FC racers. All the best online racing I have had was with FC. Short of that, I'd have to say that the best PS3 racing sim, by a long shot, is the first one to come out: F1CE.

jjaisli's explanation of how the whole deal came together may have some truth to it, but either way, there seem to have been some pretty stupid business decisions made.

Yup, Shaun also loves Grid. I'm starting to lose faith in these guys.
 
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