SUV's are obsolete

[Jay]

I'll have to talk to him about it, because I can't think of a reason that you would need one. Not being rude, I just can't.

Wow this could get ugly


I think blazins type opinion on the Dodge Sprinter is the very reason DC named it a Dodge instead of Mercedes like they did everywhere else (including here).

 

[GT4_Rule]

This is already half getting ugly

I hate the looks of the Sprinter van, that thing looks very, very awkward. No kidding. Just get a Ford Econoline and you can carry as much things, but without the already-strained Inline 4 engine (which means gobs of power) and without getting the "what the hell is that??" looks.

 

[Wolfe]

The anti-SUV attitude really grates on me. You guys drool over 5mpg 500 horespower beasts that hold 2 passengers and a backpack, and have trouble crossing speedbumps. But a 20mpg SUV that comfortably seats 7 and can carry large furniture and plants, tow, and drive down a bumpy road, is just too much for you to deal with.

Is it necessary for life? No. Is it nice? Yes. So get over it.

There aren't thousands upon thousands of 5mpg 500-horsepower beasts being driven around by every other Joe/Jane Schmoe, now are there? Not to mention every SUV/truck-enthusiast's dream truck/SUV is just as pointless and gas-inefficient. Sure, I lust for the 18mpg V10 BMW M5, but I drive a 30mpg inline-4 BMW 318i.

Also, my major problem with SUVs is that, most of the time, they are never used for anything more than carrying "2 passengers and a backpack," and the owners are afraid to cross those same speedbumps at anything but a minute crawl in their "big, bad, tough" SUVs.

I'm glad that you and Blazin' know so many people who actually use their SUVs properly, even if they don't take them "off-road." But that doesn't change the fact that millions of SUV drivers commute alone in them. That doesn't change the fact that many SUV owners feel completely invincible while driving them, putting every other driver around them at risk. That doesn't change the fact that many of these same SUV owners complain about our (still very low by world standards) gas prices here in the U.S., when they refuse to even change their driving habits to drive more efficiently. And that still doesn't change the fact that European or Japanese wagons can do everything that most families need from an SUV, towing capacity and ground clearance be damned.

 

[Joey D]

That's like saying a Pinto would explode by hitting it with a shopping cart. Car and Driver tried to tip it over (courtesy of John Phillips), and the ASM came on. The Sprinter is a marvel of packaging, and I highly doubt you could tip it over easily.

Little tires and high center of gravity. Physics wins on this one.

They still sell them though, don't they? They cost $150,000 for a uncomfortable 4 seat hog, that really has little more off-road ability than a 15 year old Cherokee. For that money, you could get a far better Mercedes Benz G-55 AMG which could go alot faster than the H1 and go alot farther than it off-road too. The only reason the U.S. military bothered with the HMMWV was because they were designed to tackle Soviet winters, which was something the CJ couldn't do because of the skinny tires on the military version of the CJ at the time. They only still use the HMMWV because it's cheaper to do that than comission a replacement.

I live near Detroit, the GM capital of the world, and I've seriously have seen maybe 10 H1's in the past 3 years. They are a niche vehicle that people buy when they have a ton of money. But you are wrong, Hummer H1's are awesome off road. They are hard to get stuck and can drive over almost anything. They aren't fast, but who needs speed? I think you should try to find some videos of the H1, they work extremely well off the pavement.

Fine. Then buy a Passat Wagon 4motion. It's cheaper than the Tahoe and does everything and is safer than the Tahoe, and it can handle muddy backroads. I hope you get my point. The Volvo is a crossover with a surprisingly high amount of off-road ability, and thus really can't be compared to the big body on frame Tahoe.

Let me say this again...NO ON BUYS STATION WAGONS IN THE US! It's a known fact that people do not buy them in the states. Yesterday I saw one station wagon and it was that ugly Magnum SRT-8 and it even had M plates on it. Also I bet dollars to donuts that the Passat wagon could not pull a 22 foot boat, all of the gear, 3 kids, the dog, mom, dad, and still be more efficent then a Tahoe...if it could even handel that weight.

Many people buy Tahoe's because they can tow 8,200 lbs. and haul everything with out breaking a swet.

 

[Dave A]

But a Passat 4 motion could handle the weight, I'd reccoment an Audi RS6 estate, they can do all that and look cooler at the same time. But that's preferrence. Why don't people buy estates in the US?

 

[Danoff]

There aren't thousands upon thousands of 5mpg 500-horsepower beasts being driven around by every other Joe/Jane Schmoe, now are there?

What does that have to do with anything? If you want one, that's all that matters.

Not to mention every SUV/truck-enthusiast's dream truck/SUV is just as pointless and gas-inefficient.

I doubt it's just as pointless, but probably more gas inefficient.

Sure, I lust for the 18mpg V10 BMW M5, but I drive a 30mpg inline-4 BMW 318i.

Someone out there will always get better gas mileage, take my car for example... The point is that doesn't enable you to lift your nose at anyone getting 10mpg less than you.

Also, my major problem with SUVs is that, most of the time, they are never used for anything more than carrying "2 passengers and a backpack,"

So? Imagine for a moment a family of 5 that has garage space for two cars. They buy a hybrid and an SUV. The SUV is for the weekends, the hybrid is for the one with the longer commute. Not everyone has garage space and money enough to own a car perfectly suited for each outing.

and the owners are afraid to cross those same speedbumps at anything but a minute crawl in their "big, bad, tough" SUVs.

I don't like to unecessarily destroy my shocks either. When I owned an SUV I was careful with it when I went offroad too. But I went places I won't even try to go in my RSX.

I'm glad that you and Blazin' know so many people who actually use their SUVs properly, even if they don't take them "off-road." But that doesn't change the fact that millions of SUV drivers commute alone in them.

When you only own one or two cars and you want the capability of an SUV (which I outlined earlier), you have to suck it up.

That doesn't change the fact that many SUV owners feel completely invincible while driving them, putting every other driver around them at risk.

Don't blame the car for bad drivers.

That doesn't change the fact that many of these same SUV owners complain about our (still very low by world standards) gas prices here in the U.S., when they refuse to even change their driving habits to drive more efficiently.

They're pissed off that in order to save money on gas, they have to sacrifice capability in their car.

And that still doesn't change the fact that European or Japanese wagons can do everything that most families need from an SUV, towing capacity and ground clearance be damned.

Show me one with three rows of seats please (not that you can't, I just want to know which ones have it). I've looked and I haven't found many.

 

[Joey D]

Because for the same price you can get an SUV, in fact I bet an SUV is cheaper. And you might not need a Tahoe, you can get a Trailblazer for around 24 grand.

An A6 wagon is already more expensive then a fully loaded Tahoe and I don't even think they sell RS6's in the states (I'm more then likely wrong).

But back in the 70's everyone had wagons, and now that the kids of that generation have grown, they don't want to own the cars of their parents. Just like when my generation hits 40 we won't own SUV's because our parents drove them. It's the class "I don't wanna be like my parnets". At least this is what my mom tells me.

 

[Joey D]

Show me one with three rows of seats please (not that you can't, I just want to know which ones have it). I've looked and I haven't found many.

I believe there is a Mercedes wagon that has a rear facing thrid row seat.

 

[Danoff]

Cramming a few kids in the back of this (while possible), isn't as appealing or as safe (in case of a rear end collision) as the tahoe (see attached).

Not to mention that $53k STARTING sticker. I don't think the rear facing things count as a "row".

 

[Dave A]

Tbh I'd rather a Renault Espace than a Tahoe, I'd rather an RS4 estate than a Tahoe, cheaper too over here. You can't say one is better than the other overall. A Tahoe has it's uses, it's better than an RS4 estate in luggage space, but if I had 3 kid's I'd go for the RS6 instead. It's preferrence, theres nothing wrong with preferring an SUV to an Estate or to add more to it, an MPV, but to both sides, stop trying to upstage one over the other. Your starting to sound like your taking this personaly.

 

[Danoff]

Tbh I'd rather a Renault Espace

*goes to add the espace to the "ugliest production car" thread*

 

[Dave A]

Than a Tahoe, you bet, the Tahoe is less economical, uglier imo and costs far more. I don't like the Espace by any means, but I'd rather one to a Tahoe.

 

[Joey D]

I think the problem here is that you have two cultures with different ways of doing things. Europeans are way different then Americans.

And we don't even get Renaults here...thank god.

 

[Danny]

*goes to add the espace to the "ugliest production car" thread*

Sorry, I'm in serious disagreement mode here.

I love the styling of the Espace.

 

[Dave A]

I think the problem here is that you have two cultures with different ways of doing things. Europeans are way different then Americans.

And we don't even get Renaults here...thank god.

Bingo 👍.

And we don't get Tahoe's over here thank god (exept for rhd imports) .

 

[Gil]

The funny thing is 10 years ago a audi A6 would be around the size of the current A4, The new jetta is about the size of a old passat and a new VW golf, 10 years ago would be smaller than a polo but bigger than a lupo.

Are we really cramped?

How did our parents manage or are we just spoilt?

With my parents it was just me and them. (My brother got married when I was two.)
We did most of our travelling in a Ford Country Squire Wagon that could haul a family of five in comfort, a family of 7 with a bit of a squeeze and the luggage on the roof.
My old man and I also used to rent a big open U-Haul trailer to haul firewood the 80 miles from Fort Hunter-Liggett. (More than a cord).
That old wagon wasn't anywhere near as big as "Big E" and it got about 12-14 MPG on the road (of course, there was a Holley 1050 feeding a 429 cid V-8).
My 6.0 liter Turbo-Diesel gets better mileage than that in the city, in horrible weather with the 4WD engaged. And I will hold 8 people, in comfort, AND the luggage inside.
And for those of you that think a diesel is a slug...My Excursion in no slouch, off the line or on a "kickdown" shift. It's no 'Vette, But I've suprised more than one 'Vette driver by NOT disappearing in his rear-view like he thought I would.

As I've already said, It isn't my daily driver. And I have a Chevy Venture for family trips in the greater Kansas City area. And for the record, The Venture gets 22 MPG, the Excursion gets 18-20 MPG. The 2-4 MPG trade-off is worth it to me. And the Excursion will absolutely BURY the Venture performance-wise.

Now, If I lived in Europe where the roads are narrower, and the turns are tighter, I would rethink my choices. But thanks the Eisenhower's and Truman's building all these wide straight roads, I have a car that excels on them.

 

[Colinod]

I attempted to convince my father to go with the Audi Allroad Quattro instead of the Avalanche, but he didn't think the Audi was man-enough for his persona. I can see where he is comming from, his name is Thor after all, but IMO the Audi has twice the practicality of the Avalanche, plus it is fun to drive, and gets better gas mileage overall.

Your dad's name is Thor? Adopt me!

 

[GT4_Rule]

Your dad's name is Thor? Adopt me!

You Scandinavian?

 

[Poverty]

I was gonna mention an espace too. Let me go find out how much that can haul. My friend has one and he calls it his spaceship. There are 7 people in theyre family and 4 of them are teenage boys. They also have a fiesta for when 5 or less of them are travelling somewhere. They dont seem to think theyre cramped otherwise theyd jump into the espace which has more space than a tahoe and alot more economical.

A espace can tow 4000lbs. More than enough for a 22 foot boat.

 

[Danoff]

 

[Poverty]

 

[Joey D]

Except we don't get an Espace in America.

 

[Danoff]

Except we don't get an Espace in America.

...and it's horrific.

 

[Jim Prower]

Except we don't get an Espace in America.

Ain't the Nissan Quest similar?

 

[Dave A]

In the sense that it's a people carrier, just like a Passat and a Mondeo are both mid sized saloons.

 

[Wolfe]

What does that have to do with anything? If you want one, that's all that matters.

My point is that automotive enthusiasts want those vehicles, but usually drive much-more-fuel-efficient ones. SUV drivers already drive vehicles with sub-par fuel economy.

I doubt it's just as pointless, but probably more gas inefficient.

Monster trucks, uber-Hummers, and anything else Tim "the Toolman" Taylor would probably lust over aren't particularly practical. Supercars are about as bad.

Someone out there will always get better gas mileage, take my car for example... The point is that doesn't enable you to lift your nose at anyone getting 10mpg less than you.

Huh? I think you misinterpreted me. I drool over a fuel-inefficient "supercar," but drive a slower, much-more-efficient one. I'm not lifting my nose at anyone.

So? Imagine for a moment a family of 5 that has garage space for two cars. They buy a hybrid and an SUV. The SUV is for the weekends, the hybrid is for the one with the longer commute. Not everyone has garage space and money enough to own a car perfectly suited for each outing.

That doesn't mean that everyone uses their SUV for SUV things on the weekend. Many people don't.

Also, I will reiterate once again that a wagon can do almost everything that a family would want to do over a weekend, except for climbing rocks, and towing (really) heavy boats.

When you only own one or two cars and you want the capability of an SUV (which I outlined earlier), you have to suck it up.

...and buy a European or Japanese wagon. Seriously, ground clearance and uber-massive towing capacity are overrated in this country. Especially because they're almost never used.

Second-hand European wagons can be had for similar prices to similarly-aged SUVs, and brand-new Japanese wagons can be had for similar prices to brand-new SUVs.

Don't blame the car for bad drivers.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. John Collegestudent in his rusty Geo Metro is also overly-confident in the high seating position, ground clearance, 4WD, and large weight of his car.

Don't blame the supercar for the people who discriminate against SUVs, then.

They're pissed off that in order to save money on gas, they have to sacrifice capability in their car.

That doesn't turn it into a logical or rational complaint. Either sacrifice capability, or pay more for gas. It's a really simple concept.

Show me one with three rows of seats please (not that you can't, I just want to know which ones have it). I've looked and I haven't found many.

The Mercedes that Blazin mentioned is the only one I can think of, unfortunately. Show me the statistics that show that the majority of SUV owners need that third row of seats.



You and Blazin can argue for seating capacity, off-road capability, and towing capacity all day long, but most SUVs are used for carrying 5 people, at most, and/or hauling camping supplies. A wagon does those things equally well.

(@Blazin before he brings up his "Wagons don't sell in America" argument: Just because something doesn't sell, doesn't mean that it shouldn't sell. You can't argue, "people should keep on killing each other, because people have always killed each other"...)

If the height, weight, and size of SUVs/trucks are really needed, then they should just be equipped with 4-cylinder engines, or, for towing, a larger, torquey 4- or 6-cylinder. The powerful, large engines that many SUVs currently have are not needed...

 

[agent kri]

Quote from BlazinXtreme:

"I live near Detroit, the GM capital of the world, and I've seriously have seen maybe 10 H1's in the past 3 years. They are a niche vehicle that people buy when they have a ton of money. But you are wrong, Hummer H1's are awesome off road. They are hard to get stuck and can drive over almost anything. They aren't fast, but who needs speed? I think you should try to find some videos of the H1, they work extremely well off the pavement."

I once saw a Lada Niva beating a Hummer off road... (and the Lada costs 10 times less than a Hummer)

 

[Danoff]

My point is that automotive enthusiasts want those vehicles, but usually drive much-more-fuel-efficient ones. SUV drivers already drive vehicles with sub-par fuel economy.

If you had the cash, you probably would too. Don't pretend that you're driving your car to save the environment, you're driving it because you can't afford a Ferrari.

Monster trucks, uber-Hummers, and anything else Tim "the Toolman" Taylor would probably lust over aren't particularly practical. Supercars are about as bad.

Supercars are pretty much the least practical car that can be owned.

Huh? I think you misinterpreted me. I drool over a fuel-inefficient "supercar," but drive a slower, much-more-efficient one. I'm not lifting my nose at anyone.

See above.

That doesn't mean that everyone uses their SUV for SUV things on the weekend. Many people don't.

How do you know? Did you ask them?

Also, I will reiterate once again that a wagon can do almost everything that a family would want to do over a weekend, except for climbing rocks, and towing (really) heavy boats.

That's simplifying it a bit. More below.

...and buy a European or Japanese wagon. Seriously, ground clearance and uber-massive towing capacity are overrated in this country. Especially because they're almost never used.

I owned an SUV and used the ground clearance on a daily (yes literally daily) basis. But I guarantee when I drove down the road I was just another example of someone who didn't need ground clearance to the casual observer who didn't know me.

Second-hand European wagons can be had for similar prices to similarly-aged SUVs, and brand-new Japanese wagons can be had for similar prices to brand-new SUVs.

Some people will never buy second-hand. There are plenty of reasons not to. More on why wagons aren't good enough below.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. John Collegestudent in his rusty Geo Metro is also overly-confident in the high seating position, ground clearance, 4WD, and large weight of his car.

Johnny Collegestudent is probably increadibly over-confident because he's young.

Don't blame the supercar for the people who discriminate against SUVs, then.

I don't. I think it's hypocritical to lust after a supercar and criticize people for actually owning cars that get better gas mileage.

That doesn't turn it into a logical or rational complaint. Either sacrifice capability, or pay more for gas. It's a really simple concept.

Sure that's the reality. But I think it's fine to complain about reality. In the end they have to cope, but they don't have to be happy about it.

The Mercedes that Blazin mentioned is the only one I can think of, unfortunately. Show me the statistics that show that the majority of SUV owners need that third row of seats.

Now you're on to something. I agree, most SUV owners probably don't even HAVE three rows of seats (it isn't standard equipment in many of them, and many styles don't have that as an option). And I think it's almost useless to purchase an SUV that doesn't have them.

You and Blazin can argue for seating capacity, off-road capability, and towing capacity all day long, but most SUVs are used for carrying 5 people, at most, and/or hauling camping supplies. A wagon does those things equally well.

Again, how do you know? Did you ask them? Did you do a survey? Or are you making assumptions about the people you see on the road?

(@Blazin before he brings up his "Wagons don't sell in America" argument: Just because something doesn't sell, doesn't mean that it shouldn't sell. You can't argue, "people should keep on killing each other, because people have always killed each other"...)

Agreed.

If the height, weight, and size of SUVs/trucks are really needed, then they should just be equipped with 4-cylinder engines, or, for towing, a larger, torquey 4- or 6-cylinder. The powerful, large engines that many SUVs currently have are not needed...

People don't buy vehicles for one purpose and one purpose alone (except supercars). Most people like a versatile vehicle that can do lots of things, which is why they aren't designed to do the bare minimum and typically aren't designed for one specific purpose and nothing else.

 

[Dougboy]

what happened to this thread? i thought it was about the 4matic S-class? The title didnt literally mean that SUV's are obsolete. It was just a catch phrase refering to what the S-Class is capable of.

Anyways... continue on with the SUV and station wagon discussion

 

[Poverty]

Quote from BlazinXtreme:

"I live near Detroit, the GM capital of the world, and I've seriously have seen maybe 10 H1's in the past 3 years. They are a niche vehicle that people buy when they have a ton of money. But you are wrong, Hummer H1's are awesome off road. They are hard to get stuck and can drive over almost anything. They aren't fast, but who needs speed? I think you should try to find some videos of the H1, they work extremely well off the pavement."

I once saw a Lada Niva beating a Hummer off road... (and the Lada costs 10 times less than a Hummer)

Check and mate


Seriously though only about 1% of SUV owners require a vehicle with big ride height. When you go to the caribean and go to tourist attractions which are sometimes way up in a mountain somewhere with a dirt track, you will usually be sitting in a toyota or nissa car or people carrier. All the natives drive cars and they dont even have propper roads in most places. Just pothole after pothole with solid rocks pertruding from the ground.

Also I remember that paris hilton and that richie girl were parked somewhere in their dodge ram and it got stuck in the mud. Why? because the suv didnt even have AWD.