The AI thread

In four weeks, we might know just about everything that will be in the game, so keep fingers and toes crossed.
 
Main thing that strikes me with the vids (1st one on pg1) was how much quicker the game runs on bumper cam than cockpit. I watched the first couple of mins, then skipped to the last minute, unless he was in a different car frame rate was way different..??
 
chepe371
I don't know if this has been brought up but the video that's currently the first post on the home page, if you look towards the end of the video int he replay where the pile up occurs, you can clearly see a red Lancer i believe, exiting the last turn and driving AT LEAST 50-100m only to drive right into the pile up even though there was a clear lane to avoid it.

I KNOW I KNOW It is a 3 minute build, but for all the AI tweaks so far, i would have thought that one would be obvious.

Love absolutely everything about the game so far and can only look up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gtplanet.net%2F&feature=player_embedded

4:12 Red Lancer (VI or VII) exits turn.
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i was just about to post the exact same thing after watching the video. The two things AI related in GT that really bug me are the cars crashing into you when you are clearly in the way and they have years to slow down or actually MOVE OFF THEIR LINE and the lack of grid starts!
 
Punknoodle
The two things AI related in GT that really bug me are the cars crashing into you when you are clearly in the way and they have years to slow down or actually MOVE OFF THEIR LINE and the lack of grid starts!
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Yep I noticed that in a couple of videos too ... the AI does seem somewhat improved although there is still evidently a long way to go.
 
yes AI is noticeable improved.... but it must be so.... they reprogrammed a new car physic to improve the racing challenge.. like endurance in jgtc, nascar... more longevity yes...
 
I've just played the DiRT2 demo with my wheel and manual transmission. And damn, that game is awesome!!! That rally stage in Morocco is very nice and the AI of other drivers on the stage is also very well. I hope that Gran Turismo does a great thing with their rally stages. In GT4, they had better not add it to my opinion. The AI is not at it's best point. As you can see in the GamesCom videos, other drivers will just smash your car when you spin around. I hope for Flag rules and thet stuff. Ah, I can't wait for this game and please let there be cockpit cams in all cars!!! :drool:
 
What the improved AI doesn't do:

Slow down or in anyway try to avoid a pileup that is already at a standstill and doesn't act at all rationally when part of that pileup (ie just floors it and guns it's way through you rather than letting you straighten out or go around you).

Other improvements: Defnitely welcomed!

The fact that this still remains: Totally inexcuseable and unless you honestly can say you NEVER get in an accident, it WILL rear it's ugly head and ruin the immersion.

EDIT didn't see page 2 and noticed that punknoodle and cheapie already commented on this in this thread. I am sorry but it is just ridiculous that this still exists... other games have addressed this YEARS ago.
 
Devedander
I am sorry but it is just ridiculous that this still exists... other games have addressed this YEARS ago.
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Yeah... that must be why all the PC sims have cars that drive like bugs are controlling them, grinding through chicanes and what-not. ;)

There is a remote possibility that you'll be able to progress through GT5 via online racing, if the bug driving in PC sims seems that much better than the bug driving in GT5. I mean, if it really bugs you that much...
 
Well that is a not really a bug. I think he means that the technologie of graphics and sound has got better, but the opponent drivers are still dumb drivers who drive on a single route. I want to see more crashes and spin outs in the races. :D Yellow flags pacecars. :)
 
chepe371
I don't know if this has been brought up but the video that's currently the first post on the home page, if you look towards the end of the video int he replay where the pile up occurs, you can clearly see a red Lancer i believe, exiting the last turn and driving AT LEAST 50-100m only to drive right into the pile up even though there was a clear lane to avoid it.

I KNOW I KNOW It is a 3 minute build, but for all the AI tweaks so far, i would have thought that one would be obvious.

Love absolutely everything about the game so far and can only look up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPM2g-UsCM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gtplanet.net%2F&feature=player_embedded

4:12 Red Lancer (VI or VII) exits turn.
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I saw that too , horrible, they need a major work on the AI, its been so neglected for many many years now, it absurd watching that kind of things in a game like GT, its so unbalanced how good is in some areas and how bad is in others, you see almost 0 evolution in AI and collision physics. Thankfully looks like the old collision physics are gone (i have yet to see 2 cars that doesnt get damaga crash together to be sure).

I hope PD get the AI to the level that its need to be in the final version.
 
Tenacious D
Yeah... that must be why all the PC sims have cars that drive like bugs are controlling them, grinding through chicanes and what-not. ;)

There is a remote possibility that you'll be able to progress through GT5 via online racing, if the bug driving in PC sims seems that much better than the bug driving in GT5. I mean, if it really bugs you that much...
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I don't get why I bring up one thing and you basically say "yeah well other games have other problems"... it doesn't have anything to do with it.

The fact is that GT5 is showing signs that the AI suffers from at least one HUGE flaw that has always been in GT and really should have been fixed by now.

I haven't played ever game out there but here are some suggestions:

Play either forza or Toca 2 or 3.

Note how the drivers actually REACT to the presense of the human car (I think toca does it better actually).

Get in a pileup and in many or most cases the AI drivers will do decent jobs of handling it then going around you.

Now play any GT game... it feels like you shouldn't be there and the oponnent cars are drones that "MUST DRIVE THE LINE". The notice each other ok but it's like you are invisible to them, and if they run into you, they just push the gas harder to get back on the line regardless of what's actually happening.

Don't get me wrong, cars that actually take corners at decent speeds is great!

But cars that STILL don't react to the human player totally ruins it.

And again, this has been solved for the most part in many "lesser" racers that are now years old.

GT has always done some things well (pretty graphics and huge car collections) but they keep promising to address the things they don't do well, this is definitely one of them and it's one that there is no excuse for.

Watch the front page GT5 video at about 4 min. The pileup is ridiculous with cars just pushing their way through, and that red car at the end just puts the icing on the cake.
 
Tenacious D
Yeah... that must be why all the PC sims have cars that drive like bugs are controlling them, grinding through chicanes and what-not. ;)

There is a remote possibility that you'll be able to progress through GT5 via online racing, if the bug driving in PC sims seems that much better than the bug driving in GT5. I mean, if it really bugs you that much...
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Huh? Simbin titles (GTR, GTR2, Race, GTR evo, GT legends) has always had pretty intelligent AI. Even LFS used to have "on the rails" AI, but has now changed to AI that is intelligent enough to make space (though they are still a bit stupid and sometimes if you get in the right position they'll randomly brake to "avoid a crash" that was never going tto happen).

Anyway, with GT5, I hope the AI isn't just technically intelligent but also race-smart. Forza 1 has AI that wasn't bad technically, but dumb as hell when it came to actual race intelligence... punting you off the track and such.
 
The driver is one of the decent ones I've seen from the GC09 videos posted all this week. And he's getting a good competiton from the AI. Even the R8 that he overtook on the first lap in still within striking distance in the second lap. I don't want to read too much into what is basically a show demo but hopefully it's indication of the kind of improvement (to the AI) we might see in GT5.

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Ok... am I seeing things or does the AI car sustain damage at 2:49 when it hits the player's?

85909063.jpg


the front bonnet looks like it crumples

and then at 2:50 the front bonnet looks very distorted

19864302.jpg
 
From this veiw it does but we might need a closer inspection to confirm .To me something is wrong this might need an explanation since we only saw damage on the subaru and none on the AI cars in the replays .
 
What you are seeing is one the black and yellow barriers behind the car. It's in the just the right spot to look like the hood.
 
Watch it closely in HD, what you are seeing on that white cars front wheel is the combination of the artwork on the body, a big wheel openining, the wheel being at a very sharp angle and light bloom.

It looks like the hood is all bent up and you can see under the fender.

In reality the car is fully intact, the black shadow of the wheel well blends into the black stripe on the fender and gives it the look of a huge hole with an uneven topside, and the fact that you can see the whole wheel at that point makes the illusion even more tricky to spot.

But no, you don't see damage.
 
As a Game AI programmer, I just want to say that creating a 'good, high standard' AI system is really hard, as most people want the AI to act as if it was another human player. Given enough time, it might be possible to simulate that in a racing game, but the amount of processing power required would limit you to few opponents, or a knock back on other areas of the game (graphics, physics), or maybe both with the current hardware.

So you compromise, getting the AI to act the best you can with the resources available to you. This obviously results in situations such as the crash scenes in the videos posted before. People will pick up on these points and declare your AI as rubbish (which makes all us AI programmers die a little on the inside :( ).

Yes, other games may do it better, but they probably have more resources available to the AI, or are using some new technique they have developed (which is the case with Forza if I remember correctly). I'm sure the AI guys at PD have a great racing AI sitting there on their hard drives, but to get everything on the console they've had to cut parts out and simplify it. Hopefully one day they'll get a chance to get it into the game :)

/ramble over ;)

Ranek
 
WolfRacer543
Huh? Simbin titles (GTR, GTR2, Race, GTR evo, GT legends) has always had pretty intelligent AI. Even LFS used to have "on the rails" AI, but has now changed to AI that is intelligent enough to make space (though they are still a bit stupid and sometimes if you get in the right position they'll randomly brake to "avoid a crash" that was never going tto happen).

Anyway, with GT5, I hope the AI isn't just technically intelligent but also race-smart. Forza 1 has AI that wasn't bad technically, but dumb as hell when it came to actual race intelligence... punting you off the track and such.
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I really hated some of FM1's A.I

Very often on tracks with 90 degree corners after long straits it would out brake itself. Really annoying when you are just ahead of them. They fixed the in FM2 and by the looks FM3s A.I is going to be even better.

p.s I don't believe T10 has ever failed to deliver on A.I claims.
 
Devedander
Watch it closely in HD, what you are seeing on that white cars front wheel is the combination of the artwork on the body, a big wheel openining, the wheel being at a very sharp angle and light bloom.

It looks like the hood is all bent up and you can see under the fender.

In reality the car is fully intact, the black shadow of the wheel well blends into the black stripe on the fender and gives it the look of a huge hole with an uneven topside, and the fact that you can see the whole wheel at that point makes the illusion even more tricky to spot.

But no, you don't see damage.
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Hehe yeah that's a very good point.

Hands up for tricked!

*puts hand up*

One can only wish ^_^
 
Ranek
As a Game AI programmer, I just want to say that creating a 'good, high standard' AI system is really hard, as most people want the AI to act as if it was another human player. Given enough time, it might be possible to simulate that in a racing game, but the amount of processing power required would limit you to few opponents, or a knock back on other areas of the game (graphics, physics), or maybe both with the current hardware.

So you compromise, getting the AI to act the best you can with the resources available to you. This obviously results in situations such as the crash scenes in the videos posted before. People will pick up on these points and declare your AI as rubbish (which makes all us AI programmers die a little on the inside :( ).

Yes, other games may do it better, but they probably have more resources available to the AI, or are using some new technique they have developed (which is the case with Forza if I remember correctly). I'm sure the AI guys at PD have a great racing AI sitting there on their hard drives, but to get everything on the console they've had to cut parts out and simplify it. Hopefully one day they'll get a chance to get it into the game :)

/ramble over ;)

Ranek
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I definitely agree on the complexities of AI programing. I would say in order of difficulty it's first, then good game engine, then good graphics and good sound.

But we are talking PS3 here... we are talking 5 years... we are talking the same system that was recently touted for it's ability to do just this (split AI to it's only processor) with KZ2... We are talking THE company, THE game and THE system that it should happen on if it ever happens.

As an AI programmer I am surprised you can even try to forgive what we have seen here... this really doesn't look like doing the most with what you have, it looks like someone lazy or incapable of doing better. I mean from the ground up in a year or two, totally forgiveable... but look at this, 5 years since GT4, and GT4's AI already as a baseline... you just have to improve on it. It's not even a from the ground up sort of project!

I mean the AI on 24hr Lemans on the Dreamcast was better and that game was pushing the limits of that system in every regard (24 cars on track at once that looked gorgeous, different car types on the same track, changing weather and time... on a dreamcast!).

I am not saying it's easy, I am not saying it's not a huge challenge... I am just saying that with the competition doing what it's doing, it's just not excuseable.

Just off the top of my head:

24 hr lemans
Toca Race Driver (2-3)
Rallysport (1-2)
Grid
Dirt
NFS underground (1-2)

I mean the list goes on and gets surprisingly low on the list in terms of production value and time spent on the games... we are talking a long time ago and games MUCH less sim oriented getting this right (well at least making decent attempts and getting passable results).
 
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Devedander
I definitely agree on the complexities of AI programing. I would say in order of difficulty it's first, then good game engine, then good graphics and good sound.

But we are talking PS3 here... we are talking 5 years... we are talking the same system that was recently touted for it's ability to do just this (split AI to it's only processor) with KZ2... We are talking THE company, THE game and THE system that it should happen on if it ever happens.

As an AI programmer I am surprised you can even try to forgive what we have seen here... this really doesn't look like doing the most with what you have, it looks like someone lazy or incapable of doing better. I mean from the ground up in a year or two, totally forgiveable... but look at this, 5 years since GT4, and GT4's AI already as a baseline... you just have to improve on it. It's not even a from the ground up sort of project!

I mean the AI on 24hr Lemans on the Dreamcast was better and that game was pushing the limits of that system in every regard (24 cars on track at once that looked gorgeous, different car types on the same track, changing weather and time... on a dreamcast!).

I am not saying it's easy, I am not saying it's not a huge challenge... I am just saying that with the competition doing what it's doing, it's just not excuseable.

Just off the top of my head:

24 hr lemans
Toca Race Driver (2-3)
Rallysport (1-2)
Grid
Dirt
NFS underground (1-2)

I mean the list goes on and gets surprisingly low on the list in terms of production value and time spent on the games... we are talking a long time ago and games MUCH less sim oriented getting this right (well at least making decent attempts and getting passable results).
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I'm not sure that I'm here trying to defend what we see here, just trying to explain it really. I have no idea what type of effort the AI Programmers (and I damn well hope its programmers and not programmer) at PD are putting into this iteration of the AI, but if my experiances are anything to go by, they probably have a much better system running on their demo builds at some point in the last five years, but as with every game, things get cut, features have to be dumbed down to allow this and that (and this being GT, i imagine the physics take up a lot of the cell's processing time) and you end up with something that works 80% of the time really well, but can't handle the occasional events that require lots of processing.

But yeah, its late at night here (3:35am), and I've had a few beers, so take what I say with a grain of salt ;)
 
Ranek
I'm not sure that I'm here trying to defend what we see here, just trying to explain it really. I have no idea what type of effort the AI Programmers (and I damn well hope its programmers and not programmer) at PD are putting into this iteration of the AI, but if my experiances are anything to go by, they probably have a much better system running on their demo builds at some point in the last five years, but as with every game, things get cut, features have to be dumbed down to allow this and that (and this being GT, i imagine the physics take up a lot of the cell's processing time) and you end up with something that works 80% of the time really well, but can't handle the occasional events that require lots of processing.

But yeah, its late at night here (3:35am), and I've had a few beers, so take what I say with a grain of salt ;)
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I understand what you are saying but I don't think it applies here. What you are saying is all valid on it's own but it doesn't fit in this situation.

Even if it was ONE programmer working on AI for 2 years, the improvements are not much and he missed the glaring issues. I remind you again, he has GT4 to build off of, he just has to ADD to it. So if you look at what the differences look like between this and GT4, its underwhelming even for 1 part time programmer.

As for the cell, Sony touted the cells power to be exactly in this area: Breaking it apart so each cell can do its own job. Now Forza arguably is doing a lot with physics, its doing a lot with graphics and its doing a lot with sound... if that can be done on the 360 with its triple cores but not on the PS3 to a reasonably close extent, then either the cell is not nearly as good as it is supposed to be or someone is dropping the ball on this game.

Finally if it IS a decision between super pretty graphics and solid game AI I can't respect the decision to give up on the actual gameplay experience in favor of the graphics. I know we all want an awesome looking game, but it really feels wrong if the ulitimate racing simulator focuses less on racing and more on looking good. Even madden makes advances every year and doesnt juts go for prettier every year (although when they pretty much did that you saw the same unhappy response from those fans).
 
Ranek
As a Game AI programmer, I just want to say that creating a 'good, high standard' AI system is really hard, as most people want the AI to act as if it was another human player. Given enough time, it might be possible to simulate that in a racing game, but the amount of processing power required would limit you to few opponents, or a knock back on other areas of the game (graphics, physics), or maybe both with the current hardware.
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I'm sure programming AI is very difficult and requires a lot of power, however there are games that have AI which is sufficiently intelligent. GTR has always had pretty smart AI. Its not as random as the noobs you see racing online, but its smart enough to make space for you when you are coming up the inside and if you set the difficulty high enough its smart enough to make a move on you without causing an accident.

The only reason I race online is because its more entertaining to race against stupid humans than intelligent AI :p
 
Devedander
Finally if it IS a decision between super pretty graphics and solid game AI I can't respect the decision to give up on the actual gameplay experience in favor of the graphics. I know we all want an awesome looking game, but it really feels wrong if the ulitimate racing simulator focuses less on racing and more on looking good. Even madden makes advances every year and doesnt juts go for prettier every year (although when they pretty much did that you saw the same unhappy response from those fans).
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Yep, I agree. The graphics in GT have always disappointed me, because it's clear effort was wasted there instead of important areas. If PD came out and said they had to drop the graphics to GT3 levels for superior physics, life like AI, and advanced damage, it would be the best GT5 news I've ever heard.
 
WolfRacer543
Huh? Simbin titles (GTR, GTR2, Race, GTR evo, GT legends) has always had pretty intelligent AI.
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Actually, the GTR series is precisely what I was referring to. ;)

And okay, I was overstating the behavior of bots in PC games just a scouche, but just. I was really stunned to see the bot behavior in GTR Evo, and just a bit underwhelmed.

Exorcet
If PD came out and said they had to drop the graphics to GT3 levels for superior physics, life like AI, and advanced damage, it would be the best GT5 news I've ever heard.
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Ew... well, you aren't going to get a lot of agreement there. While I agree that GT3 and 4 still look better than most PC sims out even today, and the thought of 40 cars on the Nurburgring with 39 bots all driving intelligently gives me the wiggles, I just couldn't stand the thought of losing those drop dead gorgeous replays and Photo Mode shots that resemble real life images.

But hey, every PC sim ever made is just waiting for you to buy it! :lol:
 
The things that were written in this topic are true, buttt... I think that the AI wasn't upgraded that much... As we can see in many videos, the AI is still ignoring your presence in the track... They run like there nobody in front of them, they do not try to ward off from you, and it dissapointed me a lot!
 

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