The Carmagedonn Thread: FCA and "Consolidation"

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This is just a guess but GM would probably partner with whoever buys Opel, at least for a little while.
 
Saab and small car? does not compute.

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...What will happen when GM does sell Opel? Will there be an engineer transfer or what?

Well, I think Joey's point is fairly strong at the moment. Even if GM gives up control of Opel, they will still be partnered with them in some way/shape/form (to what extent, I do not know).

The other assumption is that GM-Daewoo may take over the engineering on a lot of the smaller cars, GM-Australia and GM-North America handling most everything else. Personally, I'm uncertain of what can come of it. We've seen an increasing amount of work being done by the engineers in Detroit, which is a good sign.... But considering how much work Opel has done in total since 1999, that really makes me wonder where things will go.
 
Len, you forgot that america sees all cars as one size down, didn't you?
 
Hmmm, I guess it actually is possible to take over the world(at least, the Auto World).
 
That is not a small car. Well, perhaps for the australia and US it is, but not here.
If my numbers are right, it was within an inch of the Mk. III Escort it eventually ended up being sold against. Not to mention the 96, which was sold for so long that it was eventually passed in size by the Escort before finally retiring.
 
Joey: I finally spotted that D-OH!

you're telling me THAT ( edit: spotted corner of pic) is escort sized? that's a TINY car for those of us in the latter half of Gen X...at least the friggin Basketball stars I went to school with.
 
Chrysler to Close 25% of its Dealer Network

That would be 789 dealers across the United States, a move that is probably smart, but still full of a lot of problems, particularly with the memory associated with the smaller dealers. I had a look at the list of closings here in Michigan (only 40 are going), surprisingly NONE of the dealers are closing in Grand Rapids. We're losing two prestigious dealers in Holland, which is unfortunate, but I assume they think they're close enough to Grand Rapids (well, actually Grandville) to not make a difference.

GM is supposed to be closing over 40% of its network, which I'm sure is going to be far-more painful than this ordeal seen today.
 
Chrysler to Close 25% of its Dealer Network

That would be 789 dealers across the United States, a move that is probably smart, but still full of a lot of problems, particularly with the memory associated with the smaller dealers. I had a look at the list of closings here in Michigan (only 40 are going), surprisingly NONE of the dealers are closing in Grand Rapids. We're losing two prestigious dealers in Holland, which is unfortunate, but I assume they think they're close enough to Grand Rapids (well, actually Grandville) to not make a difference.

GM is supposed to be closing over 40% of its network, which I'm sure is going to be far-more painful than this ordeal seen today.

Not to mention the two dealers in Holland, but Tamaroff Dodge in Southfield, and Fox Hills Chrysler-Jeep in Plymouth? Wow, I wonder what dealers in Indiana are closing.... Dang... Both Palmer Dodges and Gene Beltz Shadeland Dodge... surprised that Dunham's in Angola isn't on the list..... ---- Randy
 
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Where can I get the list of what stores in Texas will be closed? (or the rest of the country)
 
According to their complete list, Preston Chrysler-Jeep and Frank Kent Dodge are the only ones near you that are closing. There are a heap of ones in Houston closing up shop, which surprised me.

I'm just extremely surprised that they're closing Elhart (Holland) and M&M (Kalamazoo) up here. They've been a big, well-known dealers for decades. By my count, there are five or so Chrysler dealers in Grand Rapids. Strangely, most of them are stand-alone networks themselves that are usually within one to two miles of each other. I suppose having them on separate sides of town is a "good idea," but, I suppose that's why I'm not making the call.
 
Well, Uftring's closing 'round here, but that's no surprise to me...we have Roanoke (who sells Vipers) and Leman dealers in this region, and probably some in Bloomington that I don't know off the top of my head. Besides, Uftring has so many other dealers (Ford and GM are their main sellers, and they also have Land Rover, Jaguar, and Nissan) that the Chrysler traffic isn't really important to them.

In fact, I think Uftring has TWO major Chevrolet dealerships in the area!
 
surprisingly NONE of the dealers are closing in Grand Rapids. We're losing two prestigious dealers in Holland, which is unfortunate, but I assume they think they're close enough to Grand Rapids (well, actually Grandville) to not make a difference.

I'm pretty surprised they're closing both Verhage and Elhart. You think they'd just consolidate those. Holland isn't the smallest of towns, it would make sense to keep one there. Apparently they're keeping the one in Hudsonville? Interesting. Although I guess their lots have been pretty much the same for a very long time. But I thought that Verhage was in an excellent location right at the entrance to Holland and just a couple blocks from downtown.

The other interesting thing is that BBC Dodge isn't on the list. They cut the size of the place in half a year or two ago, before the crisis hit, and you think that the situation now would make things even worse there...

GM is supposed to be closing over 40% of its network, which I'm sure is going to be far-more painful than this ordeal seen today.

How many is that? Mom said that GM was set to close 12,000 dealers. Is this more like 1,200? How many is that? I bet they'll close that Pontiac/GMC dealer in Holland.
 
I went over the whole list. it appears that they're only closing the Obscure little dealerships and the ones floating around our Metro areas, here in Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh and Philly look like they're losing two apeice, Johnstown, Altoona, and Erie lose theirs...odd, I thought it would be the other way around, closing the dealerships OUTSIDE of Metro Areas...
 
Why would you think that? It's more prudent to get rid of redundancy rather than close the only dealership in 60 or 70 miles. You do that, you leave that market, that simple. If you have five or six dealers within 30 miles of one another, you can pick off one or two. Likely the shadier dealerships are also getting killed off.
 
I thought about it and it does seem more strategic than just closing the slowest selling dealers. Because unless the car market in urban areas is doing just fine (doubtful), it makes sense to cut dealers in big cities, where dealers are likely stealing sales from each other, and where the customer can easily go somewhere else to pick up a new Dodge. Because in most cases, you can't just drive an extra 5 miles in the country to get to your next dealer. And losing a small part of their rural market isn't going to hurt much, but if they start taking big holes out of it, then Chrysler will be in more trouble. Especially since that's where the trucks are sold.

And it looks like a lot of the dealers they are closing aren't specifically affiliated with Chrysler. Most of the places in Washington are dealers that (I assume) just carry some Chrysler products, and not designated Dodge, Chrysler or Jeep dealers. I'm seeing some Chevy dealers, Lincoln-Mercury dealers and some ___ Auto Sales Inc. places on the list.
 
Well, there is a good chance that a lot of those dealers will just lose their Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep endorsements outright. The reporting on NPR this morning was suggesting that in some places, the dealers are more likely to continue on as used car sales and service only shops. Although the smallest will likely fold, there are still plenty that may be able to attract a new corporate buyer as well. I could see VW, Honda or Toyota wanting to spread out their networks a bit, maybe nabbing some of these guys left out to dry.
 
Well, the ones closing in my area are part of an enormous chain that sells the other Big Three makes, as well as some high-end Imports. and Nissan. The guy also has two competing Chevrolet dealerships in the same market, under different names (Jim McComb Chevrolet in Peoria and Uftring Chevy Saab in Washington. Which, BTW, is probably the most effective Saab dealership in the country, because I see so many of them you'd think I was in Sweden.)
 
Well, there is a good chance that a lot of those dealers will just lose their Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep endorsements outright. The reporting on NPR this morning was suggesting that in some places, the dealers are more likely to continue on as used car sales and service only shops. Although the smallest will likely fold, there are still plenty that may be able to attract a new corporate buyer as well. I could see VW, Honda or Toyota wanting to spread out their networks a bit, maybe nabbing some of these guys left out to dry.

That's probably spot on. The used car market is pretty strong now, so it would make sense to see these dealers continuing with that. Although I could certainly see them downsizing quite a bit to go the used route.

And when it comes to other companies picking them up, that makes a lot of sense. A lot of the companies (Mostly VW) that have picked up a good portion of market share will be looking to expand when the economy turns around, so it would make sense to nab a few Chrysler dealers down the road if those dealers are still around-ish. I'd love to see a VW dealer pop up in place of the Dodge dealer that shut down here a while back.

Well, the ones closing in my area are part of an enormous chain that sells the other Big Three makes, as well as some high-end Imports. and Nissan. The guy also has two competing Chevrolet dealerships in the same market, under different names (Jim McComb Chevrolet in Peoria and Uftring Chevy Saab in Washington. Which, BTW, is probably the most effective Saab dealership in the country, because I see so many of them you'd think I was in Sweden.)

If that network is doing so well, you'd think Chrysler would be able to just downsize that dealer and keep selling cars. Interesting... And with the way Saabs are selling these days, you may have the only effective Saab dealer in the country there at the moment... Although there was a very good one here a few years ago, but that was recently bought out by Subaru.
 
Well, Chryslers are the only thing they didn't sell much of on a regular basis. They also only had Chrysler (at a little dealer tucked out of the way) and Jeep (at a Ford/Nissan "Automall") and not Volume seller Dodge, whereas the other dealers are Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealers. Particularly Roanoke, which sells everything Chrysler makes, including the Viper.
 
i figured if Fiat was smart, they'd snatch the infrastructure right out from under the former DCJers. as far as I can tell, it's Chrysler products that aren't selling.
fiat would do well to pounce on these city slots, cause I bet a lot of people are only gonna see the linup as City Cars only (i think here's still a perception that anything with less than a V8 can't get up hills).

Yss, though, has a point. intant used lots...the only problem I see is the fact that every manufacturer has leftover 08's sitting and rotting...untouched brand news they should be getting rid of...and at bargin bin prices.
 
Some of the GM dealers recieved notification of who will be closing, and so far, we have only one in the area getting the axe that we know of. Fox is losing two or three of their dealers, including one here in Grand Rapids. This is a network that is part of the Amway umbrella, which I found very odd.
 
GM's life support is failing.

CNN Money
GM moves step closer to bankruptcy

General Motors said Wednesday it has fallen far short of the bondholder support it needed for its proposed debt-for-stock offer, virtually guaranteeing that the nation's largest automaker will be forced to file for bankruptcy court protection within the next five days.

The bondholders were not satisfied with the prospect of owning only 10% of the company when the U.S. government would own nearly 70% and a union-controlled trust fund up to 20%.

The bondholders own $27 billion in corporate notes. GM (GM, Fortune 500) needed owners of 90% of those bonds to accept stock in return for the debt in order to reduce its interest expenses to a more manageable level.

But GM's announcement said that bondholders who took the company's offer were "substantially less than the amount required."

The company owes the bondholders $1 billion in interest payments on June 1 - money it says it does not have.

The company also faces a June 1 deadline to win concessions from its union, creditors and other parties or be forced into bankruptcy by the U.S. Treasury Department, which is funding GM's operations through direct federal help.

"The GM board of directors will be meeting to discuss GM's next steps in light of the expiration of the exchange offers," said the company's statement.

The ad hoc committee of major bondholders had no immediate comment on the vote. The group, which includes major pension funds and mutual funds that own large blocks of the bonds, had proposed the bondholders as a group receive 58% of the stock in GM, rather than the 10% being offered.

The major bondholders have also said they want to continue negotiating with Treasury's auto industry task force overseeing the federal bailout of GM and Chrysler LLC.

A source with knowledge of GM's restructuring discussions said Treasury is willing to hold negotiations up until June 1.

"We've said consistently that we were happy to talk to any stakeholder any time about anything," the source said. "Recently there have been far more constructive and orderly conversations."

But the source added that Treasury believed the offer made to GM creditors, which would give them 225 shares of GM stock for every $1,000 they are owed, is fair and equitable, and that it is not likely to be substantially increased. The 225 shares would be worth $324 based on Tuesday's closing price, although the value of these shares could be significantly less after a reorganization.

However, if GM does go into bankruptcy, the source said that Treasury believes the bondholders would likely get even less than what was offered.

"In any kind of liquidation scenario, they would get nothing or something unbelievably small," said the source.

It is estimated that about 20% of the $27 billion in debt, between $5 billion and $6 billion, is held by individual investors who bought the bonds for the steady revenue stream they provided. Most of the bonds pay better than 7% interest, and those that were purchased at a discount since GM debt was downgraded to junk bond status in 2005 pay an even better return.

GM stock does not pay any dividend and will not do so for the foreseeable future. Stock is also a riskier investment than bonds because stockholders are certain to be wiped out if there is a bankruptcy filing, while bondholders can hope that they will recover some of their investment in court.

But rating agency Standard & Poor's estimates that the bondholders, whose debt is not secured by specific company assets, will get between 0% and 10% of their investment back in bankruptcy court.

The stock being offered bondholders would be equal to only about 10% of the company. GM's stated plan is for the government and a union-controlled trust fund to own 89% of the company between them.

The United Auto Workers union disclosed to its local presidents Tuesday that it has agreed to accept 17.5% of GM's common stock to cover future retiree health care costs, as well as warrants for an additional 2.5% that give the trust fund the right to buy shares at a very low price.

Previously, many had expected the union to control nearly 40% of GM shares, rather than 20%. But the source familiar with the restructuring discussions said the lower stake for the UAW does not open the way for bondholders to get a larger stake in GM.

The source said the Canadian government will own a small percentage of GM, as it does of Chrysler. The source added that a Treasury stake well above 50% is fair given that the government has provided GM with $19.4 billion in help so far and will likely give the company tens of billions of dollars more to fund its operations during bankruptcy.

Oh boy, I can't wait to see what happens to southeast Michigan now.
 
GM's life support is failing.



Oh boy, I can't wait to see what happens to southeast Michigan now.

It was bound to happen. ...Better to get it over as quickly as possible.
 
Ya true enough, I just don't know if this area can take another blow like this. According to the newspapers we'll be looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30% unemployment in Michigan if GM files for bankruptcy. I know bankruptcy does not mean the liquidation of GM, but it does mean a lot of people will be looking for work. I'm thrilled to death, I have a college degree and can't find a decent job...lame.
 
Well, its not much better over here. We had quite a few GM and Ford plants not that long ago, and I'm sure that this process is only going to expedite the closure of the GM plant that has been on the verge for some time. What's more worrisome, at least for us on the West side of the state is that we have to deal with the supplier losses, not the direct loss of the manufacturer.

If this means that GM is going to come out lean, but still survive, then they have to do it. A big part of my family still counts on them for their pensions and healthcare, so they're a bit worried about that... Otherwise, I just want to be able to get my Chevrolet products without much of a problem.

Well, that is, after they figure out how to top Ford's eleventy thousand percent better (current) products.
 
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