The Crew: Wild Run Edition

  • Thread starter Thread starter DDastardly00
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MeanElf
Those look like reasons to me, and ones that are pretty self-explainatory.
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None of which are valid.

1: Just because a company has something in stock does not mean that they are obliged to give it too you for free. It doesn't matter whether that something is hardware or software.

2: Companies are entitled to charge whatever they like for their work. It sucks when they overprice it, but companies that price themselves out of the market regularly go bust. It's self-regulating, and there's nothing inherently bad about companies pricing their stuff high. It's exactly what they're supposed to do for the good of themselves and their employees, extract the most value from their work.

3: See above. Companies cannot be greedy in a negative sense, because their entire reason for existing is to extract as much value as possible from the goods and services that they sell. They're supposed to be greedy, and any company that isn't is doing it wrong.

However, you keep picking up and returning to the "but, it's evil" comment, which Legend never actually said, not unless you twist the first bolded part quoted below.
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Not really, it's the only part of his "claims" that cannot be directly refuted. However, it does require some explanation of exactly why having DLC of this nature is evil, an explanation that has not been provided.

Now there is another reason, both lucid and valid and so by your own reasoning, there it should have stopped.
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Why? Because I'm not allowed to question that either? Is this some sort of fairy land where as soon as someone states their opinion the discussion is over?

That was funny but unfortunately just a little naive.
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I'm sure you'll have no problems explaining why that's not the case then.

Sorry, once more a bit too sweeping to be taken seriously. There are countless examples of people 'trying to do their best' no matter what their financial needs, and considering that certain levels of profit do not come without cost-cutting and 'special deals' over the heads of the workforce and/or suppliers' workforce(s) then that would seem to equate to the 'some degree of evil is required' comment.
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Feel free to prove that profits attainable by "evil" business practises are not achievable by simply running your company better. Short term it may be true, you can always make a ton of money really fast by shipping an awful product and cashing in on your good name. Long term, I don't see it. Go ahead and show me an example where the best long term strategy was "evil".

I pulled those last two quotes of yours out because to me it implies that you have a particular perspective concerning the matter and Legend has another, both of you have explained them sufficiently for it to be clear that those viewpoints are different. So, outside of a debating society, is there any point in continuing further with that discussion, certainly once both parties have stated their case and defended it to the first level of reasoning?

I think not; Legend, by the looks of it also thought not.
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That's lovely. So for you, establishing differing viewpoints is enough to end the discussion.

I notice that with reference to this particular discussion, that hasn't stopped you though. Very early on it has been apparently that you think that discourse should cease, and I don't. That's a differing viewpoint, but you're quite happy to keep going? Pot, meet your African American cousin, Kettle.

Let's be honest, you pick and choose what you want to discuss. You (and Legend) don't want to discuss DLC and the nature of companies. You are quite happy to spend lots of time discussing what people should be discussing though, which is hilarious.

I want to talk about DLC and companies. If you don't want to, stop replying.
 
Imari
None of which are valid.
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No?
...Feel free to prove that profits attainable by "evil" business practises are not achievable by simply running your company better...
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Be content with earning enough, not more, and then more still...
...Short term it may be true, you can always make a ton of money really fast by shipping an awful product and cashing in on your good name. Long term, I don't see it. Go ahead and show me an example where the best long term strategy was "evil".
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I happen to work for a supermarket, a big one. The in-house brands started off as cheap, reliable items and were a good idea. That was thirty years ago. Now the products are of a far inferior quality to back then and the buyer is constantly pressuring it's suppliers for cheaper production runs, just so that they can maintain their profit margins. Certain basic foodstuffs they will switch provider at a moment's notice, thus leaving those working for that provider with an uncertain future, mor often than not resulting in a majority workforce of temp staff.

If you want an example from history instead, try the French coalmining industry. Land owned by the lords was mined by the workers, who then sold the coal to those who owned the land. Year after year had to bid against other familys for the right to work on that land, and that bidding resulted in undercutting each other with regards to how much they'd settle for in return. In the end it was a contributing factor to the first French Revoloution.

...That's lovely. So for you, establishing differing viewpoints is enough to end the discussion.
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When it was requested that the discussion stop, yes.

...I notice that with reference to this particular discussion, that hasn't stopped you though. Very early on it has been apparently that you think that discourse should cease, and I don't. That's a differing viewpoint, but you're quite happy to keep going?
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When the one viewpoint calls the veracity of the other into question, I think that's okay.

Let's be honest, you pick and choose what you want to discuss. You (and Legend) don't want to discuss DLC and the nature of companies. You are quite happy to spend lots of time discussing what people should be discussing though, which is hilarious.[/quote]
As do you dear chap.

...I want to talk about DLC and companies. If you don't want to, stop replying.
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Okay.
 
MeanElf
No?

Be content with earning enough, not more, and then more still...

I happen to work for a supermarket, a big one. The in-house brands started off as cheap, reliable items and were a good idea. That was thirty years ago. Now the products are of a far inferior quality to back then and the buyer is constantly pressuring it's suppliers for cheaper production runs, just so that they can maintain their profit margins. Certain basic foodstuffs they will switch provider at a moment's notice, thus leaving those working for that provider with an uncertain future, mor often than not resulting in a majority workforce of temp staff.
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What's evil about this? Any consumer has the right to decide where they buy their goods from. If the supermarket is a consumer, they have that right too. That's not evil, that's sensible.

Some people choose to buy goods that are more expensive and/or worse simply because they want to support a certain vendor. Some people choose to buy goods that represent the best value for money. Go ahead and explain how either of those choices are worse than the other.

That some vendors try to engage in a race to the bottom with regards to pricing is their own problem. The last company I worked for had this very issue. I pointed out that as a smaller company they were never going to be able to compete effectively on price with larger companies that are more automated, and so they needed to compete on quality and service. They didn't and continued to slash into their margins in an effort to get sales, and as a result they're probably going to be going bust in the next six months, given that they've laid off enough staff that I seriously doubt that they can dig themselves out of debt any more.

If you want an example from history instead, try the French coalmining industry. Land owned by the lords was mined by the workers, who then sold the coal to those who owned the land. Year after year had to bid against other familys for the right to work on that land, and that bidding resulted in undercutting each other with regards to how much they'd settle for in return. In the end it was a contributing factor to the first French Revoloution.
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And so said business practices turned out not to be sustainable in the long term, ultimately losing the lords money over a strategy that would have been less profitable in the short term and less evil.

Are you trying to prove my point for me or what?

When it was requested that the discussion stop, yes.
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And Legend was perfectly able to step out of the conversation, as he did. He's not able to tell me to shut up, and neither are you. The mods can, if they think that it's not relevant. But I happen to think that the discussion of DLC and business practises is an important one that is particularly relevant to The Crew, given that they seem to have expressly divided their assets into base game and DLC in a fashion that isn't related to what was ready at the time, but is presumably based on what they think will make them the most money.

When the one viewpoint calls the veracity of the other into question, I think that's okay.
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So why did you have a problem with me questioning the accuracy of Legend's statements again? He made his points and said that was the end. I came back with questions, and you jumped on me for it.

You strike me as trying to have it both ways.

As do you dear chap.
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The difference is I'm not trying to stifle discussion of some topics. People can talk about whatever they like, and if I don't want to take part I won't.
 
Same argument over and over and over and over, in various threads across the forums... for some reason gamers feel that certain things should be included/free or else the company selling the product is money-hungry/evil/taking advantage/etc.. Most if not all of us live in a free and capitalistic society, buy (or sell) what you think is worth the price of admission, don't if you do not - simple! Sorry, I will never see the point of those that somehow determine what should be free and what shouldn't, basically making a business decision for a business you are not a stake-holder in. No two situations can be considered equal - just because something is done in one case doesn't' mean it can be or should be in another.
I'm older than dirt, maybe I look at things different that the typical gamer boy.
 
sems4arsenal
By the time I finish downloading this, it will probably be over :lol:
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If you have already downloaded the Beta then you shouldn't have to download it again.

Boxout
https://www.facebook.com/thecrewgam...41832.134970233368687/319042664961442/?type=1

Here something to make you guys happy,
Really weird of them dropping a open beta, for consoles only and ending 4 days before the actual game release. Hopefully this is just not an excuse for another delay.
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All of the Betas have been closed so far, with this Open Beta, everyone can try the game and decide if they want to buy it. Pretty cool of them to do.

They will get to perform a massive server stress test leading up to the game launch as well. I am glad they are being thorough since this is an always online game. I have never seen a successful launch with any of these MMO type games (TDU, TDU2, Sims, Driveclub etc), I'll be amazed if they can pull it off on Day one.
 
From Ubisoft's page:

Open Beta on Consoles
11/20/2014 12:00
Drivers, we’d like to interrupt your leisurely drive with this BREAKING NEWS!
We’re having an Open Beta on consoles (PS4 & Xbox one) from November 25th until the 28th! We’ll be flashing the go sign at 9AM CET on the 25th, and we’ll be raising the checkered flag at 9AM CET on the 28th.
Players with Xbox Live Silver or PlayStation Network accounts will be able to play the game, enjoy Free Ride across the US map, cross other players’ paths, and participate in all the asynchronous activities that THE CREW offers. However, in order to communicate with others and to dive further into the multiplayer experience with Co-op and PvP, either an Xbox Live Gold or PS+ membership will be
 
DDastardly00
From Ubisoft's page:

Open Beta on Consoles
11/20/2014 12:00
Drivers, we’d like to interrupt your leisurely drive with this BREAKING NEWS!
We’re having an Open Beta on consoles (PS4 & Xbox one) from November 25th until the 28th! We’ll be flashing the go sign at 9AM CET on the 25th, and we’ll be raising the checkered flag at 9AM CET on the 28th.
Players with Xbox Live Silver or PlayStation Network accounts will be able to play the game, enjoy Free Ride across the US map, cross other players’ paths, and participate in all the asynchronous activities that THE CREW offers. However, in order to communicate with others and to dive further into the multiplayer experience with Co-op and PvP, either an Xbox Live Gold or PS+ membership will be
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How big is it?
 
I'm looking forward to help stress test the servers in the next Open Console Beta. I have next Wednesday through Sunday off, so I will have plenty of time to roam around the map and visit the areas I haven't been to yet. This beta is just in time for the Holiday weekend. I haven't played any games all week, I've been in this weird funk where all I want to play is The Crew and I just don't care about anything else :lol:

I've been getting plenty of other things done in the meantime so it's a good thing.
 
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In my opinion, it's perfectly possible to have good base handling and have still have upgrades to make it better (see NFS MW 2012). The way the graph is shown makes it look like the base physics code is modified as you level up, putting beginners at a handicap. It's probably the RPG side of the game that I'm not used to, but I like having consistent physics from the moment I pick up the controller. Also, what happens if you're already level 50 and you switch to a new car? You'd have to do the grind all over again just to get it handle proper :crazy: No doubt this is also designed to encourage microtransactions (for those who don't play 24/7 anyway).
 
LeGeNd-1
In my opinion, it's perfectly possible to have good base handling and have still have upgrades to make it better (see NFS MW 2012). The way the graph is shown makes it look like the base physics code is modified as you level up, putting beginners at a handicap. It's probably the RPG side of the game that I'm not used to, but I like having consistent physics from the moment I pick up the controller. Also, what happens if you're already level 50 and you switch to a new car? You'd have to do the grind all over again just to get it handle proper :crazy: No doubt this is also designed to encourage microtransactions (for those who don't play 24/7 anyway).
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When you level up, it automatically levels your garage cars up as well, all of them.
 
DDastardly00
When you level up, it automatically levels your garage cars up as well, all of them.
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Ok that makes it a bit better. So player level and car level are both global levels? What about individual parts then? Surely you still have to unlock them individually for each cars?
 
PsuPepperoni
Every time you use that game as an example of a good handling, I die a little inside.
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Really? I thought it's pretty solid as far as arcade handling go. Not quite as good as Burnout Paradise, but compared to many other arcade racers on the PS3 it stood out rather well. Driver SF which I had recently tried is also pretty good. Bad handling for me would be NFS Undercover, NFS HP 2010, Blur, Split Second and FUEL.

Just out of interest, which arcade games do you consider has good handling?
 
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LeGeNd-1
Really? I thought it's pretty solid as far as arcade handling go. Not quite as good as Burnout Paradise, but compared to many other arcade racers on the PS3 it stood out rather well. Driver SF which I had recently tried is also pretty good. Bad handling for me would be NFS Undercover, NFS HP 2010, Blur, Split Second and FUEL.

Just out of interest, which arcade games do you consider has good handling?
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I didn't play HP 2010 very much, but I don't remember the steering being as slow as MW. Maybe the physics are better in MW, but how can you control a car that steers 1/10 as fast as the inputs you put in?

It takes something like 0.2 seconds to move the analog stick from left to right, and about 2 seconds for the game to steer from lock to lock. So if you steer back and forth too quickly, the car doesn't even change direction. If you wait long enough for the game to react, at 200 mph, the car goes the length of a football field before doing what you want. That makes it pretty difficult to weave through traffic.

I never had any problems with NFSU2 or NFSMW(the real one). I probably had thousands of hours in those games before Criterion turned the series into Burnout-with-licensed-cars.
 
PsuPepperoni
I didn't play HP 2010 very much, but I don't remember the steering being as slow as MW. Maybe the physics are better in MW, but how can you control a car that steers 1/10 as fast as the inputs you put in?

It takes something like 0.2 seconds to move the analog stick from left to right, and about 2 seconds for the game to steer from lock to lock. So if you steer back and forth too quickly, the car doesn't even change direction. If you wait long enough for the game to react, at 200 mph, the car goes the length of a football field before doing what you want. That makes it pretty difficult to weave through traffic.

I never had any problems with NFSU2 or NFSMW(the real one). I probably had thousands of hours in those games before Criterion turned the series into Burnout-with-licensed-cars.
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NFS HP had very stiff physics. It takes ages to initiate a drift unless you tap the handbrake. Even then you need to get the timing correct to avoid scrubbing off too much speed. IIRC the steering response is even slower than MW.

I never had any problem with steering response in MW 2012. I remember the rear end of the cars have a tendency to grip at high speeds, which I presume is an artificial aid to make it easier to drive (most of the cars are rear heavy MR supercars after all). But the front end is fine. Obviously if you're doing 200mph dodging traffic is gonna be a problem, but if you feather the throttle you can weave no problem 👍 That's what I like about the physics; despite being arcade you need a lot of finesse to extract the most out of it. Also keep in mind that because it's set in a city, traffic density is gonna be higher than NFS HP, so you'll naturally also crash more often.

I played NFSU 1 and 2 a lot back in the day as well. I agree they have good physics as well. But NFS MW has small subtleties and nuances between the cars that I like. You can tell the difference between a 911 and Countach right away. Whereas the older NFS all cars feel the same just with modified stats.

I never played the original MW, and I know Criterion was making the new MW, so I never expected anything else other than Burnout with real cars. In that respect, that game is pretty much perfect for me (second only to Burnout Paradise as the top arcade racer of all time).
 
LeGeNd-1
I never had any problem with steering response in MW 2012. I remember the rear end of the cars have a tendency to grip at high speeds, which I presume is an artificial aid to make it easier to drive (most of the cars are rear heavy MR supercars after all). But the front end is fine. Obviously if you're doing 200mph dodging traffic is gonna be a problem, but if you feather the throttle you can weave no problem 👍 That's what I like about the physics; despite being arcade you need a lot of finesse to extract the most out of it. Also keep in mind that because it's set in a city, traffic density is gonna be higher than NFS HP, so you'll naturally also crash more often.
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I just don't understand why simulator physics seem natural and easy for me to use, but I need "finesse" to play an arcade racer.
Anyway I made a video to show you what I'm talking about.
 
I play NFS since 1998 and i really liked MW 2012. That MP was the best ever in NFS for me. No problems with handling.

Was better than The Crew with pad ^^

Hope the handling is better in the open beta than it was in the first on consoles which i tested last.
 
PsuPepperoni
I just don't understand why simulator physics seem natural and easy for me to use, but I need "finesse" to play an arcade racer.
Anyway I made a video to show you what I'm talking about.
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Probably because you expected to use finesse for a sim, hence it feels natural. But not for an arcade racer, hence you feel it is harder to use. But fair point really 👍 That video also proves the steering lag at standstill. It doesn't seem as bad when it's moving though.

Here's my take on MW's physics:

In the old MW, the car is very stiff (think of the suspension as having very little travel). Hence they can make the steering super sensitive and the car will respond to the input immediately without losing control. Just imaging driving an F1 car in a sim. You can flick the joystick left-right quite roughly, but the stiff suspension and high grip keeps the car from being unsettled.

In the new MW, Criterion wants to make it a tad more realistic. From the video you posted you can see the car rolls from side to side. The cars actually have suspension travel now. In a sim if you try to drive a softly sprung road car and rock the joystick quickly from side to side, it will unsettle the car and you'll lose control. Hence the steering assist in MW which "dampens" sudden steering movements. Burnout Paradise was closer to the old NFS physics with minimal suspension travel, hence they could afford to make the steering more responsive. IMO Criterion balanced arcade and simcade quite nicely with MW.

I can see where you're coming from that we should not need as much finesse in an arcade game. Personally I like having a deep and nuanced physics engine that's easy to pick up and hard to master. MW takes some getting used to, but once you do you'll be surprised how much depth it has. As opposed to The Crew (from what I've seen) where the center axis physics is not intuitive, but once you figured it out it feels cheap (similar to Codemasters GRiD/DiRT series).

In any case, I can certainly respect your opinion 👍 Everyone has a different driving style after all. And it's probably too late to change The Crew's handling anyway, so let's just take what we are offered and suck it up :lol:
 
PsuPepperoni
But can you, personally, go for a cruise in MW and stay in a lane?
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Although I do cruise, I never consciously try to keep in a lane, so I'm not really qualified to answer that :lol: Personally I don't think MW is meant to be a cruising game though. It's leaning more towards an action-driving game like Burnout, hence the physics reflect that. Something like TDU1 would be better suited to cruising (and the physics reflect that as well).

Sorry if that doesn't really answer your question. 90% of my time is going flatout rather than cruising :p
 

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