The Damage Thread - Best Buy Demo, Now Thats More Like It!

[aspect8]

So far all we have is that quote, and the playable damage demo. Given the ambiguity of the description of damage (no-one seems to understand what it means), all we know is that there are 2 different damage models. 170 cars have one damage model, the rest have another. Now we've seen the demo with damage, and you had a Subaru WRC car taking damage, and all other cars receiving no damage. In my mind there's three likely scenarios that explain what we saw.

1. Those are the 2 damage levels we're talking about, in which case what Sim says is correct. 170/1000 cars have visual damage, the rest don't.
2. Only the player car is damageable, at least in single player. I really, REALLY hope this isn't the case, because it's incredibly dumb.
3. The damage is incomplete, and PD is still working on it. This would surprise me given that signs are pointing to release very soon. If they only had one car with working damage out of 1000, well... they have a lot of work to do.

Bring on TGS.

 

[hardvibes]

....you conclude that he is saying that all cars will have some kind of damage but that we just don't know if it will be mechanical or aesthetic? O_o

Affirmative.

p.s. it's my opinion.

 

[Simple SIM]

So far all we have is that quote, and the playable damage demo. Given the ambiguity of the description of damage (no-one seems to understand what it means), all we know is that there are 2 different damage models. 170 cars have one damage model, the rest have another. Now we've seen the demo with damage, and you had a Subaru WRC car taking damage, and all other cars receiving no damage. In my mind there's three likely scenarios that explain what we saw.

1. Those are the 2 damage levels we're talking about, in which case what Sim says is correct. 170/1000 cars have visual damage, the rest don't.
2. Only the player car is damageable, at least in single player. I really, REALLY hope this isn't the case, because it's incredibly dumb.
3. The damage is incomplete, and PD is still working on it. This would surprise me given that signs are pointing to release very soon. If they only had one car with working damage out of 1000, well... they have a lot of work to do.

Bring on TGS.

I agree with everything you say, but where are you getting this info about 2 different damage models?

affirmative.

P.s. It's my opinion.

ok

 

[aspect8]

I'm talking about the feature set from Gamescom Germany:
"170 Premium new models (full interior modeling, the interior corresponds to vehicle damage)
830 kinds of standard model (some are from Gran Turismo 4 that have been carried over to GT5)"

I didn't mean to confuse people by saying 2 levels of damage, I just meant to illustrate that the feature list very clearly suggests there will be a difference between the premium and standard models. The fact that they have specifically mentioned damage in their description of the premium models suggests that will be one of the differences.

We've seen at the demo 2 different sets of cars. The Subaru WRC, with visual and mechanical damage, and the other cars, with nothing. We've been told there are 2 different sets of cars. Kaz has said only certain cars will have damage. Simplest conclusion from what we've seen? The WRC was a premium car, with visual and mechanical damage. The rest were standard models, exhibiting no damage.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's my read from the info we've been given.

 

[Simple SIM]

I'm talking about the feature set from Gamescom Germany:
"170 Premium new models (full interior modeling, the interior corresponds to vehicle damage)
830 kinds of standard model (some are from Gran Turismo 4 that have been carried over to GT5)"

I didn't mean to confuse people by saying 2 levels of damage, I just meant to illustrate that the feature list very clearly suggests there will be a difference between the premium and standard models. The fact that they have specifically mentioned damage in their description of the premium models suggests that will be one of the differences.

We've seen at the demo 2 different sets of cars. The Subaru WRC, with visual and mechanical damage, and the other cars, with nothing. We've been told there are 2 different sets of cars. Kaz has said only certain cars will have damage. Simplest conclusion from what we've seen? The WRC was a premium car, with visual and mechanical damage. The rest were standard models, exhibiting no damage.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but that's my read from the info we've been given.

Can't argue with the facts.

People who are expecting all cars to have damage modeling are gonna be disappointed come TGS.

 

[Northstar]

Can't argue with the facts.

People who are expecting all cars to have damage modeling are gonna be disappointed come TGS.

I am expecting the best and prepared for the worst.

Currently we have no real idea what will/will not have damage. We have our speculations based on what info we have but so far nothing official.

Also, you can't take much from the list as things never come out right when translated.

 

[IsmokeGT]

People who are expecting all cars to have damage modeling are gonna be disappointed come TGS.

And what will we call you if every car does have damage?

You speculate as much as he next guy.

 

[aspect8]

And what will we call you if every car does have damage?

You speculate as much as he next guy.

You can call me pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately my years of being a gamer and following upcoming game announcements has left me a withered, cynical husk of a man.

 

[Simple SIM]

And what will we call you if every car does have damage?

You speculate as much as he next guy.

Every piece of info we have which includes a leak directly from gran turismo .com and KY himself saing that not all the cars will have damage.

And I'm speculating???

I seriously don't understand where some of you people are coming from.

And what will we call you when all cars don't have damage modeling? This is ridiculous.

 

[Northstar]

Well considering that we don't know what cars will/will not have damage is the main reason for debate. I'm guessing the older cars will be without damage and the newer models will have it.

 

[Devedander]

Well considering that we don't know what cars will/will not have damage is the main reason for debate. I'm guessing the older cars will be without damage and the newer models will have it.

I got confused over the main reason for the debate... was it:

Forza makes Ferraris into tanks?
Other games don't make Ferraris into tanks?
Will GT5 still be Godlike if even if it had no damage?
Is it ok to have limited damage as long as it's the car companies fault?
Will all cars in GT5 have damage?
If not which groups of cars will have what kind of damage?

I don't know... all I know is:

KY is horrible at saying anything clearly

From what he says, it seems less likely that all cars will have damage than any other conclusion.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

KY is horrible at saying anything clearly

More like Google is horrible at translating Japanese>(insert foreign language)>English.

A lot of these details get lost in translation, which makes it difficult to know what the deal is until an official source discloses info.

 

[RACECAR]

More like Google is horrible at translating Japanese>(insert foreign language)>English.

For that reason alone, its best to never use Babelfish for Japanese-to-English translaton. It'll leave you asking more questions then answering them.

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm guessing the older cars will be without damage and the newer models will have it.

I'm thinking that race cars will have damage, street cars and possibly tuners will have none.

 

[Northstar]

Yes, I've heard that one millions of times. I'm just trying to offer other theories to show that there are other possibilities.

 

[Mr Fox]

Yes, I've heard that one millions of times. I'm just trying to offer other theories to show that there are other possibilities.

In that case, perhaps they (PD) select which cars get damage with a giant wheel of fortune.....just a theory.

As it stands the most probable senario imo based on avalible information is that race cars feature damage, street cars do not.

[EDIT] The only other reasonable alternative is that, Premium cars (ie: those made exclusively for GT5) feature damage, whilst cars ported from GT4/GT5p do not feature damage.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I agree with Mr. Fox in his scenario.

 

[serversurfer]

"170 Premium new models (full interior modeling, the interior corresponds to vehicle damage)
830 kinds of standard model"
To me, that indicates that 170 of the cars will have interior views, and the attention to detail on said interior view is high enough that it corresponds to whatever damage the car has taken. It says nothing about the presence (or lack) of damage on the other 830. The only thing it says about the latter group is that they don't have cockpit views. Incidentally, what is the source for this quote?

KY said that it's still being determined which cars will have "damage modeling." This could mean that only certain cars can be damaged, or it could mean that only certain cars will display damage, while all cars suffer the consequences of it. It takes a lot of work to model crumpled fenders on 1000 cars, but once you've calculated the effects of a loose suspension mounting, it's not too hard to extrapolate that to other cars. Yes, you'd probably want to model it differently for different suspension types, but even still, you're only talking about maybe a dozen variations instead of 1000, and more to the point, it's just a programatic change as opposed to months of work by a dozen artists for every single vehicle.

With regard to the whole thing about not being able to get permission to destroy cars while other devs have no such issues, that's entirely possible. Car manufacturers know that GT is the epitome of console racers, and everything else is "just some stupid game." Hell, FM2 was handily outsold by the beta, scratch that, the alpha, of GT5. How many times have we seen a manufacturer decide to give the world its first look at their new hotness by modeling it in a GT game? How many times have we seen that in NFS or FM? I have no trouble believing that Ferrari (or whoever) might not want visible damage in the software that they'll actually be using to showcase their offerings, while not caring as much if it's in "some game."

 

[hardvibes]

To me, that indicates that 170 of the cars will have interior views

Hold on a second...in the prologue spec III all the cars, except the R35 proto, have interior view (~70). I hope you're not saying that we are going to see only 100 new cockpits o_0

 

[serversurfer]

Hold on a second...in the prologue spec III all the cars, except the R35 proto, have interior view (~70). I hope you're not saying that we are going to see only 100 new cockpits o_0

That's my interpretation of that quote, but as I said, I don't even know where it came from.

My main point was, they seem to be saying, "Even the cockpits get damaged," not, "Only 130 cars are subject to damage."

 

[Northstar]

I was curious and did some rough math and counted the race cars in GT4, I wound up in the 60's. I doubt they would add 100 race cars.

Edit: It is actually 113, still 57 seems like a lot of race cars to add.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Every piece of info we have which includes a leak directly from gran turismo .com and KY himself saing that not all the cars will have damage.

And I'm speculating???

I seriously don't understand where some of you people are coming from

Are you speculating?! YES!!!!!!!

I dont understand where you come from, speculator. No pieces of info you, or anyone else, has received was in the form of the FINAL game. Until then, you are speculating.

 

[hardvibes]

Simple SIM, IsmokeGT is right. You definitely are speculating since in your messages you never say it is your opinion, no you are pretty damn sure that what you say is the Truth, the Word of God...you know? Where's your humility?

As I already said we still have so little information about GT5, you can't pretend to know what's in the game only with a little translated quotation from Kazunori (not even a video interview) and a list of features in japanese , published and already removed, that we, mortals, can't decode.

 

[Devedander]

Are you speculating?! YES!!!!!!!

I dont understand where you come from, speculator. No pieces of info you, or anyone else, has received was in the form of the FINAL game. Until then, you are speculating.

Gran Turismo 5 (177 Viewing)
News, rumor, and speculation about Gran Turismo 5.

I still say a deman to wait until the final game arrives before making educated guesses is just silly... unless you are totally new tot he gaming world, you can draw from your past experience on how things have played out to make a reasonable statement about what's likely or at least possible.

Right now everyone is guessing, but educating guessing (ie basing your guesses on what info we have) is really the most you can ask for isn't it?

Simple SIM, IsmokeGT is right. You definitely are speculating since in your messages you never say it is your opinion, no you are pretty damn sure that what you say is the Truth, the Word of God...you know? Where's your humility?

As I already said we still have so little information about GT5, you can't pretend to know what's in the game only with a little translated quotation from Kazunori (not even a video interview) and a list of features in japanese , published and already removed, that we, mortals, can't decode.

It's weird how being your opinion is such a double edged sword... apparently sometimes it means you can say anything, and sometimes it means what you say is worthless...

 

[Tenacious D]

You do have to use a little logic in discussing this subject too, not saying that anyone has been goofy necessarily, just maybe not as well thought out as could be.

Okay, so we're getting damage in at least certain cars. This has to be comprehensive within certain ranges of the car list, and it has to make sense and be acceptable to a big number of the damage fiends. So, let's say hypothetically that we have all race cars set up for damage. This is almost a no-brainer because the cost for covering just the race car list is relatively small compared to the street cars. As Scaff and others have pointed out, this is the realm of demons and dragons, and long fought negotiations with many car companies. Okay, so suppose Kazunori goes after tuners, and Amuse is fine with total damage, and so is Ford, but Opera is only willing to go to Forza's 30% give or take, and Nismo will only discuss Ferrari Challenge's minimalist 20% or less. And worse, suppose MOPAR doesn't want any damage? Do you think Kazunori say, "Okay, we'll code damage to each tuner's specs and leave it at that"? Would anyone be happy with one make tuner races, due to each level of damage in the lists?

No, Kaz would be forced to scrap either damage or MOPAR licensing, and I know there are a few MOPAR fans here who are looking forward to some Viper and Challenger action. as well as NASCAR.

Take this premise to the dozens of street car makers, and you can see why leaving damage off of sports cars entirely is perhaps the only way to go. Meanwhile, all race cars are likely to get damage, while tuners are up in the air. Maybe the only tuners which can be damaged are the GT Concept tuners, but who knows.

We should have a pretty good idea in a little over a week though.

 

[Northstar]

You use logic, but it is flawed. It is flawed because you assume that manufacturer's dictate how damage is in games. Sure we have theories about Ferrari and Forza however I have yet to see one solid piece of evidence that actually says "Ferrari will only let us use the cars with less damage".

Hopefully we will find out in a couple weeks.

 

[aspect8]

Here's some.

Last question, right down the bottom. You could argue he's lying through his teeth, but I see no reason why he (or Kaz, who has said similar things) would do that.

Edit: Actually it's the second last question on that page. Sorry, my bad.

 

[angelacaine]

One wonders where the power in the relationship lies between PD and manfacturers also. Between say Ferrari and PD it's almost certainly on Ferarri's side, PD needs Ferarri to sell games, GT probably does little to increase Ferarri's sales figures or overall popularity.

Between PD and more commercially oriented manufacturers though. If you were Mitsubishi, I think you'd probably give in to a lot of what PD wants to do rather than risk them not including you in the game.

 

[Tenacious D]

You use logic, but it is flawed. It is flawed because you assume that manufacturer's dictate how damage is in games.

Not really. Along with the Dan Greenawalt interview, we have a few members such as Scaff here who works or did work in the auto industry, and was in connection with negotiating car licensing for racing games. I base my posts on their first hand dealings with this very topic.

 

[Devedander]

Here's some.

Last question, right down the bottom. You could argue he's lying through his teeth, but I see no reason why he (or Kaz, who has said similar things) would do that.

Edit: Actually it's the second last question on that page. Sorry, my bad.

I think we have generally agreed that the passenger safety cage halo is excuseable and there is an acceptable limit to the carnage shown... it must remain in decent taste.

But beyond that, the world of how much damage and if certain manufacturers would simply refuse damage is in question.