The Damage Thread - Best Buy Demo, Now Thats More Like It!

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serversurfer
Well, for what it's worth, I'm reading that other thread and it looks like the translation produced was kind of a group effort, by several Japanese-speaking GTPers and their Japanese speaking friends.
Click to expand...

So I focused my efforts in the sentence inside the parenthesis of the 170 premium cars line (内装 ダメージに対応) and that's the meanings I got:

内装: interior design
ダメージ: katakana for damage
に: a nasty particle that is way too complicated to explain and I don't fully understand
対応: correspondence

Just putting the meanings together we have "interior design damage correspondence" (read the edit for clarification) and amazingly it makes sense even though it's right out of the dictionary (though I did chose the right meanings :))

So I'll leave it at that because the translation at the GTPlanet page appears to be correct even though it add a few words probably just to make it more readable. Anyway the mistake in the courses line was apparently just a mistake by Black Chamber that was latter corrected as you said.

However you can see how the word "full" in their translation leads people to think that the standard models interiors are not fully modeled. Well that's why when I translate things (I used to translate from english to portuguese) I try to keep it as literal as possible. When people are going to dissect every word, adding an innocent little word can lead to misinterpretations.

EDIT: Well I was setting the same kind of trap I accused them of setting. See how there is a pause (look at the picture) between 内装 and ダメージ. Basically it looks like they are saying two separate things. "Interior design" period or comma or topic and another topic "damage correspondence" so don't put them together or you'll understand it wrong.

So it's not looking good. They clearly state that the premium models have interior modeling and damage correspondence. Does it means the standard models don't? Not exactly but it's the logical interpretation. Why would they be telling us the premium models have those if the standard ones have them too?
 
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serversurfer
What other information? The only information we have is the feature list and your and SIM's constant chanting of "There will only be damage in the 170 premium cars." That's not "information." It would be more accurate to call it "misinformation," because you pulled it directly out of your collective ass. There is absolutely nothing to back it up, and no, repeatedly saying, "Well, if the information we have is wrong…" doesn't count as refuting evidence. :rolleyes:

Show me something that actually says that there will only be 170 cars that can be damaged. Until then, kindly shut your pie hole, because as far as I can tell, you totally made that up. You have done absolutely nothing to back up your assertions other than try to twist the information we do have to suit your purposes.

You're doing nothing but spreading FUD.
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You are gonna have so much crow to eat come TGS :lol:
 
Well, Google translates "に" as "to" and Babylon translates it as "at, in, on; to, into; upon; by." Would it be safe/reasonable to assume this is where they came up with "interior corresponds to damage"?

Edit: Much like our earlier oddly-stuck-in-the-middle character indicated "this goes with what we were talking about before." In this case, damage correspondence goes "upon" or "to" the interior design.
 
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Dravonic and others in here,

It's been stated from Japanese people that the leaked feature list from PD's website was written in such a formulation that a Japanese person could not explain what it means in any clear sense.

Hence all the different translations - they all based on something written very poorly in the first place.

Maybe just wait till we get a list they wish to show us - instead of translating and interpreting something that is unclear from its source

👍
 
serversurfer
You're expecting me to eat your serving for you, perhaps?

In case you fell asleep, we're going through the translation ourselves, and it looks like I was right and you guys have no idea what you're talking about. ;)
Click to expand...

So is that why Dravonics last words were "It's not looking good" because you were so "right" LOL

BTW here is the entire page.....

gt5.png


The problem you are having serversurfer is that you are basing your information mostly off incorrect translations.

I live in Taiwan and have many friends who can speak English and Japanese PERFECTLY. I sat them down to have them verbally translate it for me, and I picked them apart with nitpicky questions just so I could be sure.

I know EXACTLY what that page says. It is you who do not.
 
Time for another round of Japanese 101.:)

One of the more important things I don't see people addressing is that there's a comma between 内装 and ダメージに対応. Commas work in Japanese the same way that they do in English, they separate different ideas. Thus, what's contained in those brackets are two separate statements about premium models. Anyway, I'll come back to that in a bit.

Vocab:
内装: As Dravonic says, the best translation is "interior design". Keep in mind that this word holds contexts similar to household interior design, it's furnishings, decoration, etc. In a car, it's what the inside of the cabin looks like.
ダメージ: Damage. Easy.
対応: This seems to be the most difficult for most people. Google translate is not your friend here. It's very context sensitive as to the best word to translate it into English. Sometimes it would be correspond, or react or interact or support or any of a number of other words.
In computer related areas it's usually used to show support for something. For example, Flash CS4 *supports* the use of ActionScript 3. That's the usage I'd go for here, simply based on the context and the other words in the sentence.

に: Grammatical particle. Has several uses such as location, direction of movement and others. Here it is being used to show a link between two nouns (although the second noun is most likely a verb that they just didn't bother to write fully thanks to how some Japanese する verbs work).

So, given that there are two sentence fragments there and one consists of a single word that has been unambiguously translated already, I'll focus on the second.

ダメージに対応
Click to expand...
Using the definitions I outlined above, and the relationship between the two words using に, the best translation I would give it would be
Damage is supported.
Click to expand...
This is a sentence fragment, even in Japanese. The full sentence would be プレミアムモデルはダメージに対応する.

The other reason to disbelieve that the intended meaning is "interiors corresponding to damage" is this. Were you to write that in Japanese using the language they have in the article it would be 内装はダメージに対応(する).
In spoken language it would be acceptable to omit the は, but in a written document it would be extremely poor form. So much so, that I doubt a Japanese speaker could write that sentence unintentionally, it's just glaringly different in meaning.

I did keep screenshots of the site if anyone's interested, and I posted a full translation of the page here. Be warned that it's on my doujinshi translation site. It's super unworksafe outside of the single page I linked.



The page is not superbly written, but it's not incomprehensible to people who understand Japanese as some claim. And it is fairly clear in what it states.
170 "premium" cars support damage. 830 "standard" (worse than premium) cars do not have damage mentioned, so the logical inference is that they do not have damage.

I hope to be proven wrong, but that's what the page says. Until TGS, we can only hope that the page is wrong.
 
To Angelacaine :

I just copy pasted this from your site.

*******************************

Cars


-1000 makes/models
-170 premium models (with interiors and damage support)
-830 standard models (compatible models taken from GT4)
Translators Note: I interpret this as having 170 models with interiors and damage, and 830 models that are essentially upscaled GT4 models, whether those cars were in GT4 or not.

Courses

-More than 20 courses, and more than 60 layouts.
Translators Note: That’s literally what it says. I interpret that as 20 tracks (Suzuka/Fuji/Grand Valley/etc.) and 60 versions of those tracks (Suzuka East/West, Fuji F/GT).

****************************

This is exactly how it was translated to me by several of my Japanese speaking friends.

At the time everyone was in an uproar for there being only 20+ courses. Some people suggested that it was actually "60 courses confirmed with 20 more to be revealed"

I went back to my friends and asked them if this could be the case and they said no.

This is also why I keep saying that only 170 cars will have damage modeling.

Some people have suggested that it's saying "that all cars will have damage modeling but the premium ones will have damage modeling AND damage to the cockpit - as in crumpled dashboards ect"

I went back to my friends again and asked them if the japanese might say that. They said no.

But as much faith as I have in their translations I just CAN'T ACCEPT that only 170 cars will have cockpits. I fully expect ALL the cars to have cockpits.

I think ( IMO ) the "interiors" part is referring to the modeled engine under the hood, which can be seen when the hood flies up. The engine could definitely be considered "interior." So obviously the engine ( "interior" ) could only be seen on cars that can be damaged.

No point in rendering an engine that we will never see under the hood of an indestructible car.
 
I really think that list was posted just to confuse us!
No other explanation possible about why it's so confusing..
 
Simple SIM
To Angelacaine :

I just copy pasted this from your site.

*******************************

Cars


-1000 makes/models
-170 premium models (with interiors and damage support)
-830 standard models (compatible models taken from GT4)
Translators Note: I interpret this as having 170 models with interiors and damage, and 830 models that are essentially upscaled GT4 models, whether those cars were in GT4 or not.

Courses

-More than 20 courses, and more than 60 layouts.
Translators Note: That’s literally what it says. I interpret that as 20 tracks (Suzuka/Fuji/Grand Valley/etc.) and 60 versions of those tracks (Suzuka East/West, Fuji F/GT).

****************************

This is exactly how it was translated to me by several of my Japanese speaking friends.

At the time everyone was in an uproar for there being only 20+ courses. Some people suggested that it was actually "60 courses confirmed with 20 more to be revealed"

I went back to my friends and asked them if this could be the case and they said no.

This is also why I keep saying that only 170 cars will have damage modeling.

Some people have suggested that it's saying "that all cars will have damage modeling but the premium ones will have damage modeling AND damage to the cockpit - as in crumpled dashboards ect"

I went back to my friends again and asked them if the japanese might say that. They said no.

But as much faith as I have in their translations I just CAN'T ACCEPT that only 170 cars will have cockpits. I fully expect ALL the cars to have cockpits.

I think ( IMO ) the "interiors" part is referring to the modeled engine under the hood, which can be seen when the hood flies up. The engine could definitely be considered "interior." So obviously the engine ( "interior" ) could only be seen on cars that can be damaged.

No point in rendering an engine that we will never see under the hood of an indestructible car.
Click to expand...

Mate, I think we're on the same page. The translation is pretty clear, but if the game comes out as it states then GT5 will be somewhat of a disappointment.

Honestly, when I first saw the page my reaction was "If PD releases GT5 like this, then that's totally ****ed". If not all cars have cockpits, I think I and a lot of others would be severely disappointed. I think it's one of the few things that is currently within the realms of possibility that might actually have a significant effect on GT5 final sales. I hope that some gormless lackey in PD/Sony screwed up typing out that page....
 
serversurfer
Well, Google translates "に" as "to" and Babylon translates it as "at, in, on; to, into; upon; by." Would it be safe/reasonable to assume this is where they came up with "interior corresponds to damage"?
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. It can be the case, as I said I don't fully understand japanese but it's not that simple. The "ni" (に) particle is not a word and like the "no" (の) particle (from my prior explanation) can't be directly translated.

I know the "に" particle is used to tell location, objective, time or destination of an action. An example: "basu ni norimasu" (バスにのります). This means "enter the bus" and the "ni" particle is indicating what the verb (のります) is referring to. It's referring to the bus.

As far as I understand the particle "ni" (に) in "dameji ni taiou" (ダメージに対応) is merely telling what "correspondence" (taiou - 対応) is referring to. It would be more like "correspond to damage". The "interior" word is not in this sentence. It's in the previous one. They look like they are two different sentences bringing up two different topics or points:

1-)Interior design.
2-)[the premium models] correspond to damage (or better yet "support damage". Look at the first word here)

However, I'm telling you my knowledge is only basic. I'm not an expert or even average japanese speaker. In fact I don't even consider myself one yet. So, is it possible that japanese people refer to things in different ways and the second sentence can have some kind of link to the first one? Yes. I just think they are completely separate but I can't tell for sure. However let me put it this way, if I had to bet my life on it I'd go with separate.

EDIT: wow quite a few posts while I was writing and looks like angelcaine can explain better than I can. And it looks like I'll live xD
 
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angelacaine
Mate, I think we're on the same page. The translation is pretty clear, but if the game comes out as it states then GT5 will be somewhat of a disappointment.

Honestly, when I first saw the page my reaction was "If PD releases GT5 like this, then that's totally ****ed". If not all cars have cockpits, I think I and a lot of others would be severely disappointed. I think it's one of the few things that is currently within the realms of possibility that might actually have a significant effect on GT5 final sales. I hope that some gormless lackey in PD/Sony screwed up typing out that page....
Click to expand...

Well we have KY quoted as saying that ...

1. we should not expect damage modeling in all cars.

2. that list is accurate.

3. And that when it comes to damage modeling he's talking about race cars. He is also quoted as saying that only certain "sets" of cars will have damage but those sets aren't entirely written in stone yet.




So I'm pretty confident as to what I know as far as damage modeling. But it just doesn't make any sense to me that only 170 cars would have damage modeling and that ONLY those cars that can be damaged would have a cockpit.

That just CAN'T be true.

In Prologue we have all kinds of non race cars that have cockpits. If it gets announced at TGS that there are only 170 cars with cockpits, there's gonna be a RIOT. I just can't believe that will be the case.
 
I'd also like to state that I think this list is some kind of bad joke. 20 tracks? 170 cars with interiors? Makes no sense at all.

The only thing that is keeping me of getting deeply disappointed with the game is the faint hope that the list is bogus.

However I definitely liked those two things from angelacaine's translation:

-Vehicles can be rolled.
-Damage modelling (Deformation caused by the collision is reproduced perfectly).

So hopefully just a little bogus xD
 
Dravonic
I'd also like to state that I think this list is some kind of bad joke. 20 tracks? 170 cars with interiors? Makes no sense at all.

The only thing that is keeping me of getting deeply disappointed with the game is the faint hope that the list is bogus.
Click to expand...

If that list is true then what the hell have they been doing the past 5 years!
 
Dravonic
I'd also like to state that I think this list is some kind of bad joke. 20 tracks? 170 cars with interiors? Makes no sense at all.

The only thing that is keeping me of getting deeply disappointed with the game is the faint hope that the list is bogus.
Click to expand...

Not 20 tracks. 20+ courses ( environments ) which total 60+ tracks/ribbons.

I don't know if you think that's any more acceptable though.
 
Simple SIM
In Prologue we have all kinds of non race cars that have cockpits. If it gets announced at TGS that there are only 170 cars with cockpits, there's gonna be a RIOT. I just can't believe that will be the case.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I think the damage is believable in the sense of what they could achieve. But to only have 170 cockpits in the view of other games and the general gaming scene currently? The world's gaming media would rip them a new one.

They would be far better delaying it again than releasing with only 170 cockpits. TGS can't come fast enough, then at least we'll have new information to ponder over.
 
angelacaine
Indeed. I think the damage is believable in the sense of what they could achieve. But to only have 170 cockpits in the view of other games and the general gaming scene currently? The world's gaming media would rip them a new one.

They would be far better delaying it again than releasing with only 170 cockpits. TGS can't come fast enough, then at least we'll have new information to ponder over.
Click to expand...

I agree. Releasing before all the cars have cockpits shouldn't even be an option. The damage on certain cars I can live with, but I want the beautiful cockpits on all the cars.
 
And ( correct me if I'm wrong ) while it does say that the Premium models have cockpits it doesn't say anywhere that the standard models don't have cockpits. Right?

Two scenarios.

1. Premium models have Cockpits AND Damage modeling. Standard models have cockpit but no damage modeling.

- I'm not happy about it, but I can live with it.

2. Premium models have Cockpits AND Damage modeling. Standard models have no damage modeling and not even any cockpits.:crazy:



I AM expecting #1 to be true. #2 just sounds inconceivable. If #2 turned out to be true it would literally be a deal breaker for me.:nervous:
 
GT5 should at least have all cars with cock-pit views, no matter how basic they are. I cannot imagine GT5 having only a select cars with damage AND then having only a few select with cock-pit views. That's double dumb. So, again, all cars should have a cock pit views at least like GT Mobile, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all cars with GT5:P standard interior views. 5 years of development makes you wonder what should be done and what will be done.
 
BenzAMG
I really think that list was posted just to confuse us!
No other explanation possible about why it's so confusing..
Click to expand...

Confusion??!!! Distraction??!!! A decoy??!!! It all makes sense now! So in truth:

its-a-trap.jpg
 
What I don't get about the whole "20 courses/60 routes" thing is, that's an average of three routes per track, which seems like an awfully high average, especially given that some tracks, like Trial Mountain, probably won't have any alternate routes at all. They couldn't possibly mean…

20 tracks + 20 reversed tracks + 10 alternate routes + 10 reversed alternate routes

… could they? That seems like an impossibly low number, given the tracks that were in previous games, and the addition of two full racing series (which have been confirmed to have their own championships, and so one would assume, their own tracks to go along with them).

None of these translations make any sense. Tracks, courses, cockpits, damage… It just all seems messed up. :confused:
 
Simple SIM
Not 20 tracks. 20+ courses ( environments ) which total 60+ tracks/ribbons.

I don't know if you think that's any more acceptable though.
Click to expand...

Not really since they are essentially the same thing. Yeah it's very different when racing but still... some will have only a single turn (like Fuji in prologue) different.

And the main problem is 5 years. How can turn 10 have like 80 tracks (I think) while GT will have 20 since they both are in development for about 5 years. (forza 2 was clearly a rushed release while they were making forza 3. It's like an Xbox180 game lol).
 
Simple SIM
And ( correct me if I'm wrong ) while it does say that the Premium models have cockpits it doesn't say anywhere that the standard models don't have cockpits. Right?
Click to expand...
Doesn't that reasoning lead to a third scenario where both and cockpits damage are also included on the standard cars, though not specifically mentioned? And, come to think of it, a fourth, where the standard cars have damage but no cockpits?

And what about the "Damage representation (reproduced in full by real-time collision deformation)" in the vehicle physics section? Doesn't that seem to imply the presence of a generic, game-wide damage system? I mean, we're not assuming the new physics engine and "full fall in vehicles" only apply to the premium cars, are we? And what the hell is "full fall in vehicles" anyway?

Again, the more we know about this, the less sense it seems to make.
 
I really don't understand the outrage at having 20+ courses that equal 60+ tracks.

If you look at GT 4 there are only 54 tracks ( there are not 54 completely unique environments, there are 54 tracks ). But people see that 20+ courses number and automatically assume that GT 5 is getting less tracks than GT 4.

At 60+ tracks that's more than GT 4 ever had.
 
Oh b****cks i'm going for a week away on my bike & will get the news then from here or something, we are just clutching at straws.
 

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