The first GT game I & millions others will NEVER win a major race in.

251
Indonesia
Tenebrae Kingdom
FueledByMisery
SomeRandomAce
Well, I got qualified to pole position on an N200 Miata one-make race, then at the finals some Japanese guy rammed me high speed from behind when I was cornering, and got me spun out bringing down my position to 7th place. Not only that my SR was also decreased albeit not as much. Sure you can try your best to race cleanly and winning at the same time, but wait till some unlawful and unfair drivers ruin your day 😖
PD better fix the SR system already :(
 
5,619
England
Hampshire
Spurgy777
Yes going faster in qualifying tends to put you further and further back it seems. I remember turning in a super lap and all it did was start me at the back of a race with a bunch of aliens instead toward the front of people with my skill level. Not fun at all

I think the starting order should just be random. Find 24 drivers who qualified within a second of eachother and scramble their starting positions. Done. Maybe make the chances of starting higher better for a driver who completed more races that day, or who earned the most SR that day, or who completed the most passes that day. Make good starting positions something you earn.

Because the way its done now is just very flawed.

The flaw, if any, is in who gets picked for a race, not in where they start. Randomised grids are a terrible idea, just because the matchmaking hasn't worked as well as it should, doesn't mean you should just start ahead of faster people because you want a better chance of winning.
 

Sloppy Shades

Premium
573
United States
Daytona Beach
sloppysmusic
The flaw, if any, is in who gets picked for a race, not in where they start. Randomised grids are a terrible idea, just because the matchmaking hasn't worked as well as it should, doesn't mean you should just start ahead of faster people because you want a better chance of winning.

The company that firsts combines a great racing engine with a KILLER online matchup system will get everyone's $$$ I suspect. I agree random grid placements are no good. How about a hot lap system? Once the field is established everyone gets one hotlap without interference where their times decide the grid? I know this IS technically a qualifier but without the 15 minute free for all that usually entails.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
Yea Definitely. I agree. When racing against people if the same skill levels. Without BoP settings on then it comes to tuning and plain skill level. But in races with the BoP settings on then it just comes down to the best lines and your fellow drivers racing a clean race. When up against the A-S classes of drivers most of the results will come from the best tuning knowledge mixed with the least amount of mistakes.
If the system works as it should, neither tuning nor skill should make a difference to your results in the long run. The better tuner and/or driver you are, the better drivers/tuners you will be racing against. That's the whole point of an driver rating system, to match drivers of equal laptimes and safety ratings together to create close racing. If you are continuously successful you should be paired with faster and faster drivers until you aren't.
 

Corsa

Premium
2,101
United States
United States
So not to sound sarcastic, but the OP is saying GT Sport will be just like real world racing such as Blancpain and F1...
Where only the top drivers stand on the podium?
Sounds like PD have nailed it if that's the case.
 

Sloppy Shades

Premium
573
United States
Daytona Beach
sloppysmusic
XXI
So not to sound sarcastic, but the OP is saying GT Sport will be just like real world racing such as Blancpain and F1...
Where only the top drivers stand on the podium?
Sounds like PD have nailed it if that's the case.

Well yes..if it were marketed as the hardcore online racer that pits you against the best in the world...patience, practice, lots of learning and you can experience as close to the real thing you can get. Except it's a PS4 mass audience online simcade racer. That needs to sell millions and keep them happy. Which is the issue here. Dang I would LOVE a PS4 easy to loadup version of iRacing. I think we all would? I don't think that's what PD were aiming for though?
 
307
Austria
::1
I don't think that their skill based matchmaking was active during the beta.

I expect that when the full game has been released and we are a couple of weeks in. That you will be matched with more people of the same skill. Obviously these things always take some additional adjusting and tweaking.

It was active and it doesn't actually aim at matching equally fast players together. If every driver in the race would have exactly the same qualifying time, it would be extremely hard for passes to be made and it would be a very frustrating race for everyone. Instead, the system tries to pick a mix of slightly slower and slightly faster drivers. In my opinion, the system works extremely well.

The way qualifying works in sport mode is tricky. Yes it saves you the time from having to qualify for each and every race, but I've had it where improving my qualifying time took me out of the front to midfield to the back of the pack making a win impossible. It felt like a punishment more then a reward.

Unless your qualifying times are at the very edge of the population (fastest in the world, slowest in the world), your starting position in the match-made races is probably random. I very much doubt the match-making system uses hard-coded qualifying time ranges to make its picks, so I don't think you can do anything to influence your starting position.

I think it's best to just drive your fastest in qualifying. Faking a slow qualifying time won't help you get a win because the races are quite short and overtaking isn't always easy.
 
1,314
United Kingdom
Coventry
graveltrap
I wonder if the focus on SR has contributed to the problem experienced, it simply narrows the pool of players available to far to find a good match at this stage of the games life.

I have had the opposite experience I did very few sport mode races, just six in fact, from those six races I had five poles, three wins, two second places. I like to try and understand the car and track before I race so spent more time in qualifying than racing! Edit: I should say I am about two seconds a lap off the ultimate pace in quali.

But my lack of focus on racing has lead to me also being out of place in the sport world, the player base is again small so the matching is poor, but at least I am running at the front, and able to improve my ratings from that position.

It will take weeks if not months for players to find a place in the world of GT Sport and I am hopeful that this will lead to some good close racing, win or lose!

I also hope what I have seen of sport mode so far is just akin to GT6 quick races and that it will offer more depth and variety not to mention longer races, which in turn should lead to a more enjoyable experience.
 
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PzR Slim

Premium
6,806
England
Europe
GTP_Slim
PzR Slim
XXI
So not to sound sarcastic, but the OP is saying GT Sport will be just like real world racing such as Blancpain and F1...
Where only the top drivers stand on the podium?
Sounds like PD have nailed it if that's the case.
There are not millions of people around the world taking part in those series though...
 
44
Netherlands
Netherlands
It was active and it doesn't actually aim at matching equally fast players together. If every driver in the race would have exactly the same qualifying time, it would be extremely hard for passes to be made and it would be a very frustrating race for everyone. Instead, the system tries to pick a mix of slightly slower and slightly faster drivers. In my opinion, the system works extremely well

I wasn't really referring to qualifying times. But more being matches with same DR. I had multiple matches where I was the only DR D and all the others where DR B and C.
I don't really know how DR is calculated. But I'm guessing it stand for your overall skill?

But as long as I'm having fun and improving it doesn't really matter to me. But I'm just interested in how they match people together.
 

Sloppy Shades

Premium
573
United States
Daytona Beach
sloppysmusic
Reading comments on here regarding qualifying and matching up algorithms has been enlightening. PLUS read elsewhere that the modern car lineup was just to comply with the FIA thing so there WILL be old cars available. I didnt know you could watch videos of the race leaders and aliens (in the lobby after the race?). Soooo I reckon now there will be no GT7 after all I will probably just get this pre-order anyways. I have to accept it wont be my rainy Sunday 8 hour career building gaming day like GT6 was but it can fill the drop-in/drop-out quick racing slot I currently have several times a day. Plus I want to race the Ring again but this time on the PS4 :D
 
565
United Kingdom
Didcot, Oxfordshire
danardif1
Its just going to be the same as PC2, where in a few months the driving rating system will work itself out where by-and-large you'll only be competing with similarly skilled drivers on both speed and safety ratings.

In my experience on the demo version, the competitive and sporting level of the races I was competing in only got better the higher up the ratings I got. I was a B in both DR and SR by the end, and the races I was in the last day were of a way higher quality than the initial melee those first ones were where really good guys were mixed up with those who like to ruin other people's days.

I won more races early on than later in the week, but it was far more enjoyable battling with players of my level than some of the early wins where I streaked ahead and won fairly easily. There's winning and there's winning against a competitive field.
 
7,846
GTP_Royalton
The flaw, if any, is in who gets picked for a race, not in where they start. Randomised grids are a terrible idea, just because the matchmaking hasn't worked as well as it should, doesn't mean you should just start ahead of faster people because you want a better chance of winning.

The grids are already random. With the same qualifying time I've started in the front, middle, and back. I just want there to be a method behind the procedure.

I shouldnt start ahead of faster people just because I want a better chance at winning? Theres always someone faster then you. If you start up front its not because you had a brilliant qualifying time, but because you were fortunate enough to be the fastest of the group you were matched with. Nothing more or less then that. Your 1:30.0 lap might give you pole position in one group, or make you start 24th in another.

As I mentioned earlier, I was being regularly placed midpack with my qualifying time, so I improved it for the next race and all it did was make me start at the back of a much faster group of drivers.

As I said, match a group of drivers up who are within a second or so, and line them up based on how well they've done that day, number of passes completed, percentage of races finished, SR rating performance, etc.

As it stands theres this maddening scenario where you start in the top 4 one race and have a chance at winning, whereas the very next race you might start last and have no chance. It just doesnt feel fair. People should be given more ways to control their destiny, which is why I feel starting position should be determined by more then the luck of the draw.
 
5,619
England
Hampshire
Spurgy777
The grids are already random. With the same qualifying time I've started in the front, middle, and back. I just want there to be a method behind the procedure.

No, they're not random, the matching making might be inconsistent but that doesn't make it random. I don't know about you but every lobby I've been in people have been put on the grid based on their qualifying time, which is far from random.

I shouldnt start ahead of faster people just because I want a better chance at winning?

No, that's not how racing works.

Theres always someone faster then you. If you start up front its not because you had a brilliant qualifying time, but because you were fortunate enough to be the fastest of the group you were matched with. Nothing more or less then that. Your 1:30.0 lap might give you pole position in one group, or make you start 24th in another.

The point is if you're the fastest in that lobby you're the fastest in that lobby and should start first, that's the whole point of qualifying. Yes the matchmaking should try and be as consistent and competitive as possible, but it makes no sense to just put people in a random order, that just makes an inconsistencies in the matchmaking worse.

As I mentioned earlier, I was being regularly placed midpack with my qualifying time, so I improved it for the next race and all it did was make me start at the back of a much faster group of drivers.

Without knowing the ins and outs of how the match making system, neither you or I can explain why that happens, it's safe to say it's not random because there is undoubtedly some match making criteria. It could just be that other people also went faster between races and your new fastest time still wasn't good enough to stop you moving down overall. It could be that your DR increased enough that you were put in with higher ranked drivers than the race before. Or maybe it varies the ranks of the people you're put in with to get more data points and properly rank you, which is common thing to do in all games with a match making system.

I could go on, but basically, the match making system is probably very complicated, so it's pretty stupid to automatically assume perceived randomness is due to the system being random.

As I said, match a group of drivers up who are within a second or so, and line them up based on how well they've done that day, number of passes completed, percentage of races finished, SR rating performance, etc.

But why introduce all these arbitrary factors for deciding the grid order? I don't see how this helps in any way compared to simply making the grid based on qualifying times, all you're doing is making it needlessly complicated and removing an objective measure of drivers speeds in a certain lobby, and replacing it with a set of subjective ones.

As it stands theres this maddening scenario where you start in the top 4 one race and have a chance at winning, whereas the very next race you might start last and have no chance. It just doesnt feel fair. People should be given more ways to control their destiny, which is why I feel starting position should be determined by more then the luck of the draw.

As I've already said, without knowing the ins and outs of the system you can't just put the results of the match making down to random chance or luck. And ironically, to somehow solve this apparent random luck of the draw system, you want to randomise the grid some more. Can you not see how bad an idea that is? It makes no sense whatsoever.
 
8,039
Germany
Hamburg
zzz_pt
As I mentioned earlier, I was being regularly placed midpack with my qualifying time, so I improved it for the next race and all it did was make me start at the back of a much faster group of drivers.

That's normal.

Imagine football (or any other sport really). All of them have different leagues / divisions for different types of teams. The best are on the top divisions, the not so good, are in the lowest divisions.

If we start with a slow lap time on a lower division, we'll be at the back of the grid of that "division", ie lobby. If we improve out lap, we might get to the pole position on that division and against the same people.

But if we improve out lap time, we go up one division and will now be matched against faster people from a higher division. In this division we're slower and start on the back of the grid, but we're among better drivers in general.

This is easy to understand if you look at the 20/24 people lobbies as divisions of a major sport. Different lobbies will have different drivers with different skills but being the last one against the best in Europe / Americas / Asia is not worse than starting first against the slower of the slowest.

This is how I view it of course. It's not scientific.

As it stands theres this maddening scenario where you start in the top 4 one race and have a chance at winning, whereas the very next race you might start last and have no chance. It just doesnt feel fair. People should be given more ways to control their destiny, which is why I feel starting position should be determined by more then the luck of the draw.

Or you might start in second, as I have, behind the fastest driver in your region, and finish second. Starting upfront or in the back doesn't mean a thing really. It all depends on who you're up against.
 
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Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
The grids are already random. With the same qualifying time I've started in the front, middle, and back. I just want there to be a method behind the procedure.

I shouldnt start ahead of faster people just because I want a better chance at winning? Theres always someone faster then you. If you start up front its not because you had a brilliant qualifying time, but because you were fortunate enough to be the fastest of the group you were matched with. Nothing more or less then that. Your 1:30.0 lap might give you pole position in one group, or make you start 24th in another.

As I mentioned earlier, I was being regularly placed midpack with my qualifying time, so I improved it for the next race and all it did was make me start at the back of a much faster group of drivers.

As I said, match a group of drivers up who are within a second or so, and line them up based on how well they've done that day, number of passes completed, percentage of races finished, SR rating performance, etc.

As it stands theres this maddening scenario where you start in the top 4 one race and have a chance at winning, whereas the very next race you might start last and have no chance. It just doesnt feel fair. People should be given more ways to control their destiny, which is why I feel starting position should be determined by more then the luck of the draw.
It has to work that way. When the game is in full swing you are just one player of thousands and no matter how tight the qualifying is in your particular lobby you could start first, last or anywhere in between. They key thing is going to be that over the long run you get a good mix of starting positions to give you a different series of challenges. Starting at the back to pick off stragglers one race, battling in a tight mid-pack the next and then challenging for the lead in another. Sure you'll run into a streak of races here and there where you seem to start at the back or front for a while but it should all balance out in the long run.
 
53
Canada
Windsor Ontario
notes2828
I already said my peace In a reply earlier. But I just ought I'd shed a little light. At the ewill of the day... Millions of people at some point will be racing in sport mode on a consistent basis. If you are in the A to S driver rating. And A to S sportsmanship rating. And you are having consistent solid clean fast races ,. Whether you win or place 24th that in its self is an accomplishment. 24th out of a grid of what could be some of the best in the world.... Is an accomplishment. Anything top 10 in the S-S ranked races. ( S-driver rating S-sportsmanship ). Is something to be super proud of. Winning at these levels for 99% of the millions of people playing will NEVER happen. But... Top 10 is what I myself will be aiming for as well as super happy with. With that being said it will probably not happen without taking the competition seriously and respecting the Game. People who are into that same mindset I will be should aim at what's possible. Doing your best. Finishing 24th in a grid of 24 solid drivers. Well at times that's good enough for me. See y'all on the track. Let's get it!!!! #getgud
 
171
Netherlands
Utrecht
I will probably never win a major race, offline races aren't major right? Cause I'm planning on winning all offline events and for me a bronze is a minor win and gold is total winnage :P and about online, all I would care about is at least gaining some positions and maintain clean driving, for that I'm still gonna need lots of practice cause clean driving isn't that easy with a controller but it's doable as long as you have good control over the thumbstick and keep focusing, sitting back and relaxing isn't an option during races.
I won't be able to buy a supported racing wheel anytime soon, but I do have an old PS2 era "Logitech MOMO Racing" steering wheel which works on nearly every racing game on my PC (though not all with good FFB setup) but I guess there will be no way to use this wheel with GT Sport, or is there some sort of USB adapter to emulate a different racing wheel on the PS4 using my good old MOMO?

Just did some googling and found the answer to my own question: Using older unsupported Racing wheels on PS or Xbox using GIMX
Maybe I'll give it a try when I start thinking my driving skills can't improve anymore by using a controller and I feel like I really need a racing wheel. I could just get that GIMX adapter from their shop, it's €30, that's way cheaper then the cheapest supported racing wheel for PS4.
Though I still have the problem that my PS4 is connected to my TV and my PC isn't near it plus I can't attach my wheel to my coffee table so I would also need a new piece of furniture to place between me and the TV, now I only use my Logitech MOMO on my PC attached to the desk.
It's a little puzzle I must figure out in time.
 

Sloppy Shades

Premium
573
United States
Daytona Beach
sloppysmusic
Personally yes Im just happy to be in the same race as the big boys. That would be an achievement for me. I would have earned that! . This post was just about the average Joe who wonders wow I cant win in this game ever..A hardcore racer for those of us who want to just belong at that level.well thats amazing for me. Im buying the game after release. no pre order as i dont care about the fluff they are offering.
 
1,877
United Kingdom
Bury St Edmunds
GTP_Caine
Don't forget this was only a demo, alot of the 'aliens' are sitting at the default ratings still so therefor will more than likely win in the 'lower' categories. Once the full game is released and people have worked on their ratings i'm certain the grids will be more balanced.

As for grid position, i'm not certain as I have only done a handful of races in Sport mode, but from my experiences, anyone who has set a qualifying time will be placed in time order at the front of the grid. Then the drivers who haven't set a qualifying time are placed in the grid behind them in order of when they 'entered' the race event.

I entered an event as soon as the option allowed me to without setting any qualifying time, and i was the first driver on the grid who hadn't set a qualifying time. Another race i entered with only 1 minute remaining before the start and I was last on the grid.

I could be completely wrong here and it might have just been a coincedence, but from my experience it's all working as intended.
 
307
Austria
::1
The grids are already random.
...
As it stands theres this maddening scenario where you start in the top 4 one race and have a chance at winning, whereas the very next race you might start last and have no chance. It just doesnt feel fair. People should be given more ways to control their destiny, which is why I feel starting position should be determined by more then the luck of the draw.

So you think randomly matched groups aren't fair, and instead you should be given preference, and everyone else should have a disadvantage? Maybe PD should add micro-transactions with which you can buy your way to the pole position?

This attitude is why online game matchmaking systems are criticized unfairly. So many people think they should always win, and when they don't, the matchmaking system screwed up.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
The matchmaking should actually make it much easier to win for everyone except the top few percent of players.
Nope. Mathematically you have (1/average lobby size) chance of winning. If the average lobby is 20 your long term win ratio will be 1/20.
 
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Furinkazen

Madman
Premium
44,127
United Kingdom
Blackburn
Furi_54
WHAAHHH WHAAHH WHAAAHHH I CAN'T WINNNNNN.

No, i'm sorry. Total rubbish.

You get good by racing better drivers and learning off them. Yes you may have more of a chance of winning in a group of similar skill but you damn well won't progress your skills half as much as racing against the "big guns".

It's funny, people are complaining about doing well and having to work hard for a good finish as a result - well is an alternative is go slow and/or sandbag then?
 

cjr3559

Premium
2,511
United States
Ohio
cjr3559
Don't forget this was only a demo, alot of the 'aliens' are sitting at the default ratings still so therefor will more than likely win in the 'lower' categories. Once the full game is released and people have worked on their ratings i'm certain the grids will be more balanced.

As for grid position, i'm not certain as I have only done a handful of races in Sport mode, but from my experiences, anyone who has set a qualifying time will be placed in time order at the front of the grid. Then the drivers who haven't set a qualifying time are placed in the grid behind them in order of when they 'entered' the race event.

I entered an event as soon as the option allowed me to without setting any qualifying time, and i was the first driver on the grid who hadn't set a qualifying time. Another race i entered with only 1 minute remaining before the start and I was last on the grid.

I could be completely wrong here and it might have just been a coincedence, but from my experience it's all working as intended.

Probably a coincidence. I entered (1) single Sport race during the entire demo period. Without posting a qualifying time, and entering less than a minute before the entry closed, I started 4th.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,466
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
I think you need to stop being a big baby lol it's just a game online is about having fun if you don't like coming last every time then don't enter races just join track day rooms and enjoy the cars and tracks....

WHAAHHH WHAAHH WHAAAHHH I CAN'T WINNNNNN.

No, i'm sorry. Total rubbish.

You get good by racing better drivers and learning off them. Yes you may have more of a chance of winning in a group of similar skill but you damn well won't progress your skills half as much as racing against the "big guns".

It's funny, people are complaining about doing well and having to work hard for a good finish as a result - well is an alternative is go slow and/or sandbag then?
The franchise encouraged winning at all costs for 15 years. All the payouts were geared in that direction. Win, no matter how, to speed up your game progress. Now the thrust of the game is online, there is no traditional offline career and people are concerned about many things including winning, driver ratings, game progression etc. Calling people names and making ad homenim attacks doesn't further the discussion although I'm sure it makes you feel pretty good, especially coming from a guy so concerned about winning that the first line of his signature is a summary of his previous game victories.
 
408
England
United Kingdom
Rob--M--
It is fun battling for 10th but I feel like i'll never be good enough to win either ( i use a dualshock )