The Manor-Marussia Saga

  • Thread starter Thread starter TenEightyOne
  • 601 comments
  • 36,666 views
Well, I was basing that on the requirement for some teams to run a third car if grids drop below 20, but after googling "minimum grids for f1 for commercial rights" I found that there's no clear figure.
 
http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/third-cars-f1-not-required-lawyers-say

F1 grid could shrink to below 16 cars without contractual repercussions, contrary to speculation
The number of cars racing in Formula One could shrink to less than 16 -- without the sport breaching its contracts, according to leading auto racing lawyers. The revelation comes on the heels of recent collapses by the Marussia and Caterham teams. Several other teams are also thought to be at risk, notably Sauber, Force India and Lotus. Indeed F1’s grid size may be on track to shrink if a minimum number of cars don’t have to race.

If Marussia and Caterham fail to make it to the start of next season, there would be 18 cars on the grid, as there were at this season’s penultimate race in Brazil and the one before it at Circuit of the Americas near Austin, Texas. Persistent talk during the past couple of months said that if more teams go under, the remaining ones would have to field a third car. The belief was that remaining teams would have to field those third cars to prevent F1 from breaching contracts with race organizers and its governing body, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), which ultimately owns the sport’s commercial rights. However, this now appears not to be the case.

The minimum number of cars required has long been a subject of great speculation, with some suggesting there is no minimum number, while others say it is somewhere between 14 and 20. However, Autoweek has learned that while the sport’s contracts with race organizers and the FIA do refer to a minimum of 16 cars, this is not an “absolute obligation” according to leading attorneys.

The race promotion contract for the European Grand Prix in Valencia, Spain, recently came into the public domain after the venue held its final race in 2012. It states that F1 “shall use its reasonable endeavors” to ensure at least 16 cars race. This reflects the details of F1’s contract with the FIA, which are disclosed in the prospectus for the stalled stock-market flotation of the sport. The key part states that F1 “must attempt to procure that at least 16 cars participate in the world championship.”

Jonathan Lux, a lawyer at London’s Stone Chambers who works in the motorsports business, says that “neither contract imposes an absolute obligation on F1 to ensure a threshold of 16 cars.

“The Rights contract simply refers to an ‘attempt to procure’ -- not even requiring that there be a ‘reasonable’ attempt. [So] at least arguably, an attempt falling short of a reasonable attempt would suffice.”

Charles Braithwaite, media and sports partner at British law firm Collyer Bristow, adds that the requirement in the race contract for F1 to use reasonable endeavors “is not hard and fast.”

He says, “The onus is less than an obligation to use ‘all reasonable endeavors’ or ‘best endeavors’, two other frequently used terms. None provide an absolute obligation.”

The gist: F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone needs only to show he attempted to procure 16 cars, and used his reasonable endeavors to do so, and if he does that, the sport will not be in breach of contract even if there are less than 16 cars on the grid. This isn’t an unthinkable scenario as Ecclestone told British broadcaster Sky Sports at the Brazilian Grand Prix, “It could go down to 14. If we lose another two teams that is what will happen.” This is where the controversial third car clause comes in.

F1’s contracts with the teams state they may have to run a third car if the grid drops below 20. It didn’t come into effect in Austin or Brazil because the contracts also say teams are allowed to miss up to three races.

However, the discussion about running third cars raged throughout both race weekends, with F1’s smallest teams claiming they had seen an e-mail outlining a plan to have Red Bull and Ferrari supply a third car next season.

Whether this actually happens now looks far less important. Instead, the fact that a discussion took place about it may prove to be significant as it could show that Ecclestone attempted to procure 16 cars and used his reasonable endeavors to do so. If less than 16 cars race next year, then it is this fact which could keep F1 under his control: Should he breach his contract with the FIA, the governing body could use it as justification for reclaiming the commercial rights. Ecclestone paid the FIA $313.6m for a 100-year license to those rights beginning in 2011, which means the governing body will have to wait a long time to reclaim them unless Ecclestone’s F1 Group breaches its contract.

By Christian Sylt
 
Meanwhile, Force India go into arse-covering mode, claiming that Manor's application to use a 2014 car was incomplete, and that they should resubmit their application, this time divulging details of how they intend to fund themselves:

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117617/marussia-should-reapply-force-india

In other words, they have created a perfect Catch-22: Manor's investors won't commit the money without the approval to enter, but Force India will block that entry without the money being committed up-front.
 
It's one thing to extend support to a smaller team and another to support a failed enterprise with GP2 quality car. Marussia has no place in F1 in it's current state.
 
If a driver cannot safely lap a slower vehicle, then they have no business being a racing driver, much less in Formula 1. There have always been backmarkers, and there have always been cars to lap, and they gave never proven to be a consistent danger to anyone. I see no reason why that would suddenly change if Manor had permission to race the MR03, and so consequently, suggesting that letting them race is a logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion rather than an argument based on any actual fact.

If a car is unable to make 107%* of the pole time then it has no business being on the track either.

*Unless force majeure.
 
If a driver cannot safely lap a slower vehicle, then they have no business being a racing driver, much less in Formula 1. There have always been backmarkers, and there have always been cars to lap, and they gave never proven to be a consistent danger to anyone. I see no reason why that would suddenly change if Manor had permission to race the MR03, and so consequently, suggesting that letting them race is a logical fallacy, an appeal to emotion rather than an argument based on any actual fact.

I'm more concerned with seeing similar situations to that you see in Lemans where LMP1 cars are that much quicker that it nearly always leads to a catastrophic crash. If Manor was a team that was at least close to the midfield or back end last year then fair enough. But allowing a car to race that was already off the pace, let alone also last years car is pointless.

I think its "fair" for Manor to receive their share for last year however they should be competing with a current spec car that has enough development to at least be reasonably close to the back of the field, not multiple seconds a lap off the pace.
 
Marussia's return with a 2014 car has been rejected by the F1 Strategy Group, and their prize money distributed to the remaining smallest teams is fair, according to Bernie.



Force India (which has F1 Strategy Group representation), Lotus and Sauber - will benefit from sharing Marussia's 2014 prize money if the team does not race this year. There were also serious doubts about the team's readiness for the Australian Grand Prix on March 15 as well as "compliance issues". F1's supply chain was also stung by the loss of both Marussia and Caterham last year, and with outstanding debts remaining, it is not surprising its rivals wanted concrete plans detailing Marussia's return.

"The money that they should have got gets distributed amongst the teams that are racing," Ecclestone added. "That's a pretty good reason [to vote against Marussia] I suppose."



Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/marussia/motorsport/story/190867.html#APtgktlhsDv7MP31.99
 
How long until the Super GP2 talk starts up again? They're going to need them soon or it's going to be very quiet on track with only 16 (or less!) cars.

All their fancy work with tyres and DRS and KERS to promote overtaking and wheel to wheel racing is going to be useless if there isn't enough cars on track for actual battles to break out. I feel sorry for the commentators who are going to have to find something to talk about while a few cars go round and round.

There's a lot to be said for endurance racing, where there are so many cars on track that there's just constant action simply through the statistics of the thing. 40+ cars on track just means that there's always something exciting happening.
 
I feel sorry for the commentators who are going to have to find something to talk about while a few cars go round and round
Well it's not like they haven't had any practise.
 
Kinda feel for the guys at marussia, then again I dont feel for those in charge of it. If you cant pay to play then stay at bay. F1 is the big boy arena. Theres no love for small teams, regardless of what the others may say. One less team means more prize money for the others. I think it cuts both ways. Why allow them in with an illegal car? If every other team were allowed that theyd save lots of money. I can see a team like Sauber saying 'what the hell?' Most of the gains this year will be from the new engines. Run a 2014 car with a 2015 engine and save some cash. Yeah, these guys arent going for that.
 
I'm more concerned with seeing similar situations to that you see in Lemans where LMP1 cars are that much quicker that it nearly always leads to a catastrophic crash.

In LMP's defense, most LMP crashes of recent have been caused by inexperienced GT drivers.
 
I'm more concerned with seeing similar situations to that you see in Lemans where LMP1 cars are that much quicker that it nearly always leads to a catastrophic crash.
There are much greater closing speeds in Le Mans.

Potentially 16 if Force India's rumored issues are true. Not too farfetched since Vijay Mallya has been in financial trouble himself recently.
Let's not get carried away. Wait for some evidence that Force India are in trouble first.
 
Racer.com not long ago (lost the article) had a report that Force India had actually received their chassis and that they would be at Melbourne just missing the test with the 2015 car because it still isn't ready. But then again I think previously before that they released something about them risking missing the race altogether. It seems like only Force India knows what's going on.
 
The only "evidence" that Force India are in trouble is their absence from the Jerez test. But it's worth pointing out that the turn-around between 2014 and 2015 has been one of the tightest on record, and so a single hiccup in the supply chain - particularly early in the process - could set construction of the new car back weeks.
 
Meanwhile, Force India go into arse-covering mode, claiming that Manor's application to use a 2014 car was incomplete, and that they should resubmit their application, this time divulging details of how they intend to fund themselves
To follow up on this, it seems the King-led consortium had no idea that their proposal was being discussed, and hence they had no opportunity to put a full plan to the SWG:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...er-greed-of-Formula-One-blocks-its-plans.html

It will be interesting to find out who put it on the agenda - the 1000bhp engines and other possible changes for 2017 were being discussed; that much had been known for some time.
 
It's one thing to extend support to a smaller team and another to support a failed enterprise with GP2 quality car. Marussia has no place in F1 in it's current state.

(Not singling you out here Dhalism, just taking your post as an example)

I don't like this attitude that the team does not deserve to be in the sport. The reality is that towards the end of last year - having scored points and beaten two other teams in the WCC - their investors pulled out. So the team went into administration and sought a new investor, which they have done (hopefully this time it isn't a dodgy Russian supercar company who didn't actually make any cars). During this period they couldn't build a 2015 spec car, and with there only being a few weeks to the start of the season, they require dispensation to run a 2014 spec car for the first few races.

I don't see how any of that makes them some low quality outfit unworthy of F1 - and that is completely ignoring the fact they entered with the promise of a budget cap that didn't happen, and the absurdly unfair distribution of money to the teams.

I see a lot of people on various boards questioning the purpose of the smaller teams, to me there's three very important reasons why they should be there: keeping the grid sizes up, fielding younger drivers (Bianchi being a prime example although sadly we'll never know how successful he would've been), and injecting a bit more heart and soul into the sport - seeing teams like Mercedes or Red Bull winning is all well and good, but ultimately they are marketing machines who will come and go. Teams like Manor, Minardi, or Jordan, say - teams that were there for the love of the sport - personally, they're the ones who make F1 a bit more special.
 
The reality is that towards the end of last year - having scored points and beaten two other teams in the WCC - their investors pulled out. So the team went into administration and sought a new investor, which they have done (hopefully this time it isn't a dodgy Russian supercar company who didn't actually make any cars).
I'm pretty sure that the team failed because the car company collapsed, and that sanctions on Russia played a part in that.

the absurdly unfair distribution of money to the teams.
The teams don't have a revenue problem. They have an expense problem.

Claiming that the solution is a more-equal distribution of prize money is the favourite argument of fans looking to undermine Ecclestobe, but at best it defers the problem fir a few years and at worst it will only exaggerate the problem.

Say a team has a budget of $100 million, and of that amount, they raise $80 million through sponsorship and $20 million in prize money. But then the prize money is redistributed to be more equal, and they're getting $50 million from Bernie. So what's the team going to do? They're still capable of raising $80 million on their own, but do you honestly think that they are going to scale that back to $50 million to keep an operating budget of $100 million? Of course not. They're going to take the $50 million from Bernie and the $80 million that they can raise on their own, and spend $130 million. And that might sound great, but when teams have money, they will spend it. Giving them more only defers the problem in the short term and make it worse in the long, because when they hit trouble again in the future, it will be harder to save them.
 
I'm pretty sure that the team failed because the car company collapsed, and that sanctions on Russia played a part in that.

Indeed, hence why the company pulled their support the moment the Sochi GP was done I believe.

The teams don't have a revenue problem. They have an expense problem.

I definitely wouldn't claim it is the ultimate solution, I think both aspects are a problem - or at least that the two are pretty much intertwined. Indeed teams will simply spend more even if they have the funds to go racing, although it's got to the point where some teams simply can't raise the money to see out a season, and I think that's the important thing here - this isn't about teams spending ever increasing amounts to gain a few tenths over each other, this is about teams getting to the grid in the first place. Just look at how intent Manor on getting back this year rather than next - it's clear the rescue bid hinges somewhat on getting their (fully deserved) 2014 prize money to cover their debts. Expenditure is part of this, I think the new engines is the most obvious example, where the FIA let the manufacturers go to town with them and they're now charging nonsense prices.

So I definitely agree that you need to look at cost capping - as I said above it's something that should have been in place when Manor entered. But I don't think you can ignore the money distribution either. CVC take the lion's share of the profits and I think it's hard to justify why the teams shouldn't be getting more, perhaps even with cost capping. And when Ferarri get, what is it, an extra $100m just for turning up..........I know everyone and their dog trots out that example, but it really speaks for itself. I don't think either revenue or expense is sustainable right now, and the sport may well have to address both if it's to avoid the worst case scenario of a 12 car grid.
 
I'm more concerned with seeing similar situations to that you see in Lemans where LMP1 cars are that much quicker that it nearly always leads to a catastrophic crash. If Manor was a team that was at least close to the midfield or back end last year then fair enough. But allowing a car to race that was already off the pace, let alone also last years car is pointless.

I think its "fair" for Manor to receive their share for last year however they should be competing with a current spec car that has enough development to at least be reasonably close to the back of the field, not multiple seconds a lap off the pace.

You act like it's a Mastercard...

*hopefully Legacy will get this :sly:
 
Back