The Most Overrated Car(s) in GT4

[niky]

My bad... that was a spur of the moment reaction. Of course the Cobra isn't leaf-sprung. It actually rides on leather straps, like horse carriages did. My mistake. And the engine isn't actually the size of the Ford Fiesta... maybe a Daihatsu Midget.

But seriously, yes, I do think it's a great car, considering its era and just about everything else available at the time... and I love driving it on N1s or N2s.

Tame? I guess, considering the limitations imposed by the GT4 engine. Heck, even Need For Speed gives you torque steer off the line... so we ought to see it in GT5... or else.

RE: regarding race suspensions... Actually, to get that much adjustment for just 15-17k would be utterly wonderful... imagine the zillions of springs included in that kit.

 

[GotTorque]

While I agree with your main points about the Cobra not being overrated, in regard to 0-100-0 quite a few cars that (taking into account inflation) costing the same or less than a Cobra could beat it. Most Caterham, Aerial or Radical's could do the job.

Have a look at this years 0-100-0 test results from Autocar


Now don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not discounting the Cobra's 0-100-0 history, it held the world record for a long time, but the world has moved on and a lot of non-supercars can now beat it.

Yes they are very focused cars (the likes of the Radical or Caterham), but no more so than the Cobra was in its day.

Neat info. I only looked at hte '06 results for now, but that shows that I'm talking about. 11 cars, of which the C6 Z06 is the last. That's somewhat rarified air. Even more so when breaking down the types - 1 is a motorcycle, 1 is a grand prix car, 1 is a WRC car, and at least 1 more looks to be a race car (not familiar with the Brooke Double R).

If we count all those, that's 7 street cars. Of which, at leas 1, the Atom, is a grand prix car for the street and not really a street car.

There are a lot more than 7 sports cars in the 2006 model year.

As for the Atom and Radical. I'm not real up on the Radical, but the Atom I seriously doubt would be street legal in the US. Perhaps if you tried to tag it as a kit car of some kind, ya might find a loop hole, but just buying it straight from Aerial, I don't really see happening. On top of that, it's got no windshield, and no body work.

I would argue that it is a good deal more specialized than the Cobra, which, was a street legal road car that met all the requirements of it's day, and as a result, is still legal today.

Its a 1964 car that will dominate a lot of cars today in the dry, once the rain hits the road its game over for the Cobra.

True, but it's a roadster. Who drives a roadster in the rain? (besides the crazy brits lol)

When I think of a car being pushed hard, to me that dictates dry conditions. No matter how many times I see Hammond, Clarkson and the Stig racing in a downpour, I will never do anything more than the speed limit if it's raining. (or snowing) (especially in my toy, should I be caught out in the rain, with 332 rear wheel lb ft of tq, that's not something I really want to push in slippery conditions)

That said, there is no denying that an STi, or Evo, or even Delta Integrale would mop the floor with a Cobra in slippery conditions.

Point blank, the GT4 Cobra is too easy to drive.

I disagree. To a point.

While it may be true that GT4 is missing off the line torque steer (and thus the donut issue), while moving at high speed, it's a different matter. Somewhere I read about a racer who offered opinions on GT4 and Enthusia and said that the former was better at high speed physics and the latter at slow speed physics. Given that racing is all about high speed.....

Besides, we are stuck with a crappy set of buttons or tiny joysticks (most of us, that is), that interface almost demands that some issues be smoothed over a bit. Because in real life one could far more easily deal with them. The net result is 0, which is what ya want. (old argument in the flight sim community, sometimes the sim needs to make things "easier" in order to more accurately provide a simulation of the experience of actually flying/driving the machine, due to limitations of the interface (screen, controls, etc))

Yes you can change some of the items you have mentioned without refiting suspension components, but the range of adjustment you can carry out in these areas with standard components is very limited.

To obtain the full range of control over suspension tuning in the real world you do have to fit racing spec components.

And for more reasons that just full control over adjustments, racing suspension units are much better manufactured, more durable, lighter and stronger.

You are right about real life to a point, but the range of adjustments you have with stock components on most road cars is very limited, to obtain any decent level of control you have to have racing spec equipment.

Dampers are a great example of this, most road car dampers are, to be very blunt, crap. Aside from not being adjustable, most are poorly and cheaply manufactured and will not last long under the extremes of operation a track throws at components.

Coil overs are cheap. I can get a set of 4 for my car for less than $500. That will come with a spring rate of my choice. If I wanted extra springs, it would cost more. But that assumes I'd be fiddling with it. Likewise, lowering springs are cheap and easily obtainable. Since it's a street car, and I am not a full time racer, I would find a ride height and spring rate that I liked best and keep it. Which is what I've done with the GT4 Cobra as well.

Same goes for sway bars.

For shocks, Konis are VERY good. They are used on many hard core SCCA and ORR competition cars. They are single or double adjustable, and they are made for 1 thing - to go fast. And they aren't that expensive.

I'm not saying that Schumacher has the same thing on his F1 car, just that they are used in racing, very fast racing (ORR - like the Silver State Classic) and are not like typical road car dampers.

I am planning a set of Konis, rod ended panhard bar, perhaps lighter stronger rod ended control arms, new springs and stance, new sway bars, and new wheels and tires. All told, not coundint wheels and tires, it'll cost me less than 2 grand. I wouldn't call that a "race only suspension", in the GT4 sense. Yet, to get that level of choice in GT4, that's what we must buy. We just happen to get the ability to constantly change it.

And then again, I can stuff wider rubber under my car too, and on lighter wheels. Not something I can do in GT4. But I digress....




My point in comparing it to modern cars is simply to show that a car from the early 60s has performance that is actually still considered good today. And that in itself speaks volumes about the car. Putting it in perspective of it's time just makes it even more amazing.

Of course, modern cars have some advantages in materials, which were not available in the 60s. Who says you can't put modern rubber on it? Or rod ends in place of bushings? Or a set of coil overs? Or use some modern knowledge to set up spring rates, ride height, sway bars, etc? What about putting a carbon hood on it? The Z06, has the advantage of an all aluminum engine that weighs less than 500lbs fully dressed. It's also fuel injected and computer controlled. Give one of those to the Cobra...

See what I mean?

Most of those are expendables anyway - springs and shocks wear out, tires go bad, etc. They ultimately will have to be modernized if hte car is to keep racing. That will make it even better than it was.

 

[jbaxta]

hello i need to learn how to drift please teach me

 

[jbaxta]

hello i need to learn how to drift please teach me

 

[niky]

Not in this thread, we won't. There is a drifting section here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141

@GotTorque: Ahhhh... wider rubber. How I wish that would get into GT5.

But you have to consider it this way... you get dozens of different springs and sway bars, race spec dampers, camber plates, etcetera, for that 17k. Sure, it isn't as realistic as going down to the store and buying each part separately, but it makes tuning a whole lot easier.

 

[Scaff]

Neat info. I only looked at hte '06 results for now, but that shows that I'm talking about. 11 cars, of which the C6 Z06 is the last. That's somewhat rarified air. Even more so when breaking down the types - 1 is a motorcycle, 1 is a grand prix car, 1 is a WRC car, and at least 1 more looks to be a race car (not familiar with the Brooke Double R).

If we count all those, that's 7 street cars. Of which, at leas 1, the Atom, is a grand prix car for the street and not really a street car.

There are a lot more than 7 sports cars in the 2006 model year.

The Atom, Caterhams, Radicals (from other years) and the Brooke are all road legal and no more extreme a road car than the Cobra was in its day, try and discount anyof them and you have to discount the Cobra itself.

Additionally Autocar can't physically test every single car on the market, its a chosen sample each year, however that gets away from your point which was that any car that could beat the Cobra today would have to be a hyper expensive supercar. A point that is wrong, The Brooke alone is £32k (the Caterham and Atom are both under £35k), certainly not supercar money and it hammers the Cobra into the ground in terms on 0-100-0.

As for the Atom and Radical. I'm not real up on the Radical, but the Atom I seriously doubt would be street legal in the US. Perhaps if you tried to tag it as a kit car of some kind, ya might find a loop hole, but just buying it straight from Aerial, I don't really see happening. On top of that, it's got no windshield, and no body work.

A road legal Atom lives in LA, its been the subject of a number of magazine pieces.

On top of that the car is totally road legal throuhout Europe, who cares if its got no windshield (the Cobra's one was hardly effective) and who needs bodywork, picking holes here a bit arn't we?

I would argue that it is a good deal more specialized than the Cobra, which, was a street legal road car that met all the requirements of it's day, and as a result, is still legal today.

Why pick on the Atom, its road legal end of story, it mets all the requirments of today. A totally irellevent and pointless comment to make.

True, but it's a roadster. Who drives a roadster in the rain? (besides the crazy brits lol)

When I think of a car being pushed hard, to me that dictates dry conditions. No matter how many times I see Hammond, Clarkson and the Stig racing in a downpour, I will never do anything more than the speed limit if it's raining. (or snowing) (especially in my toy, should I be caught out in the rain, with 332 rear wheel lb ft of tq, that's not something I really want to push in slippery conditions)

Yes but we are talking racing here, and with the exception of NASCAR it doesn't stop for the rain.

You made a statement that the Cobra would beat 95% of modern cars, period. I mearly pointed out that in the dry that may be the case, you can't now go and say that rain doesn't count. It does rain rather often at LeMans you know, the example you gave.

That said, there is no denying that an STi, or Evo, or even Delta Integrale would mop the floor with a Cobra in slippery conditions.

My point exactly

I disagree. To a point.

While it may be true that GT4 is missing off the line torque steer (and thus the donut issue), while moving at high speed, it's a different matter. Somewhere I read about a racer who offered opinions on GT4 and Enthusia and said that the former was better at high speed physics and the latter at slow speed physics. Given that racing is all about high speed.....

Its still a serious flaw in the GT4 engine, coming into play at low speed corners (you know hairpins), racing is not all about high speed corners (again aprt from NASCAR).

I don't know about any racers comments, but I can tell you that I have made that comment regarding the two games in numerous threads here.

Coil overs are cheap. I can get a set of 4 for my car for less than $500. That will come with a spring rate of my choice. If I wanted extra springs, it would cost more. But that assumes I'd be fiddling with it. Likewise, lowering springs are cheap and easily obtainable. Since it's a street car, and I am not a full time racer, I would find a ride height and spring rate that I liked best and keep it. Which is what I've done with the GT4 Cobra as well.

Same goes for sway bars.

For shocks, Konis are VERY good. They are used on many hard core SCCA and ORR competition cars. They are single or double adjustable, and they are made for 1 thing - to go fast. And they aren't that expensive.

I'm not saying that Schumacher has the same thing on his F1 car, just that they are used in racing, very fast racing (ORR - like the Silver State Classic) and are not like typical road car dampers.

I am planning a set of Konis, rod ended panhard bar, perhaps lighter stronger rod ended control arms, new springs and stance, new sway bars, and new wheels and tires. All told, not coundint wheels and tires, it'll cost me less than 2 grand. I wouldn't call that a "race only suspension", in the GT4 sense. Yet, to get that level of choice in GT4, that's what we must buy. We just happen to get the ability to constantly change it.

And then again, I can stuff wider rubber under my car too, and on lighter wheels. Not something I can do in GT4. But I digress....

Im sorry but the items you are talking about buying, while fine are a long way short of being able to offer you the kind of levels of adjustment you are talking about, that degree of tuning freedom has a price in the real world and its not cheap.

You original point was that GT4's race suspension is false because you could do all of that without buying any race componants, and to get the range of adjustments that is just rubbish.

Good fully adjustable damper units of a race spec are not cheap, even a basic set of Konis will retail for a good £1k and thats without fitting or set-up.

The type of adjustment and units you are talking about are more like the sports or semi-racing setup in GT4.

Now don't get me wrong the fact that you can't adjust things like anti-roll bars and tyre pressure get me going to, but to cliam that race-suspension is bogus is more than a bit daft.

In fact I would go so far as to say that given the range of adjustment it offers its cheap.


Regards

Scaff

 

[GotTorque]

You miss the point about "race suspension". I clearly stated that infinite adjustatability is irrelevant.

See... the person who kicked this off said the car can't turn or stop. I stated that it not only can both turn _and_ stop, but that with some tuning it is simply amazing. Here's where it seems to have caused some confusion - in order to head off the "yeah, if you put a racing suspension on it"-type of comments, I pointed out that adding carefully chosen sway bars, or changing the ride height and spring rate, or changing the shocks is NOT "race only" stuff. You have to purchase the "racing suspension" in GT4 in order to simply get that level of customization (including alignment).

The point is not the option to change the settings before each race. I stated that I do not. I simply tweaked it to where a sports car should be for me personally, and that is that. Just like I would do on a real road car, and will do to my car.

That is not a "race only suspension".

See?


I was not aware that an Atom was tagged in the states. I knew it was legal in the UK, but in the US is surprising. However, it is not picking holes, as you put it, to point out that the Atom is just a frame and an engine. The Cobra had a full body and a windshield. It made far more of an attempt to be a road car. And it is also something you could concievably drive in rough conditions as well, since there is a top. (granted, it is not easy to put on, but you can enclose the cabin)

And that sets the Cobra apart. It's more in line with the Veyron, Gallardo, and Z06 than with the Atoms.

Ok, so I exaggerated a bit and there are more cars that can match it than I indicated. But, even if you count these thinly veiled race cars with license plates, given the sheer amount of time that has passed, the point still stands as a valid one - not many can match or exceed it's abilities (given just how many cars have come out since then). And those are #s posted when it was new. Take that same car, and put it on modern tires, with carbon ceramic discs and Hawk pads, with braded or hard lines everywhere and 6 piston calipers. Put a carbon hood on it. Put it on modern springs, bushings and shocks. Give it a carbon drive shaft. Use computerized, road pressure balancing on the wheels. Give it a T-56 (tranny in the 'Vette, F-Body, and some Vipers). Swap an aluminum block in place of the iron one, even if it's just the same thing in aluminum. Put aluminum heads on it. Fuel inject it. Give it a modern diff.

In short, keep the design, just use all the tricks that the new cars have, see what happens. You'd end up with a sorted suspension, more grip, more braking, better balance, less weight, more power, and more gears, and it would be all around smoother (better balanced rotating assemblies).

You're not changing the design, and in some of those cases, such changes would actually be necessary (as finding the crappy original style parts can be difficult).


So in the end, you're the one picking a nit. We are arguing even though we agree - the point is that the Cobra is far from overrated.

 

[Scaff]

So in the end, you're the one picking a nit. We are arguing even though we agree - the point is that the Cobra is far from overrated.

My main points I disagree with you on are the status of the Atom, but that one is irelevent as the Caterham still mets all your criteria and beats the Cobra, and has beaten modern interpretations of the Cobra (2003 results Thunder Road RAM SC - 12.48 secs stil a damn good time).

The other one was in how you phrased and then described the race suspension, which I agree does sound as if we are talking at cross purposes here.

I would agree that for its age the Cobra is far from overrated, but go careful as you're almost in danger of overrating it now.



Scaff

BTW - To say that the Cobra was not a race car for the road is a laugh, the line may (was) a bit mor eblurred back then, but these cars were sold off the back of race wins and a large amount of the target market was the Gentleman racer.

 

[SavageEvil]

Lol, hey we all can disagree, one man's trash is another mans gold. That said, I find the Cobra, to be fun, but ultimately it's pretty much trash, lol. Handles like it's riding on bacon fat, it's a nifty lil car though.

 

[GotTorque]

Lol, hey we all can disagree, one man's trash is another mans gold. That said, I find the Cobra, to be fun, but ultimately it's pretty much trash, lol. Handles like it's riding on bacon fat, it's a nifty lil car though.

Certainly we can disagree. And when someone says "I don't like (a particular) car", there's really no way to dispute that anymore than saying I don't like brown.

However..... this is a different matter.

When you say it handles like it's riding on bacon fat, what are the conditions? What track are you referring to? What sort of mods? What tires? What controls are you using?

These are all important. I can assure you, it's not the car.

Here's why I say that - in another thread, someone was comparing the stock 04 NSX to the stock 02 STi. He chose Tsukuba for his track. I had to learn the track, but I got used to it pretty quickly. The thread starter managed a time in the 1:05s. I managed to get 1:03.849 in the NSX, bone stock, same tires. Please don't mistake that, I am not making comments on anyone else's ability. Simply trying to indicate that I am competent when it comes to driving in this game, and also show the best time I could manage with a car that few would say was crap. Hell, I really dislike hondas, and even I have to acknowledge the balance and ability of that car.

Now, that said. I took my Cobra, and went to Set B, which set everything to stock. (there is no weight redux, and no permanent engine mods either)

I took it to Tsukuba to see what's what. To be totally honest, I did not recall the stock handling of the car since I've been running a tuned suspension for so long.

My first lap I ran a 1:03. Then I ran a 1:02, then I messed up a bit by braking too late for turn 1 and had a slight off on turn 2. I still ran a 1:03. On lap for, I got across the line in 1:00.864

If it was on N3s, it would have been very scary indeed. (also Scaff, give that a try, if you aren't very careful, you'll spin. The power and savagery is there. Go over 20mph and you really have to respect that beast)

On S2s, it had good braking, but could lock them up easily, so turning under extreme braking didn't work very well. It just created understeer. But, if you didn't lock the brakes, it stopped very quickly.

The power is brutal, and this leads to problem number 2 - perception. It feels like it has bad understeer. It doesn't. The problem is you go from zero to mach 2 in a heart beat, so you are going so fast on corner entry that you end up scrubbing. Any car will do that if going fast enough. Few cars *can* go fast enough from turn to turn like this car. Couple that with the fact that this makes you stand on the brakes and you compound the issue.

If you then get hard on the gas, that same power will make the car try to bite you. Or as Jeremy Clarkson once descrived the Ferrari 360 - "it becomes a small dog - spinning around your legs and wagging it's tail".

But.... if you ride that ragged edge, you get the rewards. Killer lap times, and often end up looking like Rhys Millen. lol

I've said it before, the Cobra is the epitomy of slow in, fast out. Drive it slow and careful enough, and you will find it has great cornering abilities.

I should mention that around the last turn, I not only was going fast than any other car I've tested on that track so far, but by briefly standing on the brakes and turning, I would flick the car into a slide, let off the brakes and gently power out of it. I was able to do between 75 and 80 mph around that corner. The C4 Grand Sport and NSX were doing those kinds of speeds through that corner (on the same tires).

Surely a car that can hang on in a turn as well as a C4 Grand Sport and/or 04 NSX can't be described as "riding on bacon fat".

Depending on the track, the mods, and the driving technique you are using, I'm sure I could help you get much more out of it.

EDIT -

Just for kicks I took it to it's old stomping grounds, Laguna Seca (for me that is, been tuning that car there ever since GT3).

Still in it's Set B, totally stock/default state (sans driver aids - I pretty much never use them). A quick check of the records board showed an Elise at #10 with a time in the mid 1:34s. Fairly impressive actually. Not too many cars get there, and none without mods. That Elise BTW, has 324 hp, the max I think. It also has S3 tires.

I thought there was no need to worry about reaching that sort of time, so I felt no need to find anything to delete (so as to save the times I cared about). I ran about 4 laps. The first one was about 1:36. Impressive in it's own right. But my last 2 laps were both in the 1:33s. First was .99x and the last was 1:33.336.

I know 1:32 is in that car. The last 90 degree turn was killing me, and on that last lap, I saw at least 2 places that I let it get a little too wild and slowed myself down.

FWIW, that puts it above a fairly modded 04 GTO, and .789 seconds away from a stock Ford GT. (which I find to be something of a wonder car with retro rockets for brakes)

Also, the Elise is 806 kilos, to the Cobra's 1068kg. Power to weight is *slightly* in the Cobra's favor (.8 lbs per hp better), but the Elise is 260 kilos lighter. That's about 572 lbs. Plus it has better balance.

(of course, it has to be said, driving the Elise would not wear you out. Driving the Cobra would. Severely. Not to mention fry your nerves from fear, knowing how close you are to the edge at any given instant. lol)

 

[Metar]

Anyone whos driven a Skyline GTR in real life will tell you they aren't overrated at all, especially when you slap in a bigger turbo, the way the engine revs up is better then sex itself.

Sexual preferences don't make cars over/underrated, you know...

 

[SavageEvil]

It's the car, because you have to adapt to the cars strengths and weaknesses, if it wasn't the car anyone would be able to drive it comfortably. You can't drive an NSX, like you would an STI, and no STI is beating an NSX on any course(excludes rally/offroad). When I say bacon fat, I mean bone stock, that car is very piggish on the road. It's got too much power and weighs very little. You have to learn the car because it's not a pick up and drive vehicle. The Elise 111R, fully tuned is just as wily as the Cobra, it's drivetrain layout makes it's oversteer/understeer balance tricky, but it's one very fun car to drive. I can get good times with the Cobra, but it's the amount of things I have to contend with while driving the thing that makes it not something I like. The Series 1, now that is how a Shelby should be...mod the Series 1 to match the Cobra and watch what happens to that lil 427. I tend to drive everything on N2's and N3's depending on power output.

 

[nyg_shockey]

the ford gt's. every one is hyped up over 550 hp yet the brakes suck and there is lots of under steer... actually anything by ford is over rated

 

[RICHARDO]

the ford gt's. every one is hyped up over 550 hp yet the brakes suck and there is lots of under steer... actually anything by ford is over rated

Get the Shell RS200 NOW!

 

[Dude?]

the ford gt's. every one is hyped up over 550 hp yet the brakes suck and there is lots of under steer... actually anything by ford is over rated

So then I guess you're saying the Model T is overrated? I would doubt that. I personally don't consider anything by Ford overrated, well perhaps the Ford GT and all it's Mustangs (which aren't half bad IMO). I still find the GT to be an excellent car regardless.

 

[niky]

the ford gt's. every one is hyped up over 550 hp yet the brakes suck and there is lots of under steer... actually anything by ford is over rated

Hmmm.... RS200 (mentioned): One of the baddest rally cars ever...

Ford GT: "hey, it doesn't stick like a racecar..." ...it doesn't have a wing, sonny... and yes, it's nice and fast.

Ford SVT Cobra: Can you say, Sayonara, mister Skyline? Oh, okay, the Skyline's still faster on a handling course, but by something like 0.1 seconds per minute.

Ford Focus: fastest FF car in the game?

Yup. They're all over-rated.

No generalizations, please. Just one car, and one valid reason...

 

[RICHARDO]

OK, The TVR Griffith 500, it has suspension as soft as a Lincoln Continental, very heavy steering like a Lincoln Continental, plows and slides like a Lincoln Continental, it's basically a two-door British Lincoln. Now I don't hate it per-se, but it sure takes a long time to warm up to it. Actually, it's not a Lincoln, it's a Cobra.

 

[Scaff]

Hmmm.... RS200 (mentioned): One of the baddest rally cars ever...

Ford GT: "hey, it doesn't stick like a racecar..." ...it doesn't have a wing, sonny... and yes, it's nice and fast.

Ford SVT Cobra: Can you say, Sayonara, mister Skyline? Oh, okay, the Skyline's still faster on a handling course, but by something like 0.1 seconds per minute.

Ford Focus: fastest FF car in the game?

Yup. They're all over-rated.

No generalizations, please. Just one car, and one valid reason...

Yep anyone complaining about the brakes on the GT is simply not aware of how fast they are going.

As can be seen here the GT's brakes have nothing wrong with them at all.

Ta

Scaff

 

[RICHARDO]

Now, as for the Yellowbird, that's a different story...

 

[Scaff]

Now, as for the Yellowbird, that's a different story...

Never had a problem with the Yellowbird myself (well on the brakes - it is a tricky bugger to get used to), but I'm sure I do have a set of 0-100-0 figures for one. Have to give it a go when I get a chance.

👍

Scaff

 

[RICHARDO]

I think you misunderstood me Scaff , the Yellowbird is a excellent car in every catergory, except when you want to stop. Problably this and the BTR are the only cars in GT4 that you can truly say have bad brakes. Even a 70' Charger has more adequate brakes!

 

[Metar]

The GT, might be overrated, and it might be underrated. But it certainly deserves a high rating. It's beautifull, quick, grippy, and has this wonderfull engine. Plus, it beats the Supercar Festival with ease... I'd even say, that with the amounts of complaints, it is almost underrated.

 

[Master_Yoda]

The GT, might be overrated, and it might be underrated. But it certainly deserves a high rating. It's beautifull, quick, grippy, and has this wonderfull engine. Plus, it beats the Supercar Festival with ease... I'd even say, that with the amounts of complaints, it is almost underrated.

My Accord beats the super festival with ease...