The Old Vs. The New

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I don't consider that a major replacement.

You're a mechanic. Most people can't just roll up their sleeves and do a major mechanical overhaul in their back yard in an afternoon.
 
New things come out and people get bored of what they have. It's that simple. Drive a car for 30 years and tell me you don't want something else after that long.
So the cars that people sell just disappear? When you sell a car, someone else buys it. If these cars were as dependable as you claim, then they'd have had four or five owners by now and would be seen every day on the streets. However, cars of the 70's are a rare sight, becasue most of them rusted away or broke.

I don't own one of those vehicles so I can't comment on them.
I'll give you an admittedly weak example, but it's the best one that I can give from my personal experience. My parents' 2010 Honda Fit has 19,000 miles on it. Nothing has gone wrong. Not one single thing has needed to be serviced, replaced, tightened, loosened, or otherwise repaired. It's had two oil changes and a tyre rotation, and it's otherwise the same as when we bought it new.


Slashfan
That said I've worked on a lot of new stuff and I just do not like them for many reasons. They blow to work on, you can't get to hardly anything that you need to replace, the electrical and computer systems are a nightmare, especially when having to reset things by driving 100 miles or having the computer mess up because a tire pressure sensor in one tire got stuck in the wrong wheel well. I find the old ones more visually appealing, easier to work on, and I think they are just better overall (excluding safety features). I understand that the new stuff is supposed to aid the driver and provide more convenience but when something goes it is a royal pain in the ass to do anything with them. Seriously, who ever though of mounting an alternator down on the bottom side of a side mounted engine way back next to the firewall with about 1 inch to get your hand halfway down in there and cant even fit a socket on a bolt to pulling the mounting bracket off? Much easier up front on a length wise mounted engine...
Just because a car is hard to work on does not make it unreliable. New cars have all sorts of fiddly electronics, yes, but in the end those electronics help keep the car running as well as it can, so it is faster, gets better fuel mileage, and is more reliable.The other thing is that a large, empty engien bay is insanely wasteful. you could save a lot of weight by making the front of the car smaller and packaging everything well, thus improving fuel economy, speed, and handling. The cars you talk of were very poor from an engineer's standpoint, given that they were poorly packaged and inefficient.
 
New things come out and people get bored of what they have. It's that simple. Drive a car for 30 years and tell me you don't want something else after that long.

No, the old cars that weren't meticulously maintained fell apart. That is why you see so few of them.

I don't consider that a major replacement.

But 99.99% of consumers do, including myself, and I'm an engineer!
 
Because those are any better (I feel a hate train coming :lol:). Want to buy me one? I'll gladly do a comparison. :sly:

My dad's car is easily compared to the original 1974 Volkswagen Golf, because for all intents and purposes it is a 1974 Golf. The car that basically destroyed the auto industry as it had been up to that point, especially in America. And it's a convertible too, which means less in the way of chassis stiffness and the like.


It's just as solidly built as anything I've been in that was made the past 5 years. There was serious thought put into designing that car. I can't say the same for the 1990 Cavalier Z28 that he used to own, as much fun as it was and as nice as it was to look at; and in theory that car and his current car were direct competitors. And I've been in more than one Chevette, and that certainly wasn't remotely as well done. There were solidly built, thoughtfully designed cars from that time period that weren't carryovers from the end of the 60s that tons of effort was put into making right. The Fairmont was a big one, and so was the downsized Caprice. Even the original Seville had tons of effort put into it. But those 3 models did not make up the entirety of Detroit's output in that decade; nevermind the even more disastrous following ten years.
 
You're a mechanic. Most people can't just roll up their sleeves and do a major mechanical overhaul in their back yard in an afternoon.

That I can agree with though. You are right there.

So the cars that people sell just disappear? When you sell a car, someone else buys it. If these cars were as dependable as you claim, then they'd have had four or five owners by now and would be seen every day on the streets. However, cars of the 70's are a rare sight, becasue most of them rusted away or broke.


I'll give you an admittedly weak example, but it's the best one that I can give from my personal experience. My parents' 2010 Honda Fit has 19,000 miles on it. Nothing has gone wrong. Not one single thing has needed to be serviced, replaced, tightened, loosened, or otherwise repaired. It's had two oil changes and a tyre rotation, and it's otherwise the same as when we bought it new.

Trade -ins, scrap yard, sold to others then scrapped. Things happen. Most of those cars did have 4-5 owners :lol:

New cars will rust just as easily as the old ones. Nothings really changed there.


That Focus I told you about had 50,000 put on it in the first 2 years we had it and it's inching towards 120,000 now. No real problems with it despite hitting a racoon and general maintenance like brakes/tires etc. That said, my 1999 Dodge Caravan is on it's way out. 185,000 on it, rust everywhere, the hatch door handle is totally shot, so much that the hatch is held down by a rope. There is a large hole into the body next to the pinch weld on the drivers side and the sliding door is extremely hard to open. The thing stalls out all the time, brakes hang up (admittedly from sitting), and generally runs like poop. The motor is the 3.3L Non-Flex fuel.

No, the old cars that weren't meticulously maintained fell apart. That is why you see so few of them.



But 99.99% of consumers do, including myself, and I'm an engineer!
Not always true. Why do some survive that weren't maintained that well? That weren't garaged or babied? I see a lot of old cars that were never restored around here. Not hard to believe. I do agree that a lot of them fell to that fate at some point in it's life, but there was a significant number that hasn't or didn't.

I can agree with you there about the driveshaft though, a lot of people do consider that a large replacement :lol: But it's not exactly a hard fix, and anyone that can understand how to remove a few bolts and look at a few pictures or even get walked through on the phone I'm sure could borrow a family members tools and fix it themselves.
My dad's car is easily compared to the original 1974 Volkswagen Golf, because for all intents and purposes it is a 1974 Golf. The car that basically destroyed the auto industry as it had been up to that point, especially in America. And it's a convertible too, which means less in the way of chassis stiffness and the like.


It's just as solidly built as anything I've been in that was made the past 5 years. There was serious thought put into designing that car. I can't say the same for the 1990 Cavalier Z28 that he used to own, as much fun as it was and as nice as it was to look at; and in theory that car and his current car were direct competitors. There were solidly built, thoughtfully designed cars from that time period that weren't carryovers from the end of the 60s that tons of effort was put into making right. The Fairmont was a big one, and so was the downsized Caprice. Even the original Seville had tons of effort put into it. But those 3 models did not make up the entirety of Detroits output in that decade; nevermind the even more disastrous following ten years.

I agree with you. A lot of the older stuff was solid, and there was a lot of stuff that wasn't. Simple as that. Really depends on what you bought.
 
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:lol: New cars rust just as easily? That's a good one, you should put that in the jokes thread.
 
Errr.... No.

In fact, not sure if srs.

Why is my van rotted to hell, and it was taken care of? Washed regularly, always cared for, well maintained...yet runs like utter trash and is rusty?

Why do I see a growing number of newer cars on the road starting to rot out? They rust just as easily as the old ones do. I see no improvements despite what you might read or hear about. My grandfathers 2000 or so Dodge ram had bubbles all over it before he traded it in for his 2011 (he bought that brand new). And if anyone I know cares for their vehicles stupidly well, it's him.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/152-venza-forum/386122-rust-brand-new-car.html

^^I know it's a forum, don't go there with me :lol:

http://www.change.org/petitions/should-a-new-car-have-rust-in-1000-miles

:lol: New cars rust just as easily? That's a good one, you should put that in the jokes thread.

Right...

Just because a car is hard to work on does not make it unreliable. New cars have all sorts of fiddly electronics, yes, but in the end those electronics help keep the car running as well as it can, so it is faster, gets better fuel mileage, and is more reliable.The other thing is that a large, empty engien bay is insanely wasteful. you could save a lot of weight by making the front of the car smaller and packaging everything well, thus improving fuel economy, speed, and handling. The cars you talk of were very poor from an engineer's standpoint, given that they were poorly packaged and inefficient.

I never said that because a car is tough to work on makes it unreliable. I'm saying that when something goes, it sucks fixing it. Have you even tried to work on those newer cars? The more room in the older ones is a very generous gift and makes my life easier to do simple stuff like even changing spark plugs. The new compact stuff is absolutely terrible to try and do anything to, regardless of what it is. Have you seen the location of some of the oil filters on these newer engines? How the hell do you get them out without burning yourself on the exhaust manifold?
 
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Why is my van rotted to hell, and it was taken care of? Washed regularly, always cared for, well maintained...yet runs like utter trash and is rusty?

Why do I see a growing number of newer cars on the road starting to rot out? They rust just as easily as the old ones do. I see no improvements despite what you might read or hear about. My grandfathers 2000 or so Dodge ram had bubbles all over it before he traded it in for his 2011 (he bought that brand new). And if anyone I know cares for their vehicles stupidly well, it's him.

Could be down to many things, including paint issues from the factory, and a general lack of maintenance. Some models from certain manufacturers are prone to rust because of poor levels of quality, but they are in the minority.


The first is due to paint issues from the factory, and the second is surface rust which is normal and nothing to really be concerned about. If it has genuinely rusted that quickly, either the owner isn't telling the whole truth or the finish on the parts is not of a great quality.

Overall, modern cars are very resistant to rust, which is obvious if you know the first thing about advances in metallurgy.
 
Could be down to many things, including paint issues from the factory, and a general lack of maintenance. Some models from certain manufacturers are prone to rust because of poor levels of quality, but they are in the minority.



The first is due to paint issues from the factory, and the second is surface rust which is normal and nothing to really be concerned about. If it has genuinely rusted that quickly, either the owner isn't telling the whole truth or the finish on the parts is not of a great quality.

Overall, modern cars are very resistant to rust, which is obvious if you know the first thing about advances in metallurgy.

It was always very well cared for. Maybe you are right, could be a bad example but there is a lot of them out now that are pretty far gone.

I will admit I'm not very educated on that subject so maybe I am wrong but at least from my eyes I see a lot of cars out that are pretty fairly rusted.
 
It was always very well cared for. Maybe you are right, could be a bad example but there is a lot of them out now that are pretty far gone.

I will admit I'm not very educated on that subject so maybe I am wrong but at least from my eyes I see a lot of cars out that are pretty fairly rusted.

A 13 year old vehicle is pretty old, and things have come a long, long way since then. These days you can let a car sit outside without any cover in all winds and weathers and it still looks new after years and years of neglect. The same can't be said for older vehicles.

I never said that because a car is tough to work on makes it unreliable. I'm saying that when something goes, it sucks fixing it. Have you even tried to work on those newer cars? The more room in the older ones is a very generous gift and makes my life easier to do simple stuff like even changing spark plugs. The new compact stuff is absolutely terrible to try and do anything to, regardless of what it is. Have you seen the location of some of the oil filters on these newer engines? How the hell do you get them out without burning yourself on the exhaust manifold?

You're missing the point a little here. Modern cars are designed to be maintained by trained mechanics and other specialists in dealer workshops kitted out with every tool you could ever need, not by the car owner or a small, independent garage. Whether new cars are a pain in the ass for a mechanic to work on doesn't come into the equation because it's customer needs first (compact, aesthetically pleasing, reliable, etc.) and ease of maintenance comes somewhere at the bottom of the list.
 
Do you know what crash tests are and have seen them?

Yes. I acknowledged earlier that modern cars are indeed safer due to advancements in technology. That is not what the discussion is about right now.

A 13 year old vehicle is pretty old, and things have come a long, long way since then. These days you can let a car sit outside without any cover in all winds and weathers and it still looks new after years and years of neglect. The same can't be said for older vehicles.

True I guess, but to me anyways, I consider a 13 year old vehicle rather new. Then again the new to us 2003 Escape XLT has problems of it's own as well. 97,000 miles on it and just ate a ball join and front driveshaft as well as the starter solenoid. Not to mention the volume on the radio goes all the way up whenever it wants to.

You're missing the point a little here. Modern cars are designed to be maintained by trained mechanics and other specialists in dealer workshops kitted out with every tool you could ever need, not by the car owner or a small, independent garage. Whether new cars are a pain in the ass for a mechanic to work on doesn't come into the equation because it's customer needs first (compact, aesthetically pleasing, reliable, etc.) and ease of maintenance comes somewhere at the bottom of the list.

While that is true, those trained mechanics still have a tough time with them, and do it because they need to make money for a living somehow, not because they particularly enjoy doing it (which sometimes, isn't the case). My old auto tech teacher worked at a Ford dealership for 15 some years, and he hated working on the newer stuff, because it was tougher than years past. And yes, the customers needs do come first, you have to take into consideration what the guys that actually do the work on your car go through when something goes wrong. I've seen some pretty questionable things come out of the factory (as far as odd locations of things etc). Guess it's more personal for me, but that's how I see it.
 
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I agree with you. A lot of the older stuff was solid, and there was a lot of stuff that wasn't. Simple as that. Really depends on what you bought.

For every straightforward Fairmont, there were four "Broughams" adding a few hundred pounds, a vinyl roof and the interior of a brothel to 10 year old cars with emissions strangled engines. For every nicely engineered Caprice, there were three Vegas that grenaded on the side of the road. For every Seville, there were two Versailles. The 1970s were when the pendulum was as far as ever was towards the cars being awful, and most of the time it was because they just didn't care to make them any better.
 
Yes. I acknowledged earlier that modern cars are indeed safer due to advancements in technology. That is not what the discussion is about right now.

I was responding to the other fellow. The one above that post.
 
Slashfan
Why is my van rotted to hell, and it was taken care of? Washed regularly, always cared for, well maintained...yet runs like utter trash and is rusty?

Why do I see a growing number of newer cars on the road starting to rot out? They rust just as easily as the old ones do. I see no improvements despite what you might read or hear about. My grandfathers 2000 or so Dodge ram had bubbles all over it before he traded it in for his 2011 (he bought that brand new). And if anyone I know cares for their vehicles stupidly well, it's him.

Well for one, it's a late 90's-early 2000's Dodge Caravan. We've had two and they are absolute heaps of garbage.

If we want to trade anecdotes, why has my 2003 Corolla been daily driven for 10 years by my mom and I with next to no problems? It isn't rusting out despite being outside 365 days a year and throughout the Winter.
 
Those crash tests on youtube aren't even accurate.

I'm so glad that you've arrived to put all of the automotive safety experts in their places. How silly they've been to design vehicles that crumple in a way that dissipates energy in a crash, when they should have been making solid metal boxes that transfer all the energy to their soft, squishy occupants.

I bet they feel a bit silly now!
 
I was responding to the other fellow. The one above that post.
Oh sorry :dopey:
For every straightforward Fairmont, there were four "Broughams" adding a few hundred pounds, a vinyl roof and the interior of a brothel to 10 year old cars with emissions strangled engines. For every nicely engineered Caprice, there were three Vegas that grenaded on the side of the road. For every Seville, there were two Versailles. The 1970s were when the pendulum was as far as ever was towards the cars being awful, and most of the time it was because they just didn't care to make them any better.
They may not have cared to make them any better but that doesn't mean the quality of the stock mechanical parts they used were particularly bad. That's what this discussion is about, isn't it?
Because they're totally not made by the manufacturers themselves or anything.
You'd be surprised what an unknown company will do for publicity...or even other car brands rigging other cars to make their own look better.
Well for one, it's a late 90's-early 2000's Dodge Caravan. We've had two and they are absolute heaps of garbage.

If we want to.trad
I agree it's trash, but it's a car I got for free, and free is good, so I'm not complaining :lol:

Those crash tests on youtube aren't even accurate.
Depends. See above.
I'm so glad that you've arrived to put all of the automotive safety experts in their places. How silly they've been to design vehicles that crumple in a way that dissipates energy in a crash, when they should have been making solid metal boxes that transfer all the energy to their soft, squishy occupants.

I bet they feel a bit silly now!
:lol:

Though, sometimes I wonder, even though in theory and tests these "advancements" if you will, actually work in the field as good as they are supposed to or seem to in or during testing stages.
 
My '02 S10 Blazer hasn't had a single problem. Granted, it's only got 64k on the odometer, but after 11 years, it's first 8 being treated like a literal trash can/beer pickup vehicle, the only part that's needed replaced is the radiator after something punctured one of the lines. It only had 45k when we got the thing 4 years ago. And we once hauled 8-1/2 thousand pounds of concrete in the bed of my dad's '06 F-250 on 10 miles of highway and had no issues. And most of it's 74k miles were highway while hauling a rather large 5th wheel camper. None of the parts have been replaced on it, even with the infamous 6.0 under the hood. My sister's '06 F-350 has had the head gaskets replaced, but that's down to a single component of the engine not being designed well. Other than that it's traveled 130k miles with nothing needing replaced. They've all had their tires replaced, though that's actually a regular thing for any car.

These are just the best examples I can come up with personally. I'm sure if I asked around I'd be able to find better without leaving my neighborhood.


Lol. A manufacturer would be really stupid to give out a test showing that their 50 year old cars are stronger than their new ones.

The issue isn't strength. You don't want raw strength, because it doesn't matter how you spin it, the tree you hit because your car has all the maneuverability of a bus is going to win. If you're car doesn't give in to dissipate the energy, your face will when it hits the steering wheel. Not to mention hitting oncoming cars that are just as strong. The less the car crumples, the more you do.
 
My '02 S10 Blazer hasn't had a single problem. Granted, it's only got 64k on the odometer, but after 11 years, it's first 8 being treated like a literal trash can/beer pickup vehicle, the only part that's needed replaced is the radiator after something punctured one of the lines. It only had 45k when we got the thing 4 years ago. And we once hauled 8-1/2 thousand pounds of concrete in the bed of my dad's '06 F-250 on 10 miles of highway and had no issues. And most of it's 74k miles were highway while hauling a rather large 5th wheel camper. None of the parts have been replaced on it, even with the infamous 6.0 under the hood. My sister's '06 F-350 has had the head gaskets replaced, but that's down to a single component of the engine not being designed well. Other than that it's traveled 130k miles with nothing needing replaced. They've all had their tires replaced, though that's actually a regular thing for any car.

These are just the best examples I can come up with personally. I'm sure if I asked around I'd be able to find better without leaving my neighborhood.

My truck has 665,000 miles on it with no real issues. You can argue with all the mods I've done etc may contribute but nothing ever failed and anything that was replaced was replaced because we wanted to upgrade it, not because anything was wrong.




This isn't mine but this is similar. 1985 F-250 grossing 37,000lbs at 53mph with a naturally aspirated 6.9L diesel that makes less power than that '06 F-250 with a gasser. Lets see your truck do that without something breaking.
 
Slashfan
You'd be surprised what an unknown company will do for publicity...or even other car brands rigging other cars to make their own look better.

I'll shoot. Proof? Out of curiosity.
 
1985 F-250 grossing 37,000lbs at 53mph with a naturally aspirated 6.9L diesel that makes less power than that '06 F-250 with a gasser. Lets see your truck do that without something breaking.

It's a 6.4, that was a typo. And the hitch ball is connected directly to the frame. The tires will spin before anything breaks. Again, after 8-1/2 thousand pounds in the bed, I'm sure it could tow another truck that has it's wheels planted. Even one that large. Hell, if it's got all 6 wheels on the ground, an F-150 could probably do it.
I can't prove it happens, but I wouldn't doubt it does happen or has happened at some point in automotive history.

Happened at some point? Probably. But it's the kind of thing that can be so easily put to the test by certain agencies that in modern days a company would be outright stupid to try and get away with falsifying crash test data.
 
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It's a 6.4, that was a typo. And the hitch ball is connected directly to the frame. The tires will spin before anything breaks.

I don't think the rear axle in that truck can hold that kind of weight. The engine doesn't have enough balls to spin the tires with 37,000lbs over it, let alone with any "real" weight over it, and if you can get it moving you're going to have a lot of wheel hop. Stock tires or replacements are not rated for that kind of weight. Put that much weight over the rear end of that truck and you will:

A: Break an axle/leaf springs/shocks
B: Rip the hitch off the frame
C: Lift the front end of the truck 20 feet in the air
D: Pop the tires
E: All of the above
 

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