The round-table interview with Yamauchi is perplexing

[trev555]

New sound engine is most likely a GT7 thing. It'd be a strong marketing feature to get all of us to upgrade to PS4s. Especially if there was an obvious and noticeable improvement. It doesn't make any economic sense to do a GT6 engine sound patch - at least not in terms of implementing a completely new system.

 

[Swagger897]

The answer to that is because it's rubberbanding and it allows the AI to adapt to the skills of the player. At the end of the day it's a game, and a business plan where 30% of all players are always losing and 30% are always winning is a bad business plan. The AI needs to be different to different players and rubberbanding is one way of doing that. The problem with it is that it's not perceived as fair play, because in our minds the opponents should to their very best at all times.

And then there's some tweaking issues: Should the AI aim to be right where you're at, aim to be two seconds ahead of you, or aim to be two seconds behind you? Should it change during the course of the race? Should there be a near to scripted story where there's a close fight with the AI in which the player always emerges as the winner?

To compare these issues with a real race is pointless, because in real racing it's simple: let the best man or woman win.

Valid argument as I have come up with a response:

If we are short on memory for the PS3 to handle that is another debate. But what I can summarize from playing GT for the 4 past years, is that it lacks one thing. Defensive driving. Now there is normally that one car in that one race we all do, who is always so far out and we call him the rabbit. He rarely fights his way through the field as normally he is first, but when he is not he fights to get there. Now us humans start way ass in the back. We fight our way to the second place position and sometimes some of us let off to keep up and entertain ourselves at the the rabbit. But when we do get that one good rabbit, he puts his foot down and still drags us out, sometimes making us go for second.

But if we get hasty with things, we normally always want to take risks that we would never actually so in real life. So there is almost a limitation to what PD can put in. Do we keep it as a driving sim, like the name says, or do we change it to a racing sim, like everyone plays it and expects to get from it.

That is what I think should be the next question asked at an interview is "The game subtitle shows "The Real Driving Simulator", yet majority of the players would interpret the game as a racing simulator if asked what type. Do you think that a name change or a change in thought should take place as to how you structure the game? Or does calling it this title give it it's own niche above games such as Forza and Shift, where they are racing games at heart."

That is my question id like to have answered one day...

 

[Swagger897]

I made peace with myself, by accepting the sounds that GT5 and GT6 provide as is. Want better sounds for this game? you won't get what you ask for, there ARE legal reasons from Sony (the dynasty that dictates everything surrounding their IP's), and car manufacturers with OTHER existing publishers, namely Microsoft , EA, and others, where strict NDA and corporate rules dictate what can be brought to the masses.

This is just a tip of the reasons behind the no sounds answered by Kaz, because not even Kaz is at liberty to do whatever he wants within a controlled Domain.

don't like the sounds? make your own game! easier said than done, I know, but you can! and they won't let you have Porsche either!

Im sorry but that has to be the most ridiculous reason I've ever heard of. I know some cars have their own patents on the sound they produce, but that is only a pinch of what we have in GT, even if those cars are in the game..

 

[eSZee]

I made peace with myself, by accepting the sounds that GT5 and GT6 provide as is. Want better sounds for this game? you won't get what you ask for, there ARE legal reasons from Sony (the dynasty that dictates everything surrounding their IP's), and car manufacturers with OTHER existing publishers, namely Microsoft , EA, and others, where strict NDA and corporate rules dictate what can be brought to the masses.

This is just a tip of the reasons behind the no sounds answered by Kaz, because not even Kaz is at liberty to do whatever he wants within a controlled Domain.

don't like the sounds? make your own game! easier said than done, I know, but you can! and they won't let you have Porsche either!

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

Valid argument as I have come up with a response:

If we are short on memory for the PS3 to handle that is another debate. But what I can summarize from playing GT for the 4 past years, is that it lacks one thing. Defensive driving. Now there is normally that one car in that one race we all do, who is always so far out and we call him the rabbit. He rarely fights his way through the field as normally he is first, but when he is not he fights to get there. Now us humans start way ass in the back. We fight our way to the second place position and sometimes some of us let off to keep up and entertain ourselves at the the rabbit. But when we do get that one good rabbit, he puts his foot down and still drags us out, sometimes making us go for second.

But if we get hasty with things, we normally always want to take risks that we would never actually so in real life. So there is almost a limitation to what PD can put in. Do we keep it as a driving sim, like the name says, or do we change it to a racing sim, like everyone plays it and expects to get from it.

That is what I think should be the next question asked at an interview is "The game subtitle shows "The Real Driving Simulator", yet majority of the players would interpret the game as a racing simulator if asked what type. Do you think that a name change or a change in thought should take place as to how you structure the game? Or does calling it this title give it it's own niche above games such as Forza and Shift, where they are racing games at heart."

That is my question id like to have answered one day...

A more direct question is "Why are there not difficulty level options for the AI so that people can play at the level they want to?"

 

[sems4arsenal]

So he did say the sounds will not be coming for GT6?

 

[eran0004]

Valid argument as I have come up with a response:

If we are short on memory for the PS3 to handle that is another debate. But what I can summarize from playing GT for the 4 past years, is that it lacks one thing. Defensive driving. Now there is normally that one car in that one race we all do, who is always so far out and we call him the rabbit. He rarely fights his way through the field as normally he is first, but when he is not he fights to get there. Now us humans start way ass in the back. We fight our way to the second place position and sometimes some of us let off to keep up and entertain ourselves at the the rabbit. But when we do get that one good rabbit, he puts his foot down and still drags us out, sometimes making us go for second.

But if we get hasty with things, we normally always want to take risks that we would never actually so in real life. So there is almost a limitation to what PD can put in. Do we keep it as a driving sim, like the name says, or do we change it to a racing sim, like everyone plays it and expects to get from it.

One problem is that the races in Gran Turismo can't be found in reality. I don't know any racing series that runs high performance street cars, for instance. Most racing series runs racing cars and they all have very clear regulations to keep the car evenly matched. I suppose that in amateur racing it's more commong to "bring what you've got" (like in the Swedish Rally Sprint Championship about a week ago, where Petter Solberg was the only one who brought a WRC car), but in professional racing the cars are always very close in performance. In Gran Turismo, the races brings together a lot of very different cars to compete against each other and common sense says that whoever has the best car is going to be first. The only way a C6 Corvette is going to beat a Ferrari FXX is if the Ferrari has a mechanical failure, and that doesn't happen in the game.

For a realistic racing career mode, they should ditch 90% of the road car competitions and replace them with racing car competitions and make sure the cars that are competing in each class is close in performance. I think that's about the only way to make the races tighter, because no matter how good the AI is, the computer driving a slower car will always fall behind the computer that's driving a faster car.

 

[giorgos21]

Listen to the engine sounds in the menu. The sound really great.

But then something happens to them when you're actually racing.

DON'T WORRY...IS JUST

 

[DRambo]

A more direct question is "Why are there not difficulty level options for the AI so that people can play at the level they want to?"

It already exists to some extent. Most of the PP limits are very high. You can choose very high tyre performance. In the A-spec races, even the least skilled player should be able to win using tuning.

The problem is that it is still too easy. I'm typically running 450 PP where the limit is 600 and using CS tyres against SS, I am am still winning, not always, but you are not racing on a like for like basis against the AI cars.

 

[BrandonW77]

It already exists to some extent. Most of the PP limits are very high. You can choose very high tyre performance. In the A-spec races, even the least skilled player should be able to win using tuning.

The problem is that it is still too easy. I'm typically running 450 PP where the limit is 600 and using CS tyres against SS, I am am still winning, not always, but you are not racing on a like for like basis against the AI cars.

The other problem is the format of the racing. You start from the back and have X laps to get to the front, this is silly and not true motorsport. Racing is battling door to door with your competitor lap after lap to setup a pass, you don't get this in GT because you have to just fly by the other cars as fast as possible. The AI cars are just scenery in multi-lap time trial, not competitors.

 

[TenEightyOne]

PD's answers are very confusing, anyone remember the "you will be able to create your own personalised car" feature when GT6 was announced?

From the answers quoted through this thread its clear that PD want to improve the mechanism for producing the sound. Personally I take that to mean "computing the aural output" from a mathematical baseline at any given frame in the simulation (or computing it using cumulative rendering from wider-spread basepoints). That doesn't necessarily mean re-recording the source samples although some new sample might be required for specific cars.

I quoted Shirrako because I never took PD's "personalised car" statement to mean a livery editor. Maybe it's my Aspergers but to me they said exactly what they meant; as with all editions of GT we'll be able to personalise a car. I didn't expect a chassis designer or livery editor - I think anyone who did was taking the literal meaning of the words and projecting their own hope across them.

 

[JackC8]

I barely bother to read what Kaz has to say any more. Every imaginable feature is being worked on in some way shape or form. Or at least someone's talked about it. Or it's crossed his mind. Anything and everything may, potentially, conceivably, possibly, if time allows, be added in some future update. In this game or possibly the next one.

 

[Swagger897]

A more direct question is "Why are there not difficulty level options for the AI so that people can play at the level they want to?"

That already exists. It's in the settings menu.

One problem is that the races in Gran Turismo can't be found in reality. I don't know any racing series that runs high performance street cars, for instance. Most racing series runs racing cars and they all have very clear regulations to keep the car evenly matched. I suppose that in amateur racing it's more commong to "bring what you've got" (like in the Swedish Rally Sprint Championship about a week ago, where Petter Solberg was the only one who brought a WRC car), but in professional racing the cars are always very close in performance. In Gran Turismo, the races brings together a lot of very different cars to compete against each other and common sense says that whoever has the best car is going to be first. The only way a C6 Corvette is going to beat a Ferrari FXX is if the Ferrari has a mechanical failure, and that doesn't happen in the game.

For a realistic racing career mode, they should ditch 90% of the road car competitions and replace them with racing car competitions and make sure the cars that are competing in each class is close in performance. I think that's about the only way to make the races tighter, because no matter how good the AI is, the computer driving a slower car will always fall behind the computer that's driving a faster car.

Yes but then I think they would have to change the name of the game. I was thinking the same thing for a while but when you look at how many events they have and how little racing cars we have, there would not be enough unless teams are introduced using different colors.

 

[phil_75]

Better engine sounds are not coming to gt6 it will be an update for GT7 soon. we will have to live with the digital sounds

What is the relevance of a bad song?

Aaah.. I got it, Bad Audio!

 

[eSZee]

That already exists. It's in the settings menu.

?
Arcade mode AI aggression?

 

[research]

That already exists. It's in the settings menu.

PLEASE do not take your own confusion and distribute it ... it's bad for everyone.

 

[HuskyGT]

The sounds are acceptable; they don't need to upgrade them since they are probably as good as it gets for the hardware capabilities.

What is UNACCEPTABLE is cars that don't have a correct engine sound. That is NOT a console thing, and rather someone at PD not having the knowledge to do the job right. Many PS3/Xbox360 and even some PS2 games get the sounds right on cars that GT6 still has wrong. So there is no excuse.

I still insist there is confusion in this topic. There are two separate opinions and in some cases one isn't really understanding what the other is talking about.

Some want "realistic" sounds, as the sound itself; how loud or rich it is, detonations and such, no matter if their Diablo sounds like a Viper.

Others (me included) know that sounds could be a bit better but are okay with them. We only want the sample to be accurate to the car. In simulated realism and for the sake of immersion, THIS is what counts. This can be done easily, and if PD doesn't, it just shows that their Quality Check focuses on other things, and that the moron(s) who select the samples can get away with their stupidity (since GT2. GT1 doesn't count because there were only 3 or 4 samples for every car). It's so 🤬 IRRITATING.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

That already exists. It's in the settings menu.

It has no bearing on career mode though. I should have added that to my replacement question. That setting only affects Arcade mode A.I.

 

[Raggadish]

Anyone who wanted GT6 on PS3 and not on PS4 pretty much should give up their right to wish for better sound. That was a pipe dream on PS3 since GT5 was already memory constrained. Yeah, probably not a popular opinion but I guess I wanted to say...you got what you wished for considering the platforms technical limitations.

 

[Swagger897]

PLEASE do not take your own confusion and distribute it ... it's bad for everyone.

I'm sorry but from what I Interpreted as AI was for everything..

 

[eSZee]

I'm sorry but from what I Interpreted as AI was for everything..

No, the aggression setting is just in Arcade as it's the only place you can adjust it.
Even then, I'm not 100% sure the aggression setting actually makes much of a difference. Only ran the AI @10 and it was no tougher than in career mode.

 

[KinLM]

The sounds are acceptable; they don't need to upgrade them since they are probably as good as it gets for the hardware capabilities.

What is UNACCEPTABLE is cars that don't have a correct engine sound. That is NOT a console thing, and rather someone at PD not having the knowledge to do the job right. Many PS3/Xbox360 and even some PS2 games get the sounds right on cars that GT6 still has wrong. So there is no excuse.

I still insist there is confusion in this topic. There are two separate opinions and in some cases one isn't really understanding what the other is talking about.

Some want "realistic" sounds, as the sound itself; how loud or rich it is, detonations and such, no matter if their Diablo sounds like a Viper.

Others (me included) know that sounds could be a bit better but are okay with them. We only want the sample to be accurate to the car. In simulated realism and for the sake of immersion, THIS is what counts. This can be done easily, and if PD doesn't, it just shows that their Quality Check focuses on other things, and that the moron(s) who select the samples can get away with their stupidity (since GT2. GT1 doesn't count because there were only 3 or 4 samples for every car). It's so 🤬 IRRITATING.

This is how I feel. I think that the sounds are actually okay (considering the hardware).

I just am tired of hearing a V10 noise in an Aventador, for instance. Whoever made that decision must truly be deaf.

 

[jlmcmillan1978]

I am not holding my breath on sounds to be updated any time soon, don't think until GT7.

PS3 RAM is what 256MB? ?

If they did improve the sounds for most of the cars, what would PD need to cut down on in GT6 to make the sounds a reality? There is only so much/pushing of the PS3 hardward they can do without having to cut down on quality somewhere.

I don't know where I am going with this so oh well, my ****** two cents in this

Spot on. Improvements to the sounds is going to require a lot more RAM which means PS4 and GT7. It's also going to require a re-think by PD as to how they go about things. No more using 99% of the platforms power on graphics and lighting leaving nothing for complex and rich sounds or intelligent AI. At least that's what I hope.

There might be some small improvements through patches to GT6 but we can't be to hopeful. Their talk of improvements could go on for years, it's a form of stalling designed to create enough hope in the hearts of fans that they won't abandon the series. Most interviews with Kaz seem like 'staged' journalism to me. I can understand being a bit of a deer in the headlights when face to face with a personal hero in a interview, but the hard questions are rarely asked and never answered. It's all about promoting the title, so no room for the negative in such interviews.

 

[Jose Mendonca]

T

I am not holding my breath on sounds to be updated any time soon, don't think until GT7.

PS3 RAM is what 256MB? ?

If they did improve the sounds for most of the cars, what would PD need to cut down on in GT6 to make the sounds a reality? There is only so much/pushing of the PS3 hardward they can do without having to cut down on quality somewhere.

I don't know where I am going with this so oh well, my ****** two cents in this

That excuse would work if all racing games on the ps3 sounded like crap. And we all know that is not true.
If EA can make better sounds with the nfs series, then surely PD can do at least the same if not better

 

[KinLM]

T

That excuse would work if all racing games on the ps3 sounded like crap. And we all know that is not true.
If EA can make better sounds with the nfs series, then surely PD can do at least the same if not better

If PD can (usually) hold 60 FPS with adaptive tessellation and have better graphics than the NFS series, then surely EA could do the same if not better.


You see the problem with that argument? Anybody can say anybody can do as well as somebody else on the same console. The thing is, is that each game is stronger in some areas and weaker in others. They all utilize the system for different things.

EA may be able to have nice sounds because they back off in other areas which use RAM. You can't say that it can be done by PD just because EA do it because it isn't so simple.

 

[Swagger897]

T

That excuse would work if all racing games on the ps3 sounded like crap. And we all know that is not true.
If EA can make better sounds with the nfs series, then surely PD can do at least the same if not better

But how many games run with this much content? Would you want a two disc game, in which you only use one disc once?

The answer is no. The point they have, which is legitiamate but not as much as we think of it, is that they wanted to improve the physics. We all knew that the cars handled too good. So how many other sims have gone to manufactures who directly, not as OEM's, but specialize in those products, and ask to make a game for them basically. The smile that was on my face when I saw the difference in the Nissan leaf from the past two iterations was ear to ear... But then it dropped with the sound. We all know how hastily they produced GT 6, but we also saw how many new things they had planned. Sure there have been frustrations about promises not kept or explained, but we can say what they have planned blows out what we got in the first few months of 5.

We all saw and experienced first person these changes. And so far I've liked them. But, just as we saw how fast they got 6 out, there's most likely the method to the madness behind it. I assume that they already knew that they could only update the physics engine for 6 to put it on the ps3 in order to retain customers for gt7 on the ps4. So their "sound system" they've been working on for a "few years" was probably already known not to make it...

I for one will still give $60 for a game with an R 18 which I feel that represents it best however, which is the only reason I'm still on GT ...

 

[LVracerGT]

Can we get off sounds and continue discussing what other questions were asked at the roundtable discussion? There's a million and one different threads about how terrible the sounds are in GT and why. I would like to know more about what other questions were asked and the responses given.

 

[research]

This thread was started for an OLD roundtable discussion. The new roundtable discussion which took place on wednesday and included "members of the gran turismo production team" has come and gone, and we have NO written info on what the hell happened in there.

I'm skimming through the stream video now, and it appears we are talking to a Sony "Brand Manager". Oh holy hell, here we go..

At 19:40, Jordan asks about "what sort of things (updates) can we expect in the future, and when can we expect to see them", which is the only thing most of us care about. To hell with VisionGT cars, KAZ documentaries, and whatever other forms of fluff surrounding this racing game that seem to have conquered the forefront of the information sphere.

The answer from our "brand manager" after he rambles about the great experiences they have already given us with the 5 exclusive cars released since launch: "There will be updates to the game features as well as exclusive cars"

Jordan: "Thats great".

I disagree with my entire heart and soul. That is not great. It's an empty marketing answer from a marketing man with NO ACTUAL CONNECTION to those studios in japan. He even pre-faced this answer with "well, obviously there's only so much I can basically say.." while looking towards the ground and uncomfortably smiling.

That is correct sir, because you don't effing KNOW. Why have you been brought here, if not to waste our time with the fluff? Enough with the fluff! We want to simulate motorsport, gad-damnit!

Qualifying: ON
Grid-Starts: ON
A.I. Rubberbanding: OFF

What the 🤬 !! We just want to race, and compete! If Ayrton Senna played this game today, he would look at you strangely and ask, "so this game is really just for driving?"

 

[Tier 2 Racing]

This thread was started for an OLD roundtable discussion. The new roundtable discussion which took place on wednesday and included "members of the gran turismo production team" has come and gone, and we have NO written info on what the hell happened in there.

I'm skimming through the stream video now, and it appears we are talking to a Sony "Brand Manager". Oh holy hell, here we go..

At 19:40, Jordan asks about "what sort of things (updates) can we expect in the future, and when can we expect to see them", which is the only thing most of us care about. To hell with VisionGT cars, KAZ documentaries, and whatever other forms of fluff surrounding this racing game that seem to have conquered the forefront of the information sphere.

The answer from our "brand manager" after he rambles about the great experiences they have already given us with the 5 exclusive cars released since launch: "There will be updates to the game features as well as exclusive cars"

Jordan: "Thats great".

I disagree with my entire heart and soul. That is not great. It's an empty marketing answer from a marketing man with NO ACTUAL CONNECTION to those studios in japan. He even pre-faced this answer with "well, obviously there's only so much I can basically say.." while looking towards the ground and uncomfortably smiling.

That is correct sir, because you don't effing KNOW. Why have you been brought here, if not to waste our time with the fluff? Enough with the fluff! We want to simulate motorsport, gad-damnit!

Qualifying: ON
Grid-Starts: ON
A.I. Rubberbanding: OFF

What the 🤬 !! We just want to race, and compete! If Ayrton Senna played this game today, he would look at you strangely and ask, "so this game is really just for driving?"

 

[mcfizzle]

This thread was started for an OLD roundtable discussion. The new roundtable discussion which took place on wednesday and included "members of the gran turismo production team" has come and gone, and we have NO written info on what the hell happened in there.

I'm skimming through the stream video now, and it appears we are talking to a Sony "Brand Manager". Oh holy hell, here we go..

At 19:40, Jordan asks about "what sort of things (updates) can we expect in the future, and when can we expect to see them", which is the only thing most of us care about. To hell with VisionGT cars, KAZ documentaries, and whatever other forms of fluff surrounding this racing game that seem to have conquered the forefront of the information sphere.

The answer from our "brand manager" after he rambles about the great experiences they have already given us with the 5 exclusive cars released since launch: "There will be updates to the game features as well as exclusive cars"

Jordan: "Thats great".

I disagree with my entire heart and soul. That is not great. It's an empty marketing answer from a marketing man with NO ACTUAL CONNECTION to those studios in japan. He even pre-faced this answer with "well, obviously there's only so much I can basically say.." while looking towards the ground and uncomfortably smiling.

That is correct sir, because you don't effing KNOW. Why have you been brought here, if not to waste our time with the fluff? Enough with the fluff! We want to simulate motorsport, gad-damnit!

Qualifying: ON
Grid-Starts: ON
A.I. Rubberbanding: OFF

What the 🤬 !! We just want to race, and compete! If Ayrton Senna played this game today, he would look at you strangely and ask, "so this game is really just for driving?"

I disagree with you completely on the brand manager. The guy is obviously knowledgeable AND connected to PD whether you believe so or not. But you can be disrespectful to him as a person because he wasn't given permission to share information other than what we saw of the track if you wish.

The other thing I notice is a whole lot of "we want" and "us" instead of "I want". You speak for yourself, not the entire GT community.

Otherwise a 'spot on' write up of what took place.👎