The Sound Update Thread (The Return)

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While I doubt they are pushing any tech boundaries, codemastes continues to make really really good sounding games. Check out this Stratos clip from the new Dirt game.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRwdkIQ7aGo

There is even a reverb of the induction noise. That is a subtle detail I haven't heard before in other games.

And the more fearsome sounding 6R4.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sHetwzAoqQ

I would even say these are some of the best sounding and most detailed engine sounds I've heard in any game.
Codemasters actually are pushing technological boundaries. They use high-order ambisonic mixing instead of the "standard" unphysical pairwise channel panning.

They mix sounds according to how they contribute to the sound field at the listener location, and encode that as spherical harmonics (which is where the "order" comes in; the higher the order, the more spatial harmonics are represented). That way, every speaker contributes to sound from any direction, realising a full aural hologram of the virtual sound.

Check the Wikipedia page on Ambisonics; Codemasters use Blue Ripple Sound's Rapture3D product, which includes a few other goodies that other APIs don't seem to bother with.

That sense of spatial envelopment you get with Codies' recent games, including the interior sounds, couldn't come without such attention to faithful real-world reproduction of virtual soundfields. I.e., it couldn't have come if they stuck with the old, established way. ;)

"Cabin reverb" is something PD are working towards, too, but it needs a bit more computational power throwing at it than it currently gets in GT6 (and it needs intake sounds to make any real sense).
 
The DiRT series' sounds have always been top notch. PD could take note of a few things from them. For example, the interior sound for a stripped out rally car is on point. Even the other little sounds and things as well.

However it must be acknowledged that when compared to GT, in DiRT we're dealing with about 50 cars (if memory serves) with no modifications involved that could change the vehicle sound. Whereas in PD's case, when you minus the duplicates and cars of the same engine sound, we're dealing with way over 300 cars and not to mention the sound after modifications for most cars. As this has been said before I believe.

I agree with @Griffith500 in the sense of rather have a one size fits all shoe that is able to adapt easily, quickly and perfectly to its wearer and cover many cars at quickly rather than spending too much time making the perfect Cinderella shoe for each car and each modification. I dunno about that analogy but spare me it's early :P

That's thinking of it from a practical and business perspective. AES is the key really in my eyes provided it gets done well.
The car count is only relevant if it's out of sync with the budget. You can't compare 50 cars vs. 300 cars unless you compare the resources both games are working with. You don't think Dirt is working with 1/6th the budget of GT do you?

The one size fits all shoe will be great, so long as all the shoes don't look somewhat similar and they aren't all a half size off:sly:
 
Codemasters actually are pushing technological boundaries. They use high-order ambisonic mixing instead of the "standard" unphysical pairwise channel panning.

They mix sounds according to how they contribute to the sound field at the listener location, and encode that as spherical harmonics (which is where the "order" comes in; the higher the order, the more spatial harmonics are represented). That way, every speaker contributes to sound from any direction, realising a full aural hologram of the virtual sound.

Check the Wikipedia page on Ambisonics; Codemasters use Blue Ripple Sound's Rapture3D product, which includes a few other goodies that other APIs don't seem to bother with.

That sense of spatial envelopment you get with Codies' recent games, including the interior sounds, couldn't come without such attention to faithful real-world reproduction of virtual soundfields. I.e., it couldn't have come if they stuck with the old, established way. ;)

"Cabin reverb" is something PD are working towards, too, but it needs a bit more computational power throwing at it than it currently gets in GT6 (and it needs intake sounds to make any real sense).

I wish codemasters would produce an out and out competitor to GT and Forza. They have the brand cache, talent, and finances to do it. I wouldn't even mind something in the 150-200 car range. Essentially grid but with simulation-esque physics. Something satisfying to drive with a wheel.
 
And it's not the finished game either, Steam early access.
That's all well and good (I know what you're thinking - this proves gt7 could use samples :sly: ) but the fact still stands that PD cannot record and sample hundreds of cars for their next release. A sound engine that can calculate each car's sound, on the other hand, does get the job done. And theoretically, with all the varying parameters that will be used, it should be more accurate than any sample could be.

It's exciting!! :D

Those dirt rally sounds are glorious btw :bowdown:
 
That's all well and good (I know what you're thinking - this proves gt7 could use samples :sly: ) but the fact still stands that PD cannot record and sample hundreds of cars for their next release. A sound engine that can calculate each car's sound, on the other hand, does get the job done. And theoretically, with all the varying parameters that will be used, it should be more accurate than any sample could be.

It's exciting!! :D

Those dirt rally sounds are glorious btw :bowdown:
Of course they could record samples, there's no reason they can't. They have a budget that dwarfs every other racing game except for Forza. I don't see how anyone could claim that this can't be done, it's just a matter of time and effort. The resources are there to do it if they choose to. There's also nothing holding them to retaining the entire catalogue of cars either, so the size of the task is completely in their control.

A sound engine that produces car sounds organically has the potential to get the job done. Whether it works or not, in game, for every car and sounds authentic in game conditions, is yet to be proven. I remain skeptical until I see it actually working.
 
there's no reason they can't.

image.jpg


Unless you actually do want them to take forever to release GT7.

Plus, I quite like the idea of them trying something like this. It will allow them to replicate sounds on a level not seen before.
 
Regardless of whether PD use samples or AES, they still need to record cars.

Recording isn't the difficult part of producing samples, largely because it's such a mature and accomplished industry. In the case of both Forza and GT (there is more evidence for the latter than the former, that I'm aware of), there are cars which have been recorded but those recordings not used in game (modified sounds in Forza's case, examples like the stock R8 V8 in GT's case), and there are still more cars they recorded but that aren't even in the games.

The difficult part is asset production from raw recordings, which is an artistic task, and management of those resulting assets. The size of that management task grows in a non-linear fashion with the number of assets, whether that be a large number of cars with few samples each, or a comparatively few cars with many samples each, as time (and hence quality targets) progresses.

For AES, the asset management is perfectly linear with car count (1 file each), and the quality is dependent on the synthesis engine, not the number of assets. That is, synthesis is code-limited, samples are content-limited in their range of expressiveness (and resulting perceived "quality"). For synthesis, you pay the same few programmers and a fixed number of sound designers for a fixed car count to upgrade the sound scheme. For samples you pay incrementally more sound designers every time you need to increase the quality, even on a similar number of cars.


So in the case of samples, the size of the task will continue to increase at an untenable rate for the sake of competition (especially against synthesis), whereas the synthesis approach will level out fairly quickly (because content will be limited by other tasks, e.g. modeling). Equally, the same content can be re-used in the synthesis case, even for a major overhaul of the quality and features, because the system is based on physical parameters in the first place, which can't have changed. In the case of samples, if there's a change in the way the sounds are to be represented and played back, e.g. longer loops, more samples across the rev range etc., the whole sample bank needs re-doing and the existing loops (not the original recordings, necessarily) are effectively useless (in the same way that old models are).

That's not to say that synthesis won't need artistic attention during such a change. But that work will only ever increase modestly, no matter the detail of the underlying model, because it'll only ever amount to hand-tweaking some filters to match timbre, requiring the same number of sound designers for a given car count and time target. With samples, the work increases with every sample you add, plus the need to balance and match all samples against each other - again, non-linear growth of effort.

In terms of budget, you get more for your money (in the long run) with synthesis. Sampling is effectively throwing your money away. ;)
 
Regardless of whether PD use samples or AES, they still need to record cars.

...there are still more cars they recorded but that aren't even in the games.

In terms of budget, you get more for your money (in the long run) with synthesis. Sampling is effectively throwing your money away. ;)

I remember seeing cars being recorded but the sound was never introduced in the game, which has two explanations. Those are being ready for the introduction of the car, or, those samples are being worked out by the new system to be introduced later on a different game or in a different update for GT6.

It's something that always intrigued me...
As for your last comment... indeed hahaha....
 
Regardless of whether PD use samples or AES, they still need to record cars.

Recording isn't the difficult part of producing samples, largely because it's such a mature and accomplished industry. In the case of both Forza and GT (there is more evidence for the latter than the former, that I'm aware of), there are cars which have been recorded but those recordings not used in game (modified sounds in Forza's case, examples like the stock R8 V8 in GT's case), and there are still more cars they recorded but that aren't even in the games.
Video games as a whole aren't into a "mature" space to start with, but recording cars for use in video games is exceptionally rare. There's maybe a total of 50 people on the planet who have done so as a profession. Recording in and of itself is a very artistic process as well - just putting a microphone in front of a thing doesn't guarantee that you record the sound you set out to capture. Cars in particular are very complex to record (kind of like a drumkit) because the sound sources are spread out over an area, and depending on where your ears are in relation to them you hear things differently. Add on top of that the volume, which affects our ears and a microphone in radically different ways, and then throw the recording environment in on top of all of that, and it's very easy to understand that a professional recording sounds different from a cell phone video, which sounds different from the real thing. Recording cars presents a host of technical challenges too, where mic placement in relation to a massive wind source of an intake/exhaust or worse on a moving car means what was a great sound at standstill or near idle becomes unusable at higher RPMs.

The difficult part is asset production from raw recordings, which is an artistic task, and management of those resulting assets. The size of that management task grows in a non-linear fashion with the number of assets, whether that be a large number of cars with few samples each, or a comparatively few cars with many samples each, as time (and hence quality targets) progresses.
With modern game audio engines the asset management issue is virtually non-existent.

In terms of budget, you get more for your money (in the long run) with synthesis. Sampling is effectively throwing your money away. ;)
Technically true but only if your synths sound good. Developing synths costs you development hours, which is in-house code development time. Also there's no pre-existing solution for this type of audio system, so you'll be essentially developing your own audio engine from scratch. Not a lot of studios have the capital to invest dev time for such a thing, and publishers probably wouldn't bother funding such a system because of its limited usefulness outside of a racing game. By comparison you can outsource recordings that work with wwise/fmod to people like me for super cheap, and assuming your library of recordings is of a high enough quality, should last you a great many years before needing to be replaced.
 
Codemasters actually are pushing technological boundaries. They use high-order ambisonic mixing instead of the "standard" unphysical pairwise channel panning.

They mix sounds according to how they contribute to the sound field at the listener location, and encode that as spherical harmonics (which is where the "order" comes in; the higher the order, the more spatial harmonics are represented). That way, every speaker contributes to sound from any direction, realising a full aural hologram of the virtual sound.

Check the Wikipedia page on Ambisonics; Codemasters use Blue Ripple Sound's Rapture3D product, which includes a few other goodies that other APIs don't seem to bother with.

That sense of spatial envelopment you get with Codies' recent games, including the interior sounds, couldn't come without such attention to faithful real-world reproduction of virtual soundfields. I.e., it couldn't have come if they stuck with the old, established way. ;)

"Cabin reverb" is something PD are working towards, too, but it needs a bit more computational power throwing at it than it currently gets in GT6 (and it needs intake sounds to make any real sense).



Bla bla bla.. this game have 10 years (2005)





In 1200 gt6 cars you will not find as good a sound like this, sound makers gt are stupid and not work.
 
Bla bla bla.. this game have 10 years (2005)

In 1200 gt6 cars you will not find as good a sound like this, sound makers gt are stupid and not work.

Congratulations, you've earned yourself a warning. Carry on with that attitude and the blatant bypassing of the swear filter and I can guarantee you won't last long here.
 
I get that he wasn't part & parcel for Forza's sounds but hey I like the fidelity and detail bit

I like the way Forza 2's sounds are



So maybe something like that is destined for GT but on a different level with AES though?

This turbo noise makes me remember of the one from GT4's.. Ahhh, such good memories with these strange sounds haha, the GT500 cars were only making this strange turbo sound and I loved it somehow :D
 
am I the only one who is concerned this guy worked on starwars kinetic ?

It was terrible or is terrible same difference
 
am I the only one who is concerned this guy worked on starwars kinetic ?

It was terrible or is terrible same difference

Unless the sound was what made the game bad, I doubt it'll be worth concern.
 
I remember seeing cars being recorded but the sound was never introduced in the game, which has two explanations. Those are being ready for the introduction of the car, or, those samples are being worked out by the new system to be introduced later on a different game or in a different update for GT6.

A possible third explanation is that they were examining the sounds around different cars in great detail and that the source sample themselves will never be used in a game. Jus' sayin'.
 
PD grabbing that crème de la crème 👍

Even if it ends up being on par (initially) with the old method there's cost saving and flexibility.

The teasers (cars using AES in GT6) are very promising and the technology seems like a next logical step but can't blame anyone for being skeptical.

Rechecked 1.18 for AES and they've added some new stuff:



AESSlot
misfire_cycles
misfire_rate
misfire_thr_sens

Now would they add that to GT6 without planning on actually using it ? Aren't some AES parameters already turned off in GT6 ?
 
You never played it then :lol:

If its Wii game, chances are I haven't. Hell, I haven't even heard it until now.

Edit: Are you sure You aren't talking about Star Wars Kinect?
 
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I've been out of the loop for a while now, but can somebody explain please what AES is and why it is now the caboose of the hype train?
 
I've been out of the loop for a while now, but can somebody explain please what AES is and why it is now the caboose of the hype train?
Caboose:confused:...wrong end of the train.

DDA40X-6900.jpg
 
Bla bla bla.. this game have 10 years (2005)





In 1200 gt6 cars you will not find as good a sound like this, sound makers gt are stupid and not work.

you didn't find it odd that the audio you hear and the video in this example don't line up at all? Like, not even close? The sound you hear isn't coming from the video that's playing, despite your best attempt to argue whatever point you were trying to make.

GT Legends (and GTR2) is was a great sounding game for its time, but that time has gone now.
 
you didn't find it odd that the audio you hear and the video in this example don't line up at all? Like, not even close? The sound you hear isn't coming from the video that's playing, despite your best attempt to argue whatever point you were trying to make.

He had no point to make, just a childish response.

Now lets ignore that and get back on topic.
 
I've been out of the loop for a while now, but can somebody explain please what AES is and why it is now the caboose of the hype train?

AES in this context means an acoustical synthesis modeling system some people believed PD were developing. I don't know how much technical audio context you have, so sorry if my explanation is either too simplistic or too complex, but ask away if it's on the too complex side.

With the PS2/Xbox Original generation of consoles, there was enough RAM space for racing games to explore using long .wav files as a realistic audio source, and the development of the current-ish audio technique used by GT and by Forza (and plenty others) was born. Essentially, you record the car holding one RPM (usually using a dyno to achieve that part) for a few seconds, and then from that cut a looping audio file, usually around 1.5 seconds long. Repeat this process for some interval throughout the RPM band. Then, in the game engine, use pitch-shifting and crossfading to transition from loop to loop. The number of loops you can have is determined by your RAM budget, but this system uses very little CPU cycles.

Codemasters uses a slightly different technique called "granular synthesis" wherein the audio file is chopped up into extremely small loops - the size of 1 engine firing event - and then these little pieces are called grains. The engine knows what the exact RPM of each grain is, and when the game engine calls for a certain RPM the sound system will pick grains near that RPM in a random fashion. This process eliminates a lot of the artifacts that loop systems can exhibit, but comes at a much greater CPU cost and doesn't save much RAM cost.

In the NES/SNES/etc days, there wasn't such a thing as playing an audio file. In those days, you had audio oscillators on a chip that you had to manipulate and program to make the sounds you wanted to hear. This would be a lot closer to the concept of "synthesizer" that the public generally thinks of when they hear that word - modifying filters and oscillators to create a sound. Anyway, AES is essentially that concept all grown up. Thanks to the power of computers as well as the power of the new consoles, you can now feed a program an audio sample, and the computer can design the manipulations needed to make oscillators and filters reproduce that sound. So, if you had a great recording of a car going through its RPM band, you could feed this recording to the program and let it learn the manipulations needed to recreate every RPM. Then, you take those manipulations and program them to be driven by the game physics engine. What you get is a CPU-intensive but RAM-free audio system.

The reason the synthesizer concept got really popular here was that the reason GT's sounds are all vacuum-y is because they use the loop-based system, with very few loops (like 3 per RPM band few). The assumption is that the reasoning behind so few loops is that the game RAM-limits its audio (presumably to make more RAM available for visuals). So moving the audio to a synthesized system that has no RAM cost but potentially improves the audio quality by a drastic amount is very enticing for fans, and I believe Griffith500 has been the driving force in promoting the idea that this synthesis model is happening. However I am quite skeptical that such a system is already in existence in GT6.

Hope that helps.

[edit] oh and a blurb on the cost/workflow bit - the key part of the modern synth approach is that it still is dependent on a quality recording to reproduce, and its output can only be as good as the recording it's fed. Also the quality of the audio is dependent on how many oscillators the system is allowed to run - if it can only have 8 oscillators it'll sound like an NES for example.
 
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