The Unofficial GT6 VS Project Cars Debate Thread (Read the Rules!)

[Terronium-12]

" "For a racing game, 60fps is hugely important," Tudor continued. "

" "What people don't know is that the physics underneath runs at 600 times a second. We measure the input you're doing on the
controller 250 times per second. Project Cars does that way more
than any other game - they're all doing that significantly lower. The
screen refreshes 60 times per second - we're measuring the tires, the physics, the suspension, all that stuff, 600 times."

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-28-project-cars-shooting-for-1080p-60fps-on-both-xbox-one-and-ps4


" You were pretty slavish as regards hitting 60fps, and did receive
some criticism from the community for apparently trading off some
poly budget to achieve it. In retrospect, are you glad you stuck to
the 60 frames goal, or could you have created something more
visually attractive if you’d lowered the target to, say, 30?
We get asked this question a lot by the press and my answer hasn’t
changed much from Forza 2 to Forza 3. The reality is that racing
games running at 30fps have to deal with visual shuttering artifacts
in the environment and backgrounds that fly by your field of view
when the car is traversing at high speeds. So you then go and mask
that using motion blur for your environments, which end up eating
into your GPU cycles, which take up resources from other features
you want on-track.
It really turns into a trade-off for the type of visual direction you’re
trying to achieve, and with Forza Motorsport, the visual style is
clear, crisp graphics, and highly-detailed environments and textures.
But in truth, the decision is less about graphics than feel. We
prioritize 60fps as an important feature because it gives the games
a feel you just can’t achieve at 30; for instance, the responsiveness
and feedback of the controls, or physics calculations and visual
manifestation of that on how we model our tire flex and body roll.
While those calculations are decoupled from the graphics and run as
high as 360 frames per second, we found that graphical framerate
impacts the feel of those systems as well. Simply put, we couldn’t
have achieved the experience we wanted if the game only ran at
30fps. I’m sure you would get a similar response from Infinity Ward
regarding Call of Duty."

www.vg247.com/2010/02/03/interview-forza-motorsports-dan-greenawalt/



YET, in 2009, SMStudios disagree? or LIE?

www.kotaku.com.au/2009/09/30fps-vs-60fps-is-negligible-says-need-for-speed-dev/

That doesn't prove your point because you're reading too much into something that really isn't there. Andy isn't implying that 60 is better than 30 frames outright, he's implying that a frame rate of 60 affords the possibility of higher calculations per tick and not having to mask shortcomings.

It works in reverse as well. A game that prioritizes 60 over 30 may not have as much flexibility without a major reworking, so don't think 60 frames is the be-all end-all because it isn't.

 

[giorgos21]

graphics: project cars is better but gt is looking very good too.I believe that gt7 will have better graphics in ps4.The one thing that amazes me in PCARS is the weather visuals.
gameplay: overall pCARS is so much better for me.Clear winner for this part.
more realistic handling, ffb etc.
competition during racing pCARS without second thoughts.

I 've alredy left gt6 behind without regrets.
I'm courius about GT7 though.

 

[doblocruiser]

If you would like to compare games I think it would be better to compare Grid AS to pCARS. Both focus on delivering a racing experience. Physics a side I think GRID AS did on PS3 what pCARS does on PS4.

 

[David Talle]

Is it too much to expect a NEXT GEN driving sim to be a solid 60 fps? GT 6 is more stable

If I remember correctly GT6 had frame rate drops too in the early days when the full grid was displayed on the screen, typically during race starts and early laps.
From my experience pCARS' frame rate drops sometimes but not more often that GT6 did. And never never down to 30FPS, that's for sure !
Every game engine is like a triangle between technical aspect (visuals, sound,..), performance and features (AI, number of cars,...). If you pull one side the 2 others will suffer and each game has its own balance. Switching to PC allows more of the 3 simultaneously if you want all of them.

I played on PS4 - I can't imagine XBone version -

I made a screenshot - without cheating -:

You think it's beautiful, you ?

Wait.... Even Deep Forest on GT6, looks better. No really, PCars is unclean and besides, there are framerate drops ....

I'm sorry but I'm sure PS4 can do much better than that.

I didn't said it was beautiful, I said you can't say it's ugly. Your picture isn't very representative of the game's visuals IMO. Lights and shadows are far more lively and detailed than in GT6 especially during sunset/rise not to mention when the whole thing is moving perception is somewhat different too.
But I'm ok with your point, the game isn't visually astonishing but I personally didn't get the game for its visuals.

 

[Thomas__633]

I played an alpha build of PCars on my laptop and it was genuinely awful. First time booting it up and it ran about 5 fps, not even kidding. (my laptop was top of the line when I bought it, in dec. 2012). I had to turn down the graphics to the lowest setting just for it to run... So it looked terrible, like a Unity game almost. I am honest when I say that I could run Driver better on my laptop and it was a better game for me. I ran GT4 and GTPSP on my laptop and they run fine, in fact some of the games on my laptop from the PSP run doublespeed for some reason (Midnight Club 3 Golf R32 suddenly becomes X2010 on the road...) but anyway I felt bored. And the fact the track I tested it was so easy to shortcut about a second and a half like nothing (I did it by accident most laps). It felt like a non-flowing version of Autumn ring mini and in a bad way.
Project CARS:

And obviously I like GT6, or why would I be on the forums?
*rant ends*

 

[NUNOpt]

PCars is cool but GT is better...Project Cars gave me want to see GT7 !

http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2015/05/ps4_owners_are_clearly_gagging_for_gran_turismo

"Project CARS is the most authentic, beautiful, intense, and technically-advanced racing game on the planet"-SMS.
on the planet!? ...gran turismo, forza motorsport, asseto corsa, iracing, codemaster's F1, grid autosport, driveclub...

Pcars; good? yes. new, different, the best? no.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

That doesn't prove your point because you're reading too much into something that really isn't there. Andy isn't implying that 60 is better than 30 frames outright, he's implying that a frame rate of 60 affords the possibility of higher calculations per tick and not having to mask shortcomings.

It works in reverse as well. A game that prioritizes 60 over 30 may not have as much flexibility without a major reworking, so don't think 60 frames is the be-all end-all because it isn't.

What Andy meant or didnt mean is irrelevent, what Im saying is a true sim needs to maintain as close to 60fps as possible.
In any case, based on what Ive heard on GT7, Im just going to wait for its debut then read this thread again and . . . well, lol.

 

[Terronium-12]

What Andy meant or didnt mean is irrelevent, what Im saying is a true sim needs to maintain as close to 60fps as possible.
In any case, based on what Ive heard on GT7, Im just going to wait for its debut then read this thread again and . . . well, lol.

If it were irrelevant you wouldn't have used it as an argument that still does not hold any water.

Hell, according to you, Forza Motorsport 5 must be more of a "true sim" than just about everything else since it very rarely dips below 60 frames.

*Waits for "but that's on newer hardware" argument, further moving away from the original point of debate.*

 

[KilzoneStrife]

If it were irrelevant you wouldn't have used it as an argument that still does not hold any water.

Hell, according to you, Forza Motorsport 5 must be more of a "true sim" than just about everything else since it very rarely dips below 60 frames.

*Waits for "but that's on newer hardware" argument, further moving away from the original point of debate.*

I could very technical and illustrate why I feel both GT6 has the better simulation (based on its upgraded transition to GT7 on PS4), but I wont. Its better to wait for the reveal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I played on PS4 - I can't imagine XBone version -

I made a screenshot - without cheating -:

You think it's beautiful, you ?

Wait.... Even Deep Forest on GT6, looks better. No really, PCars is unclean and besides, there are framerate drops ....

I'm sorry but I'm sure PS4 can do much better than that.

Darn it, deleted my edit by accident.

Anyway, here's that track on the PS4, so you can see what it looks like in game. Obviously it's in a desert on scrub land, not in a lush green pasture:



Every dev makes tradeoffs. The framerate drops in PCars are in heavy weather and/or big grids. DC chose to lock to 30 fps and ended up with 12 cars on track but heavy eye candy. Forza chose to lock 60 fps but has no weather and 16 cars on track. PCars chose to let the framerate drop in some situations but has 45 cars on track and very heavy weather conditions. I'll take the latter any day of the week and would do the same with GT7 given the choice, no question about it. More cars + weather >> 16 cars or 30 fps any day.

Maybe PD can do better, maybe not, but lets not act like the PS4 is the second coming of the microchip because it's far from it.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

I'd rather race against 45 overly aggressive cars with a slight dip in frame rate than chase 15 boring rabbits at 60 fps.
But that's just my opinion obviously, each to their own I guess.

 

[Zlork]

My photo was taken with Share fonction

 

[Terronium-12]

I could very technical and illustrate why I feel both GT6 has the better simulation (based on its upgraded transition to GT7 on PS4), but I wont. Its better to wait for the reveal.

I'm confused. I was confused from the start, but now I'm really confused.

First you say this:

not sure how it can be called "sim" when it hits mid 30fps at times ..

Which fully implies pCars isn't a sim because it isn't running at a consistent 60fps, or at least close to it. Which you would later confirm by saying the following....

Is it too much to expect a NEXT GEN driving sim to be a solid 60 fps? GT 6 is more stable

...what Im saying is a true sim needs to maintain as close to 60fps as possible.

But now you're saying you believe GT6 to be a better sim than Forza 5 despite the latter running at a consistent 60 frames, the very same criticism you're damning pCars for?

Do you know what a logical inconsistency is?

 

[KilzoneStrife]

I'm confused. I was confused from the start, but now I'm really confused.

First you say this:



Which fully implies pCars isn't a sim because it isn't running at a consistent 60fps, or at least close to it. Which you would later confirm by saying the following....





But now you're saying you believe GT6 to be a better sim than Forza 5 despite the latter running at a consistent 60 frames, the very same criticism you're damning pCars for?

Do you know what a logical inconsistency is?

Did I say fps is the only measuring stick? I assure you, it isnt. in any case, no point arguing. Like I said, lets see Next Gen vs Next Gen , GT7 vs PCars . . . and then lol at the White Knights with emperors new clothes mentality, like in the official Pcars forum.

 

[Terronium-12]

And now my head hurts.

 

[dice1998]

I could very technical and illustrate why I feel both GT6 has the better simulation (based on its upgraded transition to GT7 on PS4), but I wont.

Because you can't, can you? If you can, please enlighten me as to how GT6 is technically the better simulator as compared to Project CARS. I genuinely want to know how.

 

[NixxxoN]

Offline mode is a routine because PD has tried their damnedest to make it that way. There is no reason the offline portion of the game should be devoid of fun, nor is there any reason to suppose that going online, on its own, immediately makes a game fun.

I recognize you've been told this dozens of times, so it's unlikely to sink in this round: how you play games is not how everybody else plays games. While you see offline as unimportant, that view is not shared, and you are not an arbiter of what is and isn't fun. Say it with me now: options!

Let's see: a Sim Mode that had a far less linear approach, without the silly star system of GT6 (which was nothing but the XP system even Kaz said wasn't the best choice in GT5, with a new coat of paint). A used car dealership. An Arcade Mode that didn't feel like an afterthought. Driving Missions. A better Photo Mode. A better B-Spec Mode (and it didn't take 12 months to shoe-horn in). AI that somehow was more clever, in ways, than what we have in GT6, and certainly more of a challenge than the rabbit-chase we've got now.


I'm not. Physics are an aspect of gameplay, but they're certainly not synonyms. What are your thoughts on Mario Kart?

I can, because I have. I've regularly gone back to older GT games to replay them. Because they can be fun.
What you're suggesting (that only the newest iteration can be entertaining) is the same line of logic that would suggest you only choose the fastest car for every single race in GT6. Are you only driving the Red Bull cars?

I certainly can't share your opinion. You're basically saying that if you have an iPhone 6, you might enjoy sometimes going back to using an Iphone 1. Its a massive evolution, and the old product feels very outdated, and very bad/primitive in general once you're used to the newest one.

And I think your last example makes no sense... (old gt vs new gt equals to slow car vs fast car???) err.... For a start I think there are plenty of cars (slower cars) that are more fun to drive than the Red Bulls, which go on rails.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I can't grasp the hypocracy behind "Pcars is bad because it's frame rate drops" when under extreme conditions, and meanwhile praising GT6 which has an abysmal frame rate which drops on literally every circuit under ideal conditions.

And before any "But it's on the struggling PS3", the older GT games on even older hardware did a fine job with the frame rate.

 

[Terronium-12]

Did I say fps is the only measuring stick? I assure you, it isnt. in any case, no point arguing. Like I said, lets see Next Gen vs Next Gen , GT7 vs PCars . . . and then lol at the White Knights with emperors new clothes mentality, like in the official Pcars forum.

You sure implied it by saying a "true sim" needs to maintain as close to 60fps as possible, and asking how pCars can be called a sim when it dips below 30 at times, but now that GT6 falls foul of this you're moving the goal posts?

How very convenient.

Gran Turismo 4 must be a superior simulator to 5 and 6 as well, considering everything I can find on it points to it running at a consistent 60 frames as well. So where are you going to move the goal posts now?

 

[Tired Tyres]

There are quite a few very insecure GT players in this thread! All I'll say is that ONE 10 lap race in Project Cars was more fun than EVERY SECOND I spent in GT5 and GT6 all put together.

 

[alexnipi]

im still happy with the gt6 environment for a old gen is awesome.
Look at 1:05

 

[FastFurious77]

There are quite a few very insecure GT players in this thread! All I'll say is that ONE 10 lap race in Project Cars was more fun than EVERY SECOND I spent in GT5 and GT6 all put together.

Just my opinion really. Will try to be UNBIASED here.

The bouncing and strain on the steering linkage and chassis as you turn at speeds high enough to make the car shake and rattle and you feel the loss of steering failing when you try to go round a corner too fast. You feel lots of things going on and the car veers straight off the track unless you slow down to decent enough steering speeds.

The car when going fast enough leaves the ground over bumps and you see and feel the suspension working and bouncing. The car leans and rolls properly on cornering and you feel that on steering the car rattling and the tyres struggling for grip. By pulling GPS tags that each location has in the game, the volumetric throttle system checks the ambient temperature and air pressure for the track, this info gets routed to the carto determine how much torque is available and hence how the locomotion of the car should behave.

Braking is realistic and you need to time your braking well before the corner. You here brakes squeaking differently depending on your throttle input. The sense of all the physics with the lots of 100 + interweaving sound samples accompanying every turn of the wheel, throttle and brake input engine sounds, sounds going on from the cars chassis, and body and other parts, window wipers and gear shifting, rain, wind and storms all creates immersion.

The detail on tracks is pretty good even on my PS4. I'd say it more than rivals GT6 and espeically Forza 5 and is much more detailed with some tracks than others. Its a thrilling experience. And it feels good. The sounds and everything else going on makes PCARS sense of immersion and driving much more real. For tracks, some sections of roadside detail alone features over 8 different materials, 4 different shaders, and over 32 textures, - more than double the number from previous hardware generations.

In PCARS the width of tyre tread is accurate to each and every car model. The SETA tyre model PCARS uses analyses the tread for flat spots, measure volumetric temperature and even emulates rubber tearing and even allows the tyres to deform as they roll over a rumble strip. The cars tyres will act like the types of tyres technology the cars had in their respective generation. So older cars won't handle and feel like the car is on modern tyres.

SMS are using a new EULA integrator which means car dynamics are calculated at 600Hz. So with this done at 600 times per second with checks on how the player is interacting with the controller being done at 250 times per second. With the game running at 60 frame per second, what you press and what happens when you press it are therefore involving millions of calculations all being done at lighting speeds to ensure you get the drive of your life.

Every car are modelled at over 300,000 polygons with 50 different shaders recreating each surface authentically. SMS poured thousands of man hours into every single car model. With authentic liveries created for each and interiors made complete with fully-functional dashboards, the car is delivered back to the manufacturer for approval of accuracy and without this the car doesn't make the game. The models are even accurate down to the minute direction that the carbon fibre weaves go on a Pagani interior exterior bodywork.

My overall impression is that PCARS is very good is exciting and thrilling to play. I'm sure the SMS team realize they still have some way to go to complete their goals and ambitions. The game is buggy on all platforms and they will take all the feedback and correct bugs and glitches with updates. New content is sure to come and the refined physics simulation experience is not complete yet. They will be supporting this game for a long time. They recognized that some cars still need to be finished and improved.

 

[David Talle]

im still happy with the gt6 environment for a old gen is awesome.
Look at 1:05

What I am about to say and show is pretty pointless for obvious reasons but like the physics, when you taste better the old one just tastes old.

Have a look at 2:40

 

[Scaff]

I think you have not understood.

GT6 > Project Cars
Assetto Corsa >> Project Cars

Assetto Corsa > GT6 > Project Cars

But that's just my opinion.

And you base this opinion on what?

I could very technical and illustrate why I feel both GT6 has the better simulation (based on its upgraded transition to GT7 on PS4), but I wont. Its better to wait for the reveal.

GT6 is a better simulation because of GT7?

That makes no sense at all, so you best get technical.

Here's a quick few questions for both of you.

• Which title gets torque steer from a standing start right and why?
• Which title correctly models lift off oversteer and why?
• Which title correctly models RR cars power on understeer and why?

My photo was taken with Share fonction

So's mine. Anyone can cherry pick images and I don't recall anyone here saying pCars is the best looking title around. However, cherry picked images aside, its not ugly either.

 

[FastFurious77]

Just figured out some fun things about PCARS. If car is on track and starting from a stand still to do some free practice and no auto pit exit you can set up the game and car for push keybind button for ignition, press keybind button for clutch in then press keybind button for Start Engine and voila. Also the game has KERS and DRS and you can assign a lot but not all controls to a DS4. I almost assigned most controls except for Request Pit Stop which I ran out of a DS4 control button for. So now all I need to know is which cars have working DRS and KERS in PCARS! The only problem is on a DS4 controller the car keeps stalling when the car gets a few feet. As soon as I start every few seconds the car stalls with automatic gearing. I think this is because I assigned the clutch to a DS4 controller. So the car keeps stalling.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just figured out some fun things about PCARS. If car is on track and starting from a stand still to do some free practice and no auto pit exit you can set up the game and car for push keybind button for ignition, press keybind button for clutch in then press keybind button for Start Engine and voila.

Did you know you can also bump start your car if you stall it and forgot to map a "start engine" button? Just a small thing but quite a neat little feature.

 

[FastFurious77]

Did you know you can also bump start your car if you stall it and forgot to map a "start engine" button? Just a small thing but quite a neat little feature.

How to do this johnny????

 

[David Talle]

So now all I need to know is which cars have working DRS and KERS in PCARS!

As far as I know DRS is on Formula A only and KERS on both Formula A and B.

 

[Johnnypenso]

how to do this johnny????

Well the Johnny way is to go to an unfamiliar California Highway track, hit a guardrail hard, spin about 450 degrees and come to a stop in the middle of the track with a stalled engine. Luckily I'm at the crest of a small rise, so I says to myself, "I wonder...maybe...". I turned to start rolling downhill, got up a head of steam, pushed in the clutch, dropped it into second or third, let go of the clutch and voila...off I went.

Alternately you could just stop in the middle of the track, on a hill, with the car in gear, stall the engine..then the rest..

 

[FastFurious77]

Well the Johnny way is to go to an unfamiliar California Highway track, hit a guardrail hard, spin about 450 degrees and come to a stop in the middle of the track with a stalled engine. Luckily I'm at the crest of a small rise, so I says to myself, "I wonder...maybe...". I turned to start rolling downhill, got up a head of steam, pushed in the clutch, dropped it into second or third, let go of the clutch and voila...off I went.

Alternately you could just stop in the middle of the track, on a hill, with the car in gear, stall the engine..then the rest..

I was trying setting up free practice and single race on Dubai autodromo in a McClaren P1 with 5 other drivers. I was going to test out KERS. I didn't get anywhere because kept stalling it LOL. I'm guessing I can't use ignition and start engine or clutch on a DS4 controller right???? Because car keeps stalling on a controller so these 3 functions expect pedals to be hooked up and a shifter.