The Unofficial GT6 VS Project Cars Debate Thread (Read the Rules!)

[dr_slump]

Try multiclass racing, it hits its paroxysm in trafic. The best place to watch is when you're in the fastest class.

I had the entire field getting stuck because of a single accident:
http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/the_dr_slump/slideshow/Project Cars

 

[David Talle]

I had the entire field getting stuck because of a single accident:
http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/the_dr_slump/slideshow/Project Cars

Nice one, but looks more like a bug that is likely to be fixed *hopefully*.

I saw much more subtil dumb behaviors like an LMP1 incapable of passing a GT4 ON A STRAIGHT, and therefore I was stuck behind as well. Perhaps because GT cars are always weaving on the straights under blue flag conditions, everyone knows you have to do that when a car is approaching at 80kph more than you !
And I saw things like this several times. Actually every race.

 

[FastFurious77]

All the cars should feel different, that's the whole point of simulation right? A Mistubishi road car shouldn't feel like a Lotus 49, shouldn't feel like a Zakspeed Capri, shouldn't feel like a BMW Z4 GT3. The wheel forces should feel different because the suspension and tires are completely different. If you're used to games like GT where cars tend to feel kind of similar it takes some getting used to. When I first tried Assetto Corsa it took me a full two weeks, probably a good 40-50 hours of just driving, to really get a feel for things and know what was going on. You simply can't drive an FF road car, like a 60's F1 car, like a modern GT car, they are completely different and those differences are simulated very well IMO.

I think a lot of people don't give it enough time to really get a feel for things and the admittedly annoying bugs do get in the way. There's a reason why there are master FFB settings and settings that are tunable for every car at every track, and it's because every car is different. You can find some relatively good settings for each car and just copy and paste it to each track if you like, or you can tune each one individually for the ultimate in fine tuning. There is an absolute ton of depth and complexity in PCars that you just won't get if you pick it up for a couple of hours and try hotlapping in a couple of cars.

Yeah my sentiments exactly. On GT all too often cars feel so much the same. They should feel different. And people can't expect to like how every car feels to drive like its real life counterpart. This is another reason why I'm bored of GT. Its so boring, theres no life or uniqueness to any car. GT doesn't capture the soul and characteristics of every car. This is why it's so off putting to me.

 

[Zer0]

In the first post:

Oh and before you speak, let me remind you that console generations isnt an excuse to the shortcomings. The only aspect that the generation affects is the graphics and the AI count. It has nothing to do with AI itself, car and track roster, physics, sound, game immersion, etc.

That's false and misleading, who wrote that?

Kaz: I still cannot go into detail, but developing on PS3 was hard: you don’t have enough memory to do all you want. Our goal was to always preserve the feel of Gran Turismo but with the latest installment we had to face limitations. With PS4 we have a lot of memory available: we’ll be able to exploit it easily, inserting elements that we had to force or withheld on PS3.

There will be better graphics, better physics engine, smarter AI and more online options.

https://www.gtplanet.net/big-updates-coming-to-gt6-improved-physics-ai-for-gt7/

 

[Tornado]

Oh boy here we go.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In the first post:

That's false and misleading, who wrote that?
https://www.gtplanet.net/big-updates-coming-to-gt6-improved-physics-ai-for-gt7/

This isn't a GT7 vs. Project Cars thread. There is no GT7 and nothing to compare to.

 

[Terronium-12]

Clearly that's why Forza has superior AI on an architecture that's comparatively inferior in computational pow-wait, that doesn't prove your point.

Clearly that's why games also on the PS3 had superior AI as we-oh damn, I've done it again.

Clearly that's why GT has always had weak AI. Wait, that's not gone correctly either...

 

[Scaff]

In the first post:

That's false and misleading, who wrote that?

https://www.gtplanet.net/big-updates-coming-to-gt6-improved-physics-ai-for-gt7/

Either comment on the comparison between GT and pCars or don't.

What you will not do is attempt to turn the thread into a debate about if cross generation comparisons are valid.

They are and as you missed this part of the first post:

Edited by Mod (again): Comparisons across different platforms are permitted here at GT Planet, this thread is no exception. Do not drag the thread off topic by complaining that its unfair.

I'm just going to remind you of this part of the AUP:

You will, if asked by a representative of the forums, cease posting any content.

 

[David Talle]

Either comment on the comparison between GT and pCars or don't.

What you will not do is attempt to turn the thread into a debate about if cross generation comparisons are valid.

They are and as you missed this part of the first post:

Edited by Mod (again): Comparisons across different platforms are permitted here at GT Planet, this thread is no exception. Do not drag the thread off topic by complaining that its unfair.

I'm just going to remind you of this part of the AUP:

You will, if asked by a representative of the forums, cease posting any content.

The GT6/pCARS debate is valid no matter what because all we want is an awesome game, the machine it runs on is only a mean to achieve this. In the end who cares ? But physics and AI do consume CPU time so there is indeed a correlation between calculation power and what can be done, not only graphics-wise.
But that isn't all, it's also the devs' job to optimize their engines so the flaws aren't obvious. More power means less work needed to reach the same level but not that it is impossible to have decent or better results on an older console.

Now I don't want to be banned so I won't argue any further

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Either comment on the comparison between GT and pCars or don't.

What you will not do is attempt to turn the thread into a debate about if cross generation comparisons are valid.

They are and as you missed this part of the first post:

Edited by Mod (again): Comparisons across different platforms are permitted here at GT Planet, this thread is no exception. Do not drag the thread off topic by complaining that its unfair.

I'm just going to remind you of this part of the AUP:

You will, if asked by a representative of the forums, cease posting any content.

Doesn't the AUP also say this:

• You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

Anyway I find it hard to believe that something like PS3 or even older generations with a lot less compute power and memory lose out only better graphics and AI count regarding racing games. I wonder why SMS on something like PS3 or Wii U are not able to run the same tyre model that these newer consoles or PC run, after all if that statement is true then it should be possible to run the same as this is not a thing supposedly a new generation console affects, just graphics and AI count right?

No issues personally with cross generation comparisons but I think it is always good to have context. Interestingly graphics I think is something that GT6 holds up well regarding car model maximum graphics in-game as it seems probably only big racing game on consoles to use tessellation and with really high poly counts can still have amazing fidelity and to me better than pCARS on PC. Also real world tracks in GT6 look better than pCARS to me.

 

[Terronium-12]

The GT6/pCARS debate is valid no matter what because all we want is an awesome game, the machine it runs on is only a mean to achieve this. In the end who cares ? But physics and AI do consume CPU time so there is indeed a correlation between calculation power and what can be done, not only graphics-wise.
But that isn't all, it's also the devs' job to optimize their engines so the flaws aren't obvious. More power means less work needed to reach the same level but not that it is impossible to have decent or better results on an older console.

Now I don't want to be banned so I won't argue any further

Scaff isn't saying anything to the contrary, in fact he's agreeing that the debate is warranted across all facets.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Thinking about how events are run, I think GT6 is run better at the moment. Even though there are occasions where hacked cars are making it on leaderboard, there have been occasions where they have been deleted but occasions where they have remained which is not so perfect. PD seem to take cutting corners more seriously for me than SMS so far. pCARS seems to give benefit to cutting corners completely and may even give prizes for it. Don't know what will happen in current prize giving event, hopefully there is clarification if cutting corners is legit as long as the game allows it.

 

[David Talle]

Don't know what will happen in current prize giving event, hopefully there is clarification if cutting corners is legit as long as the game allows it.

I think the corner cutting penalties are yet to be improved, sometimes you receive undeserved ones, like when you're pushed wide in a corner and therefore gain no advantage (actually quite the opposite) but receive a 5s pen.
As if they encourage you to stick with your line and crash the other guy instead, couldn't be designed that way.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I think the corner cutting penalties are yet to be improved, sometimes you receive undeserved ones, like when you're pushed wide in a corner and therefore gain no advantage (actually quite the opposite) but receive a 5s pen.
As if they encourage you to stick with your line and crash the other guy instead, couldn't be designed that way.

They are still running a championship under current penalties and prize giving events, imagine GT Academy events allowing such things, there would be huge outrage if large corner cutting laps were rewarded as legit times but pCARS so far seems the case, the more ways you can exploit track limits where there are zero wheels on what one might consider track boundary going by their penalty system in other part of tracks, the more rewarded you will be. Still early days and I really hope they rectify it.

Also another annoying thing might be is if you have multiple accounts and do the fastest times, you might be also be only person rewarded it seems in their championship. Not something I consider very sporting. Seems on website they are changing multiple platform points stacking but think multiple accounts to deny others points could be possible still and might be something they have to resolve if it becomes an issue.

 

[FS7]

In Pcars it's possible to setup proper races offline with a balanced decent size grid, standing starts, mechanical damage, fuel/tire wear, penalties, and adjust AI difficulty, that alone puts Pcars way above GT6 in terms of racing experience & replay value. Pcars also has the advantage of having all cars & tracks available from the start in solo mode, meaning I don't have to spend my time grinding to unlock stuff, I can focus on racing the way I want.
GT6 is a good game to play in time trial after one goes through the tedious & boring process of acquiring the cars, but it doesn't have proper races offline, if I want to do proper races offline I have to go play something else.

 

[David Talle]

They are still running a championship under current penalties and prize giving events, imagine GT Academy events allowing such things, there would be huge outrage if large corner cutting laps were rewarded as legit times but pCARS so far seems the case, the more ways you can exploit track limits where there are zero wheels on what one might consider track boundary going by their penalty system in other part of tracks, the more rewarded you will be. Still early days and I really hope they rectify it.

Check the GTA subforum, it seems there actually are some kind of exploits available too.

In Pcars it's possible to setup proper races offline with a balanced decent size grid, standing starts, mechanical damage, fuel/tire wear, penalties, and adjust AI difficulty, that alone puts Pcars way above GT6 in terms of racing experience & replay value. Pcars also has the advantage of having all cars & tracks available from the start in solo mode, meaning I don't have to spend my time grinding to unlock stuff, I can focus on racing the way I want.
GT6 is a good game to play in time trial after one goes through the tedious & boring process of acquiring the cars, but it doesn't have proper races offline, if I want to do proper races offline I have to go play something else.

100% agree, I've waited for something similar in GT6 for 18 months. But there still things missing, like the possibility to choose which classes will run in multi class races (like LMP2/GT3) and not only GT3/GT4/GT5, P1/P2/P3, etc... And in class rankings too, like in career mode.

 

[Scaff]

Check the GTA subforum, it seems there actually are some kind of exploits available too.

I believe that if you quit and then re-enter the GTA you get more grip when you go back in, it seems to be quite a significant gain from what I can recall reading.

 

[Tornado]

Plus I'm pretty sure there was a year (2012?) where people were cutting corners and getting legit times. I think they had to reset the event multiple times.

 

[Scaff]

1. Both. As I said, if it's in GT you have to select the right tyres for the car else you have too much grip and none of those things will happen. I use a wheel and normally have to countersteer in some form on FR and RR cars from a standing start. FF cars don't tend to do it (from the ones I've used) but as you said, FF cars aren't represented well. They understeer and act correctly in all other circumstances. My dad, who's not a gamer and is a professional driver, has played GT6 on my setup and thought it felt authentic when driving at low and higher speeds but the only thing that was lacking was the g-forces on your body. If a none-gamer/real life driver thinks it's pretty accurate then it's good enough for me.

OK so here is a non FFB standing start in GT6, using a Lotus 97T, its not my video but reacts exactly the same as numerous ones I've put together before.



And here is a Lotus 98T in pCars



The difference in how the engine models the torque transfer to each tyre is quite clear. Its a simple test you can easily do, its best done with a controller as you can remove FFB from turning the wheel that way (after all if its modeled correctly it should occur with or without FFB). Red line the engine and either release the brake or dump the clutch, leave the steering alone totally. If it takes off straight and true with that much torque then its not being modeled, as you should get a torque bias to one side or the other resulting in rear wheel torque steer and a date with the armco.

I had the entire field getting stuck because of a single accident:
http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/the_dr_slump/slideshow/Project Cars

That almost resembles the chaos at Imola today during the F3 race, quite a mess.

 

[Furinkazen]

@Scaff @dr_slump when I figure out the PS4 XMB i'll get a pic of my 18 car pile up at Ste Devote caused by someone blocking me from pitting while I had broken steering

 

[dr_slump]

OK so here is a non FFB standing start in GT6, using a Lotus 97T, its not my video but reacts exactly the same as numerous ones I've put together before.

The video shows a Ford Focus from Project Cars...

 

[Scaff]

The video shows a Ford Focus from Project Cars...

Damn, will fix it in the morning.

 

[sirjim73]

Playing on PS4. I haven't had much time on the game yet so I will save my proper comparison for later.

So far I've only done some kart races in the career mode which are driving me nuts (but I have to get through the pain as I want that zero to hero award). To be fair that's mainly due to me being crap at driving karts in any driving game though the AI sideswipes can be a little irritating. I would say so far I've found the karts equally irritating in GT6 and CARS

I've also done the community events over and over and over and over again. First hour doing them - not added to leaderboard. Second hour - not added to leaderboard. Third hour - finally added times for Clio, mustang and m1 procar. Then I logged on today. ALL my leaderboard times are either deleted or not showing. Not impressed. I've never had any issues with GT6 leaderboards so CARS gets a negative from me on that for now.

For now I'm leaving the community events and focussing on single player career going forward, till they fix the leaderboards.

Most of the above is somewhat negative but I'm really looking forward to races in the career once I get past the karts. I must admit I'm keen to drive the classics especially the Escort and Cosworth. Will be back in a few weeks with more comparison.

 

[Terronium-12]

LOL, deleted. Now let's actually discuss and/or debate and not resort to utterly moronic quips.

 

[Scaff]

The video shows a Ford Focus from Project Cars...

All fixed.

And as someone provided a tantrum in place of a constructive reply and supporting videos, it looks like it will be up to me to provide them. Good job I don't have a problem with physics testing.

Doesn't the AUP also say this:

Yes and its not applicable in this situation.

Anyway I find it hard to believe that something like PS3 or even older generations with a lot less compute power and memory lose out only better graphics and AI count regarding racing games. I wonder why SMS on something like PS3 or Wii U are not able to run the same tyre model that these newer consoles or PC run, after all if that statement is true then it should be possible to run the same as this is not a thing supposedly a new generation console affects, just graphics and AI count right?

Which works on the premise that you have to take the entire title as a whole for comparisons and you can't look at single elements within those titles and compare them, which of course you can.

As such the AUP has not been broken and I hope that puts this one to bed.

No issues personally with cross generation comparisons but I think it is always good to have context. Interestingly graphics I think is something that GT6 holds up well regarding car model maximum graphics in-game as it seems probably only big racing game on consoles to use tessellation and with really high poly counts can still have amazing fidelity and to me better than pCARS on PC.

Context is always key, on that I would most certainly agree.

Also real world tracks in GT6 look better than pCARS to me.

Its a close call for me, but coming through the final complex at Brands as the sun sets in pCars still looks stunning enough for me.

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

I don't understand why hardware keeps coming up as a reason to not compare GT6 and Pcars. The OP poll asks how you feel about both games. For me, I read that as user experience. What do I enjoy/not enjoy about GT6? What do I enjoy/not enjoy about Pcars? My enjoyment is determined by gameplay and game design. Gameplay and game design are determined by the developers' decisions. Example: PD knew the PS3 capabilities and limitations and chose to create the Moon Rover content. Poor game design decision IMO. Could the time and resources have been spent on other areas? Better AI? More premium cars? Etc.

For me, the comparison is relevant because GT has been my standard bearer on PS platform. I have looked at other racers, but their previews and reviews did not meet my expectations for a racing game. Then came along Pcars. How did I know Pcars was coming? Because GT6 quickly became stale for me (user experience) and I looked at other forums on GTP. Fast forward and I have purchased Pcars. I don't regret my purchase, however I expect SMS to fix the bugs. If not, the bugs will lead to frustration that will eventually outweigh what I do enjoy about Pcars. Right now, it's way too soon for me to give up on Pcars. I use the controller and have no issues. To be fair, I did spend a lot of time optimizing it and that shouldn't have been necessary.

There have been discussions/polls about which game in the GT series is the best/your favorite. (GT4 for me.) Generation hardware doesn't appear as often in that debate.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

Im suspicious with regard to the way this thread gets bumped every so often. Not pointing fingers, just saying Im suspicious of some venturing from the Pcars sub forum into here.

 

[Scaff]

Im suspicious with regard to the way this thread gets bumped every so often. Not pointing fingers, just saying Im suspicious of some venturing from the Pcars sub forum into here.

And?

GT Planet is not a partisan site, people are not segregated in one part of it or the other and those who post more regularly in the pCars sub-forum are as entitled to come in here and post here.

It's neither suspicious or against the AUP, and as long as they are contributing to the discussion then they are free to continue to do so.

A nonsense post about 'suspicious' folk who may or may not prefer another title however adds nothing at all to the thread, as such you are closer to violating the AUP than they are. As such please do not drag the thread off topic again with your suspicions, if you think a post breaks the AUP, then use the report button.

 

[cjr3559]

Yeah my sentiments exactly. On GT all too often cars feel so much the same. They should feel different. And people can't expect to like how every car feels to drive like its real life counterpart. This is another reason why I'm bored of GT. Its so boring, theres no life or uniqueness to any car. GT doesn't capture the soul and characteristics of every car. This is why it's so off putting to me.

Hmm, they feel different to me. Are you comparing the duplicates everyone complains about or running everything on RS tires?

OK so here is a non FFB standing start in GT6, using a Lotus 97T, its not my video but reacts exactly the same as numerous ones I've put together before.



And here is a Lotus 98T in pCars



The difference in how the engine models the torque transfer to each tyre is quite clear. Its a simple test you can easily do, its best done with a controller as you can remove FFB from turning the wheel that way (after all if its modeled correctly it should occur with or without FFB). Red line the engine and either release the brake or dump the clutch, leave the steering alone totally. If it takes off straight and true with that much torque then its not being modeled, as you should get a torque bias to one side or the other resulting in rear wheel torque steer and a date with the armco.


That almost resembles the chaos at Imola today during the F3 race, quite a mess.

The starting gear in the GT6 example is 2nd vs. 1st on pCars. Also what are the driving settings in the examples? The only information I have is comfort hard tires. More info is needed to make a comparison.

 

[Tornado]

What is the info needed? Why is that info needed? What difference do you think the starting gear makes on a test primarily showing how torque is distributed for the suspension modeling?