The Unofficial GT6 VS Project Cars Debate Thread (Read the Rules!)

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Yes, do compile a video.

You'll have to give me a short while. I was just checking my recordings and they all came out at about 5fps after the first few seconds of each clip, my capture software is running like ass for some reason so I have to record it all again .

 

[eran0004]

You'll have to give me a short while. I was just checking my recordings and they all came out at about 5fps after the first few seconds of each clip, my capture software is running like ass for some reason so I have to record it all again .

I could let you borrow my phone, but it's not much better to be honest

It seems more like some sort of steering pull, rather then actual torque steer. Where you able to achieve these same results on SSRX with the same exact cars?

And how is that different from that Project Cars video? That wasn't recorded on SSRX either.

 

[ImaRobot]

And how is that different from that Project Cars video? That wasn't recorded on SSRX either.

I'll figure that out when I get the game on Friday As for now, I can wait for @Scaff tests, as he's been doing this on multiple games for years now.

Still, I know for sure that you have the flattest track available to you, so a test there should be able to give you some conclusive results.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I could let you borrow my phone, but it's not much better to be honest

I was tempted to just use my phone in the end but I finally managed to get it to record something properly, but I had to record pure raw data rather than on the fly compression which my card usually does. Meaning the files were huge and take forever to render, I just cut them down to the first few that I captured rather than the extensive collection I was originally putting together. It has launches in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, as well as a couple of launches in 3rd gear without hitting the limiter. All done with no aids, stock 97T, grip real on a variety of tracks.

 

[Scaff]

OK the comparison I was going to do was screwed by the fact the BMW Z4 GT3 comes out of the garage in pCars with tyres already up to temp, however @Lewis_Hamilton_ testing certainly seems to have shown that some sort of difference is in place here?

 

[eran0004]

OK the comparison I was going to do was screwed by the fact the BMW Z4 GT3 comes out of the garage in pCars with tyres already up to temp, however @Lewis_Hamilton_ testing certainly seems to have shown that some sort of difference is in place here?

It looks like the cars are perfectly symmetrical (left/right) so when the surface is completely level and the wheels are pointing exactly straight forward the weight balance is right at the middle, giving the same normal force on both sides of the car and no torque steer.

However, with a wheel you're never steering exactly straight forward, so there's always a slight weight balance shift to one side, providing more traction on that side and torque steering the car in the opposite direction. The same goes for tracks that aren't perfectly level.

 

[Scaff]

It looks like the cars are perfectly symmetrical (left/right) so when the surface is completely level and the wheels are pointing exactly straight forward the weight balance is right at the middle, giving the same normal force on both sides of the car and no torque steer.

However, with a wheel you're never steering exactly straight forward, so there's always a slight weight balance shift to one side, providing more traction on that side and torque steering the car in the opposite direction. The same goes for tracks that aren't perfectly level.

It may well be down to that, which would be an over simplification of data on PD's part, but I have also seen some of the data fields used in GT5 and GT6 (which I can't post here due to the method used to obtain them) and for a number of the suspension values only a front and rear value are held and/or calculated rather than holding/calculating values for each corner (which is an area both Enthusia and RBR were well ahead of the game on back on the PS2).

We know that pCars is dealing with each corner due to the ability to set asymmetrical set-ups, however its also worth noting that not every car is going to experience this, as if the torque at the driven wheels can't overcome the tractive force available at each contact patch and do so quickly enough then its not going to happen.

Its why high torque monsters like he Lotus are so good for testing it.

 

[eran0004]

It may well be down to that, which would be an over simplification of data on PD's part, but I have also seen some of the data fields used in GT5 and GT6 (which I can't post here due to the method used to obtain them) and for a number of the suspension values only a front and rear value are held and/or calculated rather than holding/calculating values for each corner (which is an area both Enthusia and RBR were well ahead of the game on back on the PS2).

We know that pCars is dealing with each corner due to the ability to set asymmetrical set-ups, however its also worth noting that not every car is going to experience this, as if the torque at the driven wheels can't overcome the tractive force available at each contact patch and do so quickly enough then its not going to happen.

Its why high torque monsters like he Lotus are so good for testing it.

That probably just means that they're sharing the same variables. Each corner is still calculated individually in the actual simulation.

 

[super_gt]

However, with a wheel you're never steering exactly straight forward, so there's always a slight weight balance shift to one side, providing more traction on that side and torque steering the car in the opposite direction. The same goes for tracks that aren't perfectly level.

Here is a torque steer test at the Nordschleife made with steering wheel and Force Feedback ON.
Stock,no AIDS,no ABS,real grip,99% rain,sports hard tires.
From standing start the car barely moves to the right,extremely easy to correct(I have to be dead to lose the rear end and crash)
After that flying start second gear 65 km/h and the car did not move at all.
If you think that this is realistic you are complete wrong.

Here is torque steer in real world:


And here is torque steer on wet:

 

[David Talle]

And here is torque steer on wet:

Wasn't it Kobayashi in the car ? Crashing on promotional day.

That probably just means that they're sharing the same variables.

I don't get the difference between "sharing same variables" and the fact the game makes calculation on front or rear as a whole. (genuine question)

 

[super_gt]

Wasn't it Kobayashi in the car ? Crashing on promotional day.

Yes
A Ferrari formula 1 car crashes during a show in Moscow in the wet. Driver was Kamui Kobayashi.

 

[ukfan758]

At least PCars has actual races and not single file, 1 kilometer apart car starts for chase the rabbit races like in GT6...

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

...yet on the same page:





That's certainly a selective comparison: "the entire game aside, GT6 is better."

Don't know what else you expected from NixxxoN. He loops back on himself more times than Charlotte Motor Speedway during the Coke 600.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

And I'm suspicious of you never having addressed the following:

Well, I will participate in a debate like this one when Im convinced everyone in such a debate is a fan and not a viral marketer for any company, be it PD or SMS. Im not pointing fingers at anyone, Im not insinuating anyone here could be a viral marketer etc.
Im just stating that I will participate in a debate when Im convinced we're all fans.
In any case, Im replying now just to answer why I havnt replied, I look foward to having a real debate in the GT7 vs PCars thread when it does eventually show up.

For now though, Ive changed my vote , Pcars isnt a terrible game, it does have many merits, some better than GT, so well done Slightly Mad Studios.

PCars `> GT in track selection. Very nice list from what Ive seen on Live From Playstation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll just leave this here:

Project CARS Review: Is It the Most Realistic Racing Game Ever? by Alex Lloyd

During my 21-year spell as a race car driver, I’ve driven many of the machines on offer in Project CARS. Little open wheel Formula Fords at a pokey Oulton Park racetrack in northern England? Sure. How about a Formula One car at Silverstone? I still count my blessings on that one.. A vintage American muscle car? A German DTM touring car? A Formula 3 open wheeler? An Audi R8 GT3?

I’ve been fortunate enough to drive them all. Point is, I know how the cars and tracks "should" feel from behind the wheel. And compared to other console games like Forza and GT6, in terms of real life driving dynamics, Project CARS wins hands down. It also scores higher than both those alternatives in terms of gameplay.

To me, as a racer at heart, Project CARS is every bit the game I’d hoped it would be — and it blows Forza or GT6 out of the water. If you’re more of an arcade gamer when it comes to racing, it may be a bit too hardcore.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I went with both are cool. Given the poll choices that seems to be the best answer.

I enjoyed playing both. GT has things that appeal to me which are not in PCars and PCars has things that are not in GT.

 

[mr_serious]

I'll just leave this here:

Project CARS Review: Is It the Most Realistic Racing Game Ever? by Alex Lloyd

@ColouredBadger should read that review.

 

[Scaff]

I've just deleted a number of posts and handed out warnings for what was clear flame-bait.

Posting simply to try and start a flame war is simply not acceptable.

 

[eran0004]

Here is a torque steer test at the Nordschleife made with steering wheel and Force Feedback ON.
Stock,no AIDS,no ABS,real grip,99% rain,sports hard tires.
From standing start the car barely moves to the right,extremely easy to correct(I have to be dead to lose the rear end and crash)
After that flying start second gear 65 km/h and the car did not move at all.
If you think that this is realistic you are complete wrong.

I never claimed that torque steer made the cars difficult to drive. If that's what you think you are completely wrong. On the contrary, it's very easy to correct. But that doesn't mean that there is no torque steer.

I don't get the difference between "sharing same variables" and the fact the game makes calculation on front or rear as a whole. (genuine question)

You can have two different functions (or two different instances of the same function) calling the same variables. In Python (because that's the only programming language I know) it may look like this:

## This is a function. It's using variables a, b and c to calculate d:

def my_function (a, b, c):
     d = a * b * c
     return d

## These are variables:

x = 10.0
y = 8.0
z = 0.6

## And these are statements calculating the values for left and right by calling my_function(a, b, c) and defining its a, b and c as the variables x, y and z (or 1-z) :

left = my_function (x, y, z)
right = my_function (x, y, 1-z)

print("Left: %.1f; right: %.1f." %(left, right))

Left: 48.0; right: 32.0.

^ That's the output of the code

So the same function was called twice, the same variables were called twice. The only difference is that in the second statement I assigned c as 1-z, and that's enough to give individual outputs for "left" and "right". Same variables, same function, individual statements, individual outcome.

I don't know if that was readable or not. But if the car is symmetrical between the left and the right side, there's no need to have a variable for the left ride height and the right ride height. It's enough to just have a single variable for ride height.

Programming is kind of like writing a Haiku, you'd want to say as much as possible while using as few words as possible. Less is more

 

[Scaff]

I don't know if that was readable or not. But if the car is symmetrical between the left and the right side, there's no need to have a variable for the left ride height and the right ride height. It's enough to just have a single variable for ride height.

And in that lies part of the problem. No car, once you add fluids and a driver is.

 

[eran0004]

And in that lies part of the problem. No car, once you add fluids and a driver is.

Indeed, that's a problem. But it's only noticeable when you're racing on perfectly even tracks with the wheels pointing perfectly straight forward, because only then is the balance perfectly dead center.

Edit: Also, that was referring to suspension settings alone. Unequally distributed weight is another thing, you can implement that without having to use individual variables for the left and the right suspensions.

The z variable in the example above could represent the weight distribution, for instance. With 0.5 being perfectly centered, 1.0 being all weight on the left side and 0.0 being all weight on the right side.

 

[VBR]

I'll just leave this here:

Project CARS Review: Is It the Most Realistic Racing Game Ever? by Alex Lloyd

From the same review;

I found the older cars, like the Ford Escort Mk1, to be less realistic when behind the wheel, becoming overly wallow-y and unpredictable. But the open-wheel machines and modern sports cars are pretty much bang on — with the exception that the braking remains less forceful than in real life; it’s as if the Formula 1-equivalent in the game is using steel brakes from a Ford Focus.

 

[synon]

I'll just leave this here:

Project CARS Review: Is It the Most Realistic Racing Game Ever? by Alex Lloyd

He also said the braking in Pcars is unrealistic, which is kind of a major element in a motor-racing simulation.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

I don't understand why hardware keeps coming up as a reason to not compare GT6 and Pcars. The OP poll asks how you feel about both games. For me, I read that as user experience.

If the user experience is not determined by the power of a platform, why did SMS cancel their plans to release Pcars on PS3/Xbox360?

Indeed, that's a problem. But it's only noticeable when you're racing on perfectly even tracks with the wheels pointing perfectly straight forward, because only then is the balance perfectly dead center.

Edit: Also, that was referring to suspension settings alone. Unequally distributed weight is another thing, you can implement that without having to use individual variables for the left and the right suspensions.

The z variable in the example above could represent the weight distribution, for instance. With 0.5 being perfectly centered, 1.0 being all weight on the left side and 0.0 being all weight on the right side.

Yes, that's probably also how ballast weight front/rear is stored.

 

[eran0004]

If the user experience is not determined by the power of a platform, why did SMS cancel their plans to release Pcars on PS3/Xbox360?

I think there are different levels to user experience. Graphics is probably the most obvious difference, and that's one part of the user experience.

As for the physics? Well, in theory a physics engine is more precise the faster it runs (with reality "running" at infinite resolution). Basically, for every tic of the physics engine, it's checking what's going on. If it can check what's going on 100 times per second it will be more precise than if it can only check what's going on 50 times per second.

Galileo Galilei described this a couple of centuries ago

Look at this figure: The curve represents the reality, which runs at infinite resolution. The bars represents the simulated reality in the physics engine. The blue bars (behind the green bars) represents a physics engine running at 50 tics per second. The green bars represents a physics engine running at 100 tics per second.

​

The green bars follow the curve closer than the blue bars, because it can check the values more often.

So in theory, the better the hardware the higher resolution you can run the physics at. Of course, I don't know at what rate the physics engines of either of these games are running, but in theory this could be a possible difference between them.

 

[Scaff]

Indeed, that's a problem. But it's only noticeable when you're racing on perfectly even tracks with the wheels pointing perfectly straight forward, because only then is the balance perfectly dead center.

Edit: Also, that was referring to suspension settings alone. Unequally distributed weight is another thing, you can implement that without having to use individual variables for the left and the right suspensions.

The z variable in the example above could represent the weight distribution, for instance. With 0.5 being perfectly centered, 1.0 being all weight on the left side and 0.0 being all weight on the right side.

Which is why the problem also only manifests itself from a standstill (and I suspect the tyre model also plays a factor here as well - tyre models often fall apart at standstill); its something I suspect that PD are well aware of given the very rare nature of standing starts in both GT5 and GT6.

He also said the braking in Pcars is unrealistic, which is kind of a major element in a motor-racing simulation.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

Which could also then be applied to your own comment as well

Not sim on any platform is perfect, far from it; and given that we are looking at a comparison between two sims in this thread its to be expected that neither is 100% perfect.

As such I would take more from the following from the article.....

"And compared to other console games like Forza and GT6, in terms of real life driving dynamics, Project CARS wins hands down"

and

"To me, as a racer at heart, Project CARS is every bit the game I’d hoped it would be — and it blows Forza or GT6 out of the water."

....in terms of a comparison that applies to this topic.

If the user experience is not determined by the power of a platform, why did SMS cancel their plans to release Pcars on PS3/Xbox360?

I would suspect that to get the tick rate needed to run the physics at an acceptable level they would have had to compromise on too many other areas of the title (cars on track, weather, ToD, etc) to make it viable to sell alongside the PC/PS4/XB1 versions.

 

[David Talle]

At least PCars has actual races and not single file, 1 kilometer apart car starts for chase the rabbit races like in GT6...

Yeah and it overtakes you cutting chicanes, pushes you off track in wheel to wheel fights, bumps your rear in braking zones, not to mention poor multiclass racing skills...
Yeah it sure is better but there's room for A LOT of improvement.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah and it overtakes you cutting chicanes, pushes you off track in wheel to wheel fights, bumps your rear in braking zones, not to mention poor multiclass racing skills...
Yeah it sure is better but there's room for A LOT of improvement.

I agree it needs improvement (well aside from within a Touring car class - it fits that perfectly), but I would still take it over GT's AI any day of the week.

 

[Johnnypenso]

From the same review;

He also said the braking in Pcars is unrealistic, which is kind of a major element in a motor-racing simulation.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

The point isn't that the game is perfect, every game has flaws, some more than others obviously. PCars is full of bugs and glitches at this point. But underneath it all beats the heart of a true racer, and someone with 20+ years of experience thinks this:

Point is, I know how the cars and tracks"should" feel from behind the wheel. And compared to other console games like Forza and GT6, in terms of real life driving dynamics, Project CARS wins hands down. It also scores higher than both those alternatives in terms of gameplay.

One can disagree of course, but it's interesting to note that he's not a gaming journalist first and foremost, he is a race car driver who happens to also be a journalist, so his opinion should carry a little more weight in terms of how realistic the game/cars feel and behave than someone who writes or plays games for a living. People often say, "how can we judge the accuracy of any car in any game if we haven't driven it". He has.

 

[David Talle]

I agree it needs improvement (well aside from within a Touring car class - it fits that perfectly), but I would still take it over GT's AI any day of the week.

Yeah never said the contrary but sometimes it just feels like you're playing online in a random lobby (the bad ones).

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

User experience = what I like and what I want = gameplay and game design. I've only had GT game for the PS platform, and now I have pCARS. As I said, the comparison is relevant to me because pCARS has provided competition to GT on the PS platform. I didn't purchase Driveclub, The Crew or Shift 2. This direct competition is the reason I assume why this thread exists here as well as on pCARS subforum. I haven't seen a lively debate of GT6 vs Driveclub or GT6 vs Shift 2 or pCARS vs Driveclub.

Please excuse me if I don't respond again. I'll be busy playing pCARS. (I don't completely hate GT6. If PD releases track update... ahem, Seattle... and course creator, I'll hop back on GT6 to check it out.)