Toyota planning a new RWD Coupe?

[YSSMAN]

The LF-A took a while to get off its feet, but it's getting there. I'm sure the FT-HS will, too. Cars don't just come into production after being at the Auto Show for 1 year. Surprisingly, the Camaro has actually taken a few years to come out. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if its cloned into a Trans Am later on....

Actually I'd agree that the Camaro has taken a bit longer than most of us had predicted. Of course, killing and reviving the Zeta chassis twice hasn't helped the development, furthermore that Holden has enough on their plate already in terms of helping with development... Truthfully its part of the reason why Opel is handling the Alpha chassis, I believe... Holden is just too buy right now.

@ The Firebird: It won't happen. GM has already said it probably won't happen. They don't want a smaller RWD coupe at Pontiac, as that spot will be left open for the Alpha G5 Coupe. Their big-guy will be the GTO, I guarantee it, but the Holden Monaro has to show up first.

So? Both vehicles are still clones that you linked to. OH wait, one's just a clone with an actual roof. Sorry.

So, they beat 'em. Doesn't mean they'll actually be any better because at least Toyota is sitting in Japan doing numerous tests to ensure performance while GM sit in Detroit and think...

Clones of what? GM North America developed the Kappa chassis here in the US (took inspiration from the Y-body), did extensive tuning in Europe and the US, and then sold it as a Pontiac and then a Saturn/Opel. Its the first all-American car I can think of GM actually pushing into Europe with so many people liking since the Corvette...

As for Toyota "working on it," they've been "working on it" for how many years now? Nothing has come of it other than a few sketches and rumors every couple of months... The difference is that GM is doing it, albeit with some things we already have.

I don't have a problem with it as long as GM gets the car to us, for a good price, and packs in enough performance to match. The extra power, better chassis tune, and overall size should make it a winner for quite a few people. Then again, people thought the same for the Z4 Coupe...

 

[Kent]

The LF-A took a while to get off its feet, but it's getting there. I'm sure the FT-HS will, too. Cars don't just come into production after being at the Auto Show for 1 year. Surprisingly, the Camaro has actually taken a few years to come out. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if its cloned into a Trans Am later on....


So? Both vehicles are still clones that you linked to. OH wait, one's just a clone with an actual roof. Sorry.

So, they beat 'em. Doesn't mean they'll actually be any better because at least Toyota is sitting in Japan doing numerous tests to ensure performance while GM sit in Detroit and think,
"Hey guys, what can we do next?"
"An entirely new sports car, Bob?"
"Nah. Let's clone the Saturn Aura and call it a Chevrolet Solar. Then 2 months later, we'll call it a Pontiac Sun."

... I don't know about all that...
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Toyota fan, I've owned two. 👍 👍
However, I see potential in the US.
My search for a new car @ $15,000 took me straight to the Cobalt and I still look at the Cobalt as a great car (although I've come to see that the G6 is the greater car).
With my views of the Cobalt in mind, I point to this recent RWD G5 coupe... Not sure if it will really go through but as the story goes for now- that's awesome. 👍

So GM is trying... Just like Toyota is trying.
I'd love to see a RWD Scion TC.

If either of those cars come out to the public for under 25,000 in some form I would be very excited. 👍
I say give a company credit when it deserves it (regardless the brand).

I'm not so sure on that... That may be a difference of market between states like California and New York versus that of Ohio or Michigan. A good number of cars sold here in Grand Rapids are in fact stripper models, and while dealers often stock-up on fully-loaded or at the very least well-equipped models, the core customers usually don't ask for more than ABS, all of the airbags, and usually a set of alloy wheels.

I can confirm that most of the Malibu and Impala models at the local Chevrolet dealers are usually pretty "average" models by comparison to similar models at Toyota or Honda. I would assume that is because people who are buying the Japanese cars here are more likely to spend the extra money than those who are not.

I think you're right about differences being regional... Only to an extent. Rather, I think it is dealership to dealership in a buisness sense.
Dealers only want to buy what they can sell and each dealer uses a plan (or some form of strategy) to implement the sales tactics that result in a purchase.

Also, dealers of all kinds like to have that "spec" car laying around (although my local scion couldn't sell me on the "spec" TC ).

 

[McLaren]

Clones of what? GM North America developed the Kappa chassis here in the US (took inspiration from the Y-body), did extensive tuning in Europe and the US, and then sold it as a Pontiac and then a Saturn/Opel. Its the first all-American car I can think of GM actually pushing into Europe with so many people liking since the Corvette...

Clones of what? What do you think? A Cobalt and a Saturn Sky. This all GM ever does. Clones vehicles, and then maybe introduce a new vehicle ever 5 years....They clone a car, and call it brand new. They'll do it with the G8 even though the car's been around the Australians for a while.

As for Toyota "working on it," they've been "working on it" for how many years now? Nothing has come of it other than a few sketches and rumors every couple of months... The difference is that GM is doing it, albeit with some things we already have.

The LF-A isn't a sketch, it's been seen. The FT-HS was just shown as a concept. It's not instantly going to be seen at Nurburgring the next month.

GM isn't doing anything though besides the new Camaro. The new G8? New Corvette? New Solstice coupe? New G5? Those aren't new. We've seen them before! That's all GM will ever do. Clone a car, call it new, and maybe release a BRAND NEW model every 5-6 years.

Like I said, it's pretty easy to "do something" when you've done it 2 d*mn times before.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I think if Toyota makes it, they shoudl leave it in Japan. Considering it's supposed to be a successor to the ae-86, they are doing this for more than money.

If they bring it here, an affordable rwd car, the ricers/drifterz will cause so much trouble that they will outlaw the modification of a car.

 

[YSSMAN]

Clones of what? What do you think? A Cobalt and a Saturn Sky. This all GM ever does. Clones vehicles, and then maybe introduce a new vehicle ever 5 years....They clone a car, and call it brand new. They'll do it with the G8 even though the car's been around the Australians for a while.

Which cars are we talking about here? The Cobalt or the Sky? I was talking about the Kappa cars strictly, by which there wasn't necessarily a "cloning," as the Sky/GT performs quite differently than the Solstice (that preceded it).

The Cobalt was its own car, and while it was based on the Delta chassis that first showed up in the Saturn ION, it was highly re-tooled, and re-introduced as a Chevy. Only the G5 was a "clone," but even then it offers many more standard features that I'd consider better than that of the Cobalt.

As for the G8, it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. We haven't had a car like that from GM in the US for quite a long time, and quite frankly, thats a clever use of their Global Engineering efforts. More on that in a minute...

The LF-A isn't a sketch, it's been seen. The FT-HS was just shown as a concept. It's not instantly going to be seen at Nurburgring the next month.

I was talking about the new "AE86-II," as you know I've been a regular speaker and updater in the LF-A thread. I'm well aware of its existence, and even have photographs or a prototype model from a trip to Chicago...

GM isn't doing anything though besides the new Camaro. The new G8? New Corvette? New Solstice coupe? New G5? Those aren't new. We've seen them before! That's all GM will ever do. Clone a car, call it new, and maybe release a BRAND NEW model every 5-6 years.

Like I said, it's pretty easy to "do something" when you've done it 2 d*mn times before.

The big difference with the way that GM is doing things is that they are using their global engineering efforts to utilize the best bits from North America, Europe, Asia and Australia to make the best cars possible for consumers. This is why we're seeing the Astra *finally* coming to the US as a Saturn, the Commodore (plus the Monaro, and Torana) *finally* coming to the US as a Pontiac, etc.

Still, I'm slightly confused by the point. You do realize that the G5 (and G6) is moving to the Alpha RWD chassis, right? These models are being co-developed between GM North America, Holden, and Opel (project being lead by Opel) to bring the fight to the BMW 1-series and 3-series, and I'd call that forward advancement. The G8, while nothing new in Australia, is clearly something new in the United States, so why not bring it here? Sure, they'll throw a Chevy badge on it with a de-tuned suspension and call it an Impala, and Buick is likely to get a long-wheelbase version with a more cushy suspension as well...

Build cars customers demand, and you sell them. People want RWD sedans, coupes, and roadsters, and GM is meeting those demands. I could care less if the Kappa chassis took influence from the Corvette's Y-Body (still one of the best in the business), I could care less if the Alpha chassis is a shrunken version of the Zeta chassis... All that matters is that they build the cars that I want.

Toyota has a growing problem that GM had once suffered from, too many region-specific models. GM figured it out a few years ago that its more cost effective to get everything down to a few different chassis and then make the cars a bit different for every company in every region to keep them moving.

 

[TopHat]

If they bring it here, an affordable rwd car, the ricers/drifterz will cause so much trouble that they will outlaw the modification of a car.

Which is technically a violation of your freedom of expression.

EDIT: 4,000 posts!

 

[foamy_302]

yay mini toyo funbox. lol i can't wait.

 

[JohnBM01]

I am fond of drifting. You know this car will have that marketability to younger audiences. It's described as controlled chaos. The ones who drift best have amazing car control. But let's not get into the topic of "ricing." Maybe Toyota just wants to offer a performance compact. Or maybe Toyota sees it more as a economy car with RWD. Of course, I usually think sports car with almost ANY RWD car. And if it ends up this new-age AE86 ends up being a drifter favorite, then so be it. People loved the latesr Mustang with its old school styling and took it to the drag strip. Much like with the Civic, don't automatically assume that people are going to want to modify this new-age AE86 to incredulous degrees to the point where they get annoying to see every day. Let's let the car make some noise here in the States before we think aftermarket.

As an off-topic question, do you think this new RWD coupe could possibly lead to perhaps a RWD compact coupe for Scion, perhaps? Think it would happen? Maybe a RWD Scion tC?

 

[Onikaze]

I don't see a RWD Toyota.

I could see a RWD Scion rD or something.

 

[Onikaze]

If it wasn't for Scion, I would have no hope of seeing this here.

As it is, I'm expecting this over here as a Scion before long.

 

[McLaren]

Which cars are we talking about here? The Cobalt or the Sky? I was talking about the Kappa cars strictly, by which there wasn't necessarily a "cloning," as the Sky/GT performs quite differently than the Solstice (that preceded it).

Both. GM has no creativity. Instead of creating a brand new car, they keep the same design, edit it some, and change the performance to match the brand.

The Cobalt was its own car, and while it was based on the Delta chassis that first showed up in the Saturn ION, it was highly re-tooled, and re-introduced as a Chevy. Only the G5 was a "clone," but even then it offers many more standard features that I'd consider better than that of the Cobalt.

And that's only difference. "OMG, I get leather seats, and all these new stuff."

That's all they do. Clone it, edit it, add something they could have added to the original car. GM has no creativity.

I was talking about the new "AE86-II," as you know I've been a regular speaker and updater in the LF-A thread. I'm well aware of its existence, and even have photographs or a prototype model from a trip to Chicago...

So, you're expecting a full blown Concept just a few days after Toyota announce the idea? That's good thinking there. Again, Toyota actually spends time with their ideas. They're not continuously cloning every car they have.

Build cars customers demand, and you sell them. People want RWD sedans, coupes, and roadsters, and GM is meeting those demands. I could care less if the Kappa chassis took influence from the Corvette's Y-Body (still one of the best in the business), I could care less if the Alpha chassis is a shrunken version of the Zeta chassis... All that matters is that they build the cars that I want.

Meeting what customers demand? By doing it the cheapest way possible? Like, instead of building a brand new RWD car that could really re-spark the Pontiac image, they just adopt a year old car and call it new?

I don't know what kind of folks want the same car over and over with a different front end.

Toyota has a growing problem that GM had once suffered from, too many region-specific models. GM figured it out a few years ago that its more cost effective to get everything down to a few different chassis and then make the cars a bit different for every company in every region to keep them moving.

Toyota has a problem? I don't think so. Build quality maybe, but hardly region-specific models. GM finds it cost effective because it's a cheap way to offer cars. Toyota does clone cars, yes, but they do it in a smart way offering 1 model in Japan, and one in the U.S.

I mean, I've never seen a company clone so many of its models and call them different. Different platform? Big deal. You're just offering me the same car, with a higher price tag just because it performs a a bit different and comes with a few more "fancier" options. But even in stock form, the Pontiac G5 is just $1,000 more. Why? Because it's RWD? Or because it's Pontiac? Both cars are 148Bhp stock, and the options are pretty much the same, even the colors. There's absolutely no difference besides the drivetrain.

 

[V1P3R]

Ugh... If Toyota does bring back the 86 and the current pics are what it will look like I'd rather they pass... put some effort into it. geez. It looks like a tC with a celica rear or a civic coupe.

IS-F will cost $50,000 + 👎

 

[TopHat]

Both. GM has no creativity. Instead of creating a brand new car, they keep the same design, edit it some, and change the performance to match the brand.

You mean like pretty much every automaker EVER?

And that's only difference. "OMG, I get leather seats, and all these new stuff."

Thats two.

That's all they do. Clone it, edit it, add something they could have added to the original car. GM has no creativity.

Hmmm..... If they added everything to the Chevrolet that's on the new Cadillac, would you pay for a 24K dollar Cobalt? Or a 24K dollar Cadillac?

So, you're expecting a full blown Concept just a few days after Toyota announce the idea? That's good thinking there. Again, Toyota actually spends time with their ideas. They're not continuously cloning every car they have.

Toyota has been promising a RWD sports coupe for years. GM doesn't make promises, it makes cars.

Meeting what customers demand? By doing it the cheapest way possible? Like, instead of building a brand new RWD car that could really re-spark the Pontiac image, they just adopt a year old car and call it new?

You show me ONE automaker that trots out a new design every year.

I don't know what kind of folks want the same car over and over with a different front end.

Its a prestige thing.

Toyota has a problem? I don't think so. Build quality maybe,

Build quality is falling at an alarming rate in Toyota products. My grandmother has a 98 camry with better, softer plastics than the new one. Which coincidentally was the last good generation of Camry.

but hardly region-specific models.
*SNIP* Toyota does clone cars, yes, but they do it in a smart way offering 1 model in Japan, and one in the U.S.

Hmmm.... Out of the 11 Toyotas that are availabe in the UK, only 5 are offered here. They are the Yaris, the Tacoma, the Prius, the RAV4, and the Land Cruiser, and one Lexus, the GX470.

Few of the models in Japan are available here. Also, DWA, the toyota bB isn't really a clone of the xB anymore.

Toyota Australia has its own sedan, the Aurion too.

Soon Toyota is going to be in the same hole GM was.

GM finds it cost effective because it's a cheap way to offer cars.

💡

I mean, I've never seen a company clone so many of its models and call them different.

So where have you been all these years?

Different platform? Big deal.

You're just offering me the same car, with a higher price tag just because it performs a a bit different and comes with a few more "fancier" options. But even in stock form, the Pontiac G5 is just $1,000 more. Why? Because it's RWD? Or because it's Pontiac?

You just answered that question for me, because of performance and fancier options.

Both cars are 148Bhp stock, and the options are pretty much the same, even the colors. There's absolutely no difference besides the drivetrain.

Nope, there is no difference except for some performance upgrades and cosmetic differences.

 

[TopHat]

EDIT: Ok why is Onikaze's post appearing under this?

 

[vladimir]

it should be more boxy to make it more true to the original.

 

[Jim Prower]

The 1.5L engine spec is a little dissappointing, as it'd be short on power, in the U.S. market, at least. Then again, the IS-F shows Toyota is still willing to make -GE engines, and, with such low weight, getting the 180HP 2ZZ-GE (Celica, Elise, Exige) in there would be more than enough motivation...

 

[Azuremen]

Yay for the forum bugging out, though why Oni had to post twice confuses me, since he basically said the same thing in the other thread.

They probably will offer a light turbo option on that 1.5L, much like the Turbo Vitz

And Top hat, Oni's posts are appearing below because they are time stamped later then ours, despite being posted earlier... probably a side effect from the moving of the forum.

 

[YSSMAN]

Both. GM has no creativity. Instead of creating a brand new car, they keep the same design, edit it some, and change the performance to match the brand... And that's only difference. "OMG, I get leather seats, and all these new stuff."... That's all they do. Clone it, edit it, add something they could have added to the original car. GM has no creativity.

When was the last time Toyota was actually creative with anything sold in the United States? The MR-S and Celica are dead, and as far as I'm concerned, none of their products offer anything more than the fact that they are a Toyota, and that people age 50+ will buy them.

So, you're expecting a full blown Concept just a few days after Toyota announce the idea? That's good thinking there. Again, Toyota actually spends time with their ideas. They're not continuously cloning every car they have.

AFAIK, Toyota hasn't said anything "official" about the car, its just one more rumor that goes flying around the internet, again, for the fifth or sixth time in 2007 alone.

Meeting what customers demand? By doing it the cheapest way possible? Like, instead of building a brand new RWD car that could really re-spark the Pontiac image, they just adopt a year old car and call it new?

Why would GM need to develop an entirely new RWD architecture for the US market for their US-branded cars when they already have a great chassis co-developed between GM North America and Holden? If you're referring to the fact that they pretty much put a few Pontiac-specific pieces on the Commodore, I can understand your argument, but why would it matter? We didn't have the Commodore in the US, so bringing it here as a Pontiac makes NO DIFFERENCE, as (most) people didn't know the Commodore existed at all.

Once the G8 is on sale and then GM offers up the Impala, a Chevy-skinned version of the G8 without the sportier suspension, it still wouldn't matter. By days end, the car has a different attitude, Chevrolet-specific style, and presumably a cheaper price as well. Buick will do the same thing, but add to the wheelbase, and pack in more luxury. Furthermore, if reports are true, Cadillac may use the Zeta chassis for the next STS or DTS too. As long as the cars look, act, and drive differently, only people "in the know" will have any knowledge of whats going on.

I don't know what kind of folks want the same car over and over with a different front end.

Ask Toyota how it goes for them. They've managed to sell plenty of Camrys as ES350s, Highlanders as RX350s, 4Runners as GX470s, and Land Crusiers as LX470s. But wait, its Toyota, so nobody complains...

Toyota has a problem? I don't think so. Build quality maybe, but hardly region-specific models. GM finds it cost effective because it's a cheap way to offer cars. Toyota does clone cars, yes, but they do it in a smart way offering 1 model in Japan, and one in the U.S.

See Top Hat's post.

I mean, I've never seen a company clone so many of its models and call them different. Different platform? Big deal. You're just offering me the same car, with a higher price tag just because it performs a a bit different and comes with a few more "fancier" options. But even in stock form, the Pontiac G5 is just $1,000 more. Why? Because it's RWD? Or because it's Pontiac? Both cars are 148Bhp stock, and the options are pretty much the same, even the colors. There's absolutely no difference besides the drivetrain.

I must note, again, that the G5 isn't RWD yet. It won't be for another two or so years. It will be bigger, between the size of a 1-series and a 3-series, and the lowest-spec engine (assuming GM offers an I4 model) would be the 174 BHP matched (presumably) to a six-speed automatic.

I'd agree that the differences between the G5 and the Cobalt Coupe are minimal in most cases, but I'd likely spend the extra money on the base G5 (similar to the Cobalt Coupe LT) for the sportier suspension, nicer-looking interior, and arguably a better-looking exterior (depends on model trims).

...But thats all a moot point anyway, because smart people would just buy a Saturn Astra...

The "new" GM is getting away from the way things were handled in the past, so really your only concerns are going to have to be having a Holden sold as a Pontiac, an Opel sold as a Saturn, and Chevrolet picking up a few basic structures while still making their own car. Quite honestly, does it really matter?

Car companies have been sharing platforms, engines, transmissions, pannels, etc between cars for decades on end. By your train of thought you should have a problem with Audi "stealing" the Gallardo, Porsche "stealing" the Touareg, Acura "stealing" the CR-V, and Jaguar "stealing" the Mondeo.

 

[McLaren]

You mean like pretty much every automaker EVER?

Really? So um, show me where Ferrari has the F430, 599 GTB, & 612 under someone else's name multiple times. How about Porsche? I don't see them marketing the 911 body under 4 companies. Only the Cayenne. Lamborghini's Gallardo and Audi's R8 are not technically the same, but even then, at least the design's are different and there's enough to warrant the cost.

Nobody but American companies like to offer 1 model under 5 different manufactuers with only subtle differences. Quite a few around the world might do it in 2 or 3, but certainly not nearly everything they own.

Hmmm..... If they added everything to the Chevrolet that's on the new Cadillac, would you pay for a 24K dollar Cobalt? Or a 24K dollar Cadillac?

Except if they're the same, you won't pay $24K for the Cadillac. You'll pay $30K. GM has this idea Cadillac's name is good enough a reason for the higher price, i.e. the XLR and Escalades.

Toyota has been promising a RWD sports coupe for years. GM doesn't make promises, it makes cars.

Again, very easy when you've done it 2 times before under someone else's name.

When was the last time GM actually made a "brand new" RWD sports car? The Z07 doesn't count. All it is another variation of the Corvette that's been on the market for half a decade now. The G8? Had it in Australia under someone else's name for years. The G5? We've had here when Cobalt debuted.

You show me ONE automaker that trots out a new design every year.

Well, not counting the various concepts I see from everyone else besides GM (imagine that). GM debuting a new design at an autoshow still is long and far compared to anyone because they're too busy making your Impala into a Pontiac/Cadillac/Saturn and calling it "New for 2008!" That's not new. I've had the car in my driveway for years.

Build quality is falling at an alarming rate in Toyota products. My grandmother has a 98 camry with better, softer plastics than the new one. Which coincidentally was the last good generation of Camry.

And are they not addressing it? Maybe that's why they're not marketing their same cars over and over. They're too busy addressing issues.

Soon Toyota is going to be in the same hole GM was.

Obviously not for a company that is becoming the #1 manufacturer.

How about that? They usually only clone their cars once, either under Scion or Lexus while GM has 11 companies (which are nearly all clones), and yet Toyota manages to outsell them. I wonder if that's due to offering good cars for a good price, instead of the same model 4 times around the same prices forcing you to choose between purposely forced packages.

💡

Really? That's a good idea? To build the same car without improving the build quality? To force me to spend an extra $5,000 for more options and still have the same quality as the cheaper car? That's genius. They sound just like the Chinese.

So where have you been all these years?

Watching GM market your Suburban in 5 different ways.

You just answered that question for me, because of performance and fancier options.

Except the fancier options aren't all that fancier. If I wanted the colors and options of a Cobalt, I'll BUY the Cobalt and just give it some after market performance instead of paying an extra $3K for the same stuff in a new skin.

 

[McLaren]

When was the last time Toyota was actually creative with anything sold in the United States? The MR-S and Celica are dead, and as far as I'm concerned, none of their products offer anything more than the fact that they are a Toyota, and that people age 50+ will buy them.

Hmm, at least they're trying with Scion by offering a wide range of options.

AFAIK, Toyota hasn't said anything "official" about the car, its just one more rumor that goes flying around the internet, again, for the fifth or sixth time in 2007 alone.

Ok, so 2 RWDs are being looked at. 1's confirmed, the other's too soon. Either way, 1 of the 2 is going to make it, and is totally new. Where's GM's brand new car never before seen? The Camaro is pretty much a revival. New body, same name though.

Why would GM need to develop an entirely new RWD architecture for the US market for their US-branded cars when they already have a great chassis co-developed between GM North America and Holden? If you're referring to the fact that they pretty much put a few Pontiac-specific pieces on the Commodore, I can understand your argument, but why would it matter? We didn't have the Commodore in the US, so bringing it here as a Pontiac makes NO DIFFERENCE, as (most) people didn't know the Commodore existed at all.

Wow, ok. ONE car is new. Here though.

Once the G8 is on sale and then GM offers up the Impala, a Chevy-skinned version of the G8 without the sportier suspension, it still wouldn't matter. By days end, the car has a different attitude, Chevrolet-specific style, and presumably a cheaper price as well. Buick will do the same thing, but add to the wheelbase, and pack in more luxury. Furthermore, if reports are true, Cadillac may use the Zeta chassis for the next STS or DTS too. As long as the cars look, act, and drive differently, only people "in the know" will have any knowledge of whats going on.

Thanks for confirming the G8 will be cloned too. That never surprised me, and I bet the build quality will remain the same, along with the minimal differences in options but with higher prices in the Cadillac model because it's a Cadillac.

Ask Toyota how it goes for them. They've managed to sell plenty of Camrys as ES350s, Highlanders as RX350s, 4Runners as GX470s, and Land Crusiers as LX470s. But wait, its Toyota, so nobody complains...

OMFG, they cloned 4 trucks! So sue them and their lieing butts! BUT WAIT! Look at this, every other car though is only available in Japan or here. Not both. We don't get the Aristo and the GS300. We don't get the Soarer and the SC430. And btw, the Highlander is not a RX350. We don't get the RX350 and the Harrier.

But Toyota has 3 clones here like nearly every other big name manufactuer. GM, on the other hand, does this.
Suburban=Yukon, Escalade
Avalanche=Escalade
Silverado=Sierra
Colorado=Canyon
Acadia=Equinox
Solstice=Sk
Corvette=XLR
Tahoe=Yukon, Rainier
And let me guess. The Impala is also under the Buick name and Pontiac, and that the other Buick SUVs are also descents from Chevrolet. Let's not even mention all the vans.

So let's see.

In the US Toyota has 7 cars, 2 trucks, 7 Vans/SUVs. That's 16 models correct? Lexus has 8 models. That's a total of 24 Toyota products in the US., not counting Scion. Only 3 of the 24 of are clones.

GM, on the other hand....oh screw it. 60-75% of their entire products are clones.

Therefore, I think it's pretty safe to complain that GM isn't creative when over half of what they offer is variation while Toyota offer 21 independent models here in the US if you don't clone 'em. What's GM got? 6, maybe 7 vehicles that have never been cloned? But we all know why...no one wants clones of a Hummer or Saab.

I'd agree that the differences between the G5 and the Cobalt Coupe are minimal in most cases, but I'd likely spend the extra money on the base G5 (similar to the Cobalt Coupe LT) for the sportier suspension, nicer-looking interior, and arguably a better-looking exterior (depends on model trims).

Oh ok...so I'm basically paying the same thing for 2 cars that just look different. But when I max both cars out on options, I get an $18,249 Cobalt (with the LT1 to keep similar base prices). With the G5, I come to $20,115.

BTW, did you know Pontiac offers a Cobalt SS clone? But with less performance?

The "new" GM is getting away from the way things were handled in the past, so really your only concerns are going to have to be having a Holden sold as a Pontiac, an Opel sold as a Saturn, and Chevrolet picking up a few basic structures while still making their own car. Quite honestly, does it really matter?

Yes. If I want this option and this option, I either have to pay for a car that is way over priced, buy 1 variation that only comes with 1 of the 2, or neither. GM does this purposely. They use it to force their customers to buy the bigger things for an option that could easily have been fitted with the original for just a couple thousand dollars.

Car companies have been sharing platforms, engines, transmissions, pannels, etc between cars for decades on end. By your train of thought you should have a problem with Audi "stealing" the Gallardo, Porsche "stealing" the Touareg, Acura "stealing" the CR-V, and Jaguar "stealing" the Mondeo.

Wait, do you notice anything here? Is it the fact that those companies are sharing ONE car, not 20?

The difference in the Audi R8 and Gallardo is justified in cost and what you get. Neither cars are the same price, and not even remotely very close in performance. You pay the extra $50,000, you'll get what you paid for.

And so Porsche took the Tourareg, Acura took the CR-V, and Jaguar took the Mondeo. Guess what. That's ONE car they share. nearly EVERY company does it, but they do it once or twice. Not MULTIPLE times. We don't even get a Mondeo here under Ford to my knowledge, but that's an American company and like Dodge, they'll clone cars. Thing is, GM does it with everything they own.
As for the other 2, Porsche, and Honda are not marketing the 911 or Civic under 7 different names.

GM is, and THAT'S the difference. If you can't see that, then please, remain "in the know", or as I like to call it, loyal fans who are easily suckered by what GM is obviously doing.

 

[TopHat]

You want to know why GM has so many more "clones"?


They have Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Saab, Saturn, GMC, Cadillac, Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and Hummer.


Toyota has Toyota, Lexus, Scion, Daihatsu, and Hino.

Now I'm probably gonna get "If GM has trouble with so many brands, why not just kill a few off?" Its because of how long these brands have been around on the US Market! I also realize this argument would be much better backed if Olds was still around.


EDIT: On the Zeta platform:


Yes, there is going to be alot of badge engineered versions of the car, presumably one for each major brand, they are the Chevy Impala, Pontiac G8, Buick Park Avenue, and a Vauxhall/Opel/Holden Commodore.

 

[YSSMAN]

Hmm, at least they're trying with Scion by offering a wide range of options.

I'm sure they're trying hard when the xB (a re-badged Dihatsu) uses bits and pieces from the tC to be "cool" all while managing to get worse performance and MPG figures than my 12 year old Volkswagen. I wouldn't call that trying. Furthermore, the xD is pretty much a re-skinned Yaris, which by your issues with GM, must be just as bad as the Saab 9-3 sharing a basis with the Chevrolet Malibu.

Where's GM's brand new car never before seen? The Camaro is pretty much a revival. New body, same name though.

Why would they need to change the name? Wouldn't it be better to use a name that has more than 40 years of advertising and history behind it?

Thanks for confirming the G8 will be cloned too. That never surprised me, and I bet the build quality will remain the same, along with the minimal differences in options but with higher prices in the Cadillac model because it's a Cadillac.

I think you need to differentiate for me if you have a problem with platform sharing, or outright shape-sharing. The Commodore's closest family member will be the G8 in terms of looks, the Chevrolet will get its own Chevrolet-specific style, the Buick will be longer and look more like the Velite, and the Cadillac will only be using the basic chassis (if the rumors are true).

There isn't a damn thing wrong with platform sharing, and I would hope that you know that. Its what GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been doing for as long as I can remember, the difference now being that one chassis will be able to accomodate a wide range of vehicles to the point in which they will only need a handful to re-tool for different models: Delta II, Kappa, Alpha, Epsilon II, Sigma, Zeta, Theta, Lambada, GMT355, and GMT900.

OMFG, they cloned 4 trucks! So sue them and their lieing butts! BUT WAIT! Look at this, every other car though is only available in Japan or here. Not both. We don't get the Aristo and the GS300. We don't get the Soarer and the SC430. And btw, the Highlander is not a RX350. We don't get the RX350 and the Harrier.

You realize they are the same cars but with different names, correct? Toyota didn't want to use the Lexus name in Japan for God knows what reason, and only recently I believe began to use it in some parts of the world.

...And yes, the Toyota Highlander is the same damn thing underneath as the RX350. Both vehicles are based on the Camry chassis, use the same Camry engines and transmissions, but you just get a Lexus-ized body with the RX. Its the same story with every other one of those models, the ES being the biggest offender out there.

But Toyota has 3 clones here like nearly every other big name manufactuer. GM, on the other hand, does this.
Suburban=Yukon, Escalade
Avalanche=Escalade
Silverado=Sierra
Colorado=Canyon
Acadia=Equinox
Solstice=Sk
Corvette=XLR
Tahoe=Yukon, Rainier
And let me guess. The Impala is also under the Buick name and Pontiac, and that the other Buick SUVs are also descents from Chevrolet. Let's not even mention all the vans.

Would you like the full list of what GM has that is shared (In North America, '08 model year)?

T240: Chevrolet Aveo
Delta: Chevrolet Cobalt, Chevrolet HHR, Pontiac G5

Related, Not the same: Saturn Astra​

Kappa: Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky
Epsilon: Saab 9-3, Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn Aura (larger), Pontiac G6 (larger)
Sigma: Cadillac CTS, Cadillac STS (longer), Cadillac SRX (longer and stronger)
W-Body: Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick LaCrosse
Zeta: Pontiac G8
L-Body: Buick Lucerne, Cadillac DTS (uses larger version)
Y-Body: Chevrolet Corvette, Cadillac XLR
Theta: Chevrolet Equinox, Saturn VUE (world chassis)
Lambada: Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave
GMT355: Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon, HUMMER H3
GMT360: Chevrolet Trailblazer
GMT800: HUMMER H2
GMT900: Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, Cadillac Escalade, Chevrolet Suburban (long), GMC Yukon XL (long), Cadillac Escalade ESV (long), Chevrolet Avalanche (long), Cadillac Escalade EXT (long)

...Thats platform sharing alone, most of those share engines and transmissions (not to mention cross-platforms), and most have common switchgear (just like every other manufacturer). Pannel for pannel, none of those cars share anything, all have their own distinct style and chassis tune, and in many cases the interiors are night/day different (see the Equinox, on its last leg, versus the world-chassis VUE).

Blame it on the multiple companies, but that list will be shrinking shortly. Cross the W-Body cars off for 2009, same with the L-Body models, GMT360 is going "buh bye" too.

How will it look in the future (only semi-confirmed models)?

Gamma II: Chevrolet Aveo, Saturn Corsa
Delta II: Chevrolet Cobalt, Saturn Astra
Kappa II: May be crossed into Alpha
Alpha: Pontiac G5/G6, Buick Excelle, Cadillac BLS
Epsilon II: Chevrolet Malibu, Saturn Aura, Saab 9-3/9-5, Buick LaCrosse
Sigma: Cadillac CTS
Zeta: Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac G8/GTO, Buick Park Avenue (long), Cadillac Product (long, different materials), Chevrolet Camaro (short)
Y-Body: Chevrolet Corvette, XLR replacement
GMT355 (some models may be replaced by Zeta): Chevrolet Colorado, GMC Canyon (unknown future), HUMMER H3, HUMMER H4
Theta: Saturn VUE

Related, Theta Premium, Crossed with Epsilon II: Cadillac BRX, Saab 9-4X​

Lambada: Chevrolet Traverse, Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Envlave
GMT900: Chevrolet Silverado, Chevrolet Tahoe, Chevrolet Avalanche (long), Chevrolet Suburban (long), GMC Sierra, GMC Yukon, GMC Yukon XL (long), HUMMER H2 (unknown future), Cadillac Escalade, Cadillac Escalade ESV (long), Cadillac Escalade EXT (long).

Again, there will be common engines and transmissions, and some common switchgear, but every car will be unique inside and out and will offer a unique chassis tune. This does not include the world market, which will also share a large number of these platforms, sold under various marques with slight style and chassis tune differences.

Therefore, I think it's pretty safe to complain that GM isn't creative when over half of what they offer is variation while Toyota offer 21 independent models here in the US if you don't clone 'em. What's GM got? 6, maybe 7 vehicles that have never been cloned? But we all know why...no one wants clones of a Hummer or Saab.

I wouldn't call much of Toyota's lineup "independent" given that they're either based on the Yaris, Camry, 4Runner, or Tundra. Its much the same story at GM, the main difference is that they have more company lineups by which they need to fill.

...And as pointed out, HUMMER uses Chevrolet vehicles as their base, Saab's vehicles are actually the base for a wide variety of world vehicles. Saab will actually be getting Epsilon II and Theta Premium long before it will ever been seen in Germany or North America.

Oh ok...so I'm basically paying the same thing for 2 cars that just look different. But when I max both cars out on options, I get an $18,249 Cobalt (with the LT1 to keep similar base prices). With the G5, I come to $20,115... BTW, did you know Pontiac offers a Cobalt SS clone? But with less performance?

You pay for the altered suspension and the arguably better interior in the Pontiac, and I don't have a big problem with that. The Pontiac G5 GT is the same as the Cobalt Sport for 2008 (the SS name is dead with the S/C model), so whats your point...?

Yes. If I want this option and this option, I either have to pay for a car that is way over priced, buy 1 variation that only comes with 1 of the 2, or neither. GM does this purposely. They use it to force their customers to buy the bigger things for an option that could easily have been fitted with the original for just a couple thousand dollars.

Its called running a company with multiple brands beneath it. Toyota has Scion, Toyota, and Lexus. They do just as much platform and part sharing as anyone else, but obviously it isn't as bad as when you have eight brands to play with. There has always been that progressive nature to the GM lineup in which you go from a Chevrolet to a Oldsmobile, a Buick to a Cadillac, etc. Thats part of their history... I remember when Toyota was just Toyota, how much fun was that?

Wait, do you notice anything here? Is it the fact that those companies are sharing ONE car, not 20?

I just picked a few examples there, but every company shares quite a few bits and pieces, not just platforms. Volkswagen still goes nuts with the Golf chassis with all of their brands (complaints?), FIAT has been whoring out their cars to GM, Ford, etc chassis as of late. What about the cross-sharing between the Chevrolet and Pontiac duo of Europe, Peugeot and Citroen? EVERYONE does it, the bigger differences are how well they can hide it.

And so Porsche took the Tourareg, Acura took the CR-V, and Jaguar took the Mondeo. Guess what. That's ONE car they share. nearly EVERY company does it, but they do it once or twice. Not MULTIPLE times.

Please see reply above...

We don't even get a Mondeo here under Ford to my knowledge, but that's an American company and like Dodge, they'll clone cars. Thing is, GM does it with everything they own.
As for the other 2, Porsche, and Honda are not marketing the 911 or Civic under 7 different names.

We will see the Mondeo as the Mazda6, we may end up seeing the Mondeo as the Mondeo, as well as the Mondeo C-Maxx. Chrysler does plenty of sharing with Mercedes (that will stop) and Mitsubishi (that will probably stop too), so whats the point?

...Companies with greater numbers of brands to fill up are more likely to have to share chassis, its that simple. GM isn't going to do stupid things like the Equinox/Torrent anymore, and while the Zeta platform may be shared between the G8 and the Camaro, they will be radically different versions of the chassis, and obviously radically different vehicles.

GM is, and THAT'S the difference. If you can't see that, then please, remain "in the know", or as I like to call it, loyal fans who are easily suckered by what GM is obviously doing.

Suckered? I'd call it "numb" to the fact that it has been happening since, oh 1930. I guess I'm "numb" to the fact that everyone does it, no matter what part of the world they are from.

I'm all for narrowing the list of platforms and engines, but keeping the cars looking and driving differently. It reduces cost to the company, and cost to the consumer. Selling 30,000 different types of car that all do the same thing in 200 different markets like GM used to do was killing them, narrowing the list makes it easier to deal with. Thats called smart engineering, something that Toyota had done for a while, but now is getting far worse at doing.

...But, its clear once again, that we have our differences...

 

[McLaren]

I'm sure they're trying hard when the xB (a re-badged Dihatsu) uses bits and pieces from the tC to be "cool" all while managing to get worse performance and MPG figures than my 12 year old Volkswagen. I wouldn't call that trying. Furthermore, the xD is pretty much a re-skinned Yaris, which by your issues with GM, must be just as bad as the Saab 9-3 sharing a basis with the Chevrolet Malibu.

Again, at least they are trying. What has GM done that's new and creative?

Why would they need to change the name? Wouldn't it be better to use a name that has more than 40 years of advertising and history behind it?

Missed the point completely. What's GM done that's brand new?

...But, its clear once again, that we have our differences...

Half your arguement mis-understood me.

I don't f'ing care about platform sharing! The thing GM does is Clone a car, change the design, and offer no f'ing new features. God d*mmit, I've said this 3 times now.
What I'm talking about is taking a Silverado, changing the design just bits and pieces. Then, they slap a GMC badge on it, and there's nothing NEW! It has the same damn options, the same damn colors, and the only thing you pay for is something that's supposed to be "fancier". But this "fancy" stuff isn't new at all. The suspension and interior is only slightly nicer than the Silverado, and the "performance" is barely noticeable. All the crap on the GMC could have easily been offered as an option, or even standard on the Silverado. But no, GM knows it can sucker you into paying more. To make it worse, they only allow certain options on certain cars which purposely forces you to pay for the most expensive model. Other than this, you also don't get any better build quality....

That's the stupid thing GM does. I don't care about platform sharing. Do you understand the damn point, I'm trying to make? If I cared about platform sharing, I'd be pissed off at everyone....

 

[YSSMAN]

Again, at least they are trying. What has GM done that's new and creative? What's GM done that's brand new?

Depends on your definition of "creative" and "new" I would suppose, as everyone usually ends up copying everyone at some point, so normally it is left to BMW and usually Honda or Volkswagen to drive everything else. The Solstice was definitely something new for GM (not new in the marketplace), furthermore the return of a RWD sedan (not seen since 1996) for North America. Most of what GM is doing, right now, 2007-2008 is rebuilding lineups to better compete with the new competition lineups (outlined in other threads). Their new thing will likely be Alpha, the RWD chassis that takes a lot of influence from Zeta, head development being done by Opel in Germany. Its GM's first real shot at the 1-series and the 3-series, something that no American car company has as of now.

...If you are to imply that Toyota's lightweight RWD coupe is something completely "new," I can see your point, but it is more or less turning the clock back to where cars should have stayed in terms of weight and performance. Something that Toyota themselves pushed forward. GM's "new" vehicle to compete would use an already existing chassis, modifying an already existing car, and selling it under an already existing name. Sure, it isn't "new" by the definition of building it from scratch, but its "new" enough where most people won't care.

However, as mentioned earlier, the G5 going RWD is in name only, onto the Alpha chassis. Name or not, I'd call that "new."

Half your arguement mis-understood me.

I don't f'ing care about platform sharing! The thing GM does is Clone a car, change the design, and offer no f'ing new features. God d*mmit, I've said this 3 times now... That's the stupid thing GM does. I don't care about platform sharing. Do you understand the damn point, I'm trying to make? If I cared about platform sharing, I'd be pissed off at everyone....

It is pretty clear that we did have a misunderstanding then, and it is why I asked early on in my post.

Direct re-badges as you discussed with the Silverado and Sierra are a problem, but from where I stand, its nothing that I haven't lived with before (hell, that my Grandfather has lived with before). By most assessments, the Sierra is a better truck, and often worth the extra $1000 or so per model. But, that depends on who you ask and what kind of experiences you've had. I know they are pretty much the same, thusly I'd more frequently choose the Chevrolet (hell, its why I choose the Chevrolet most frequently with any model).

The GM fanbase, by which I openly admit that I am a part of, has criticized them for this numerous times, and they continually assure us that they're "on it" for future vehicles. The G5 will likely be the last of the plainly obvious shares without merit, as the lineups begin to branch apart and merge with European, Asian, Australian, Middle-Eastern, and South American lineups.

So, to clarify, direct model clones are ending at GM. They have promised that there will be pretty big differences between the exterior and interior pieces of every model from here on (well, common switchgear and other bits will show up). Yes, the majority of Saturn products will be direct "rip-offs" of Opels and Vauxhalls, but that was because Saturn was rolled into the two product lines. Pontiac is now unofficially a part of Holden, so they too will carry Pontiac-badged Holdens (only the RWD cars I'm hearing). Buick North America will merge with Buick China, making it more luxurious, and will eventually minimize the lineup to four vehicles (Excelle, LaCrosse, Park Avenue, Enclave). Saab will be Saab. HUMMER will be HUMMER. Cadillac will be Cadillac.

I assume the biggest problems will still lie with GMC using Chevrolets, but thats something that has always happened, so I don't usually count it. They're the "heavier-duty, more-luxurious" versions of the Chevy trucks, but if rumors are true, GMC may only be left with three models (Acadia, Sierra, Yukon) by 2009.

Chevrolet, I assume, must be the worst offender. Blame it on the "everyman car company" image, in which they must be able to please everyone (its part of the reason why they are being positioned against Toyota). That means that their vehicles are either exclusive (Corvette and Camaro) or they get something to share (G8, 9-3, etc).

The big question comes down, I guess, not just to cloning, but product identities. GM is attempting to reconnect to the past in which there was a pretty big difference between a Chevelle, GTO, Cutlass, and GS which were all the same car. In 2008, thats going to mean drastically different exteriors (see the Saturn Aura versus the '08 Malibu), differing interiors (Buick Lucerne versus Cadillac DTS), and different driving experiences (Chevrolet Impala SS versus Pontiac Grand Prix GXP versus Buick LaCrosse Super).

Those differences add up to being able to realize if the extra $1000 between a Chevy and a Pontiac are worth it, and in some cases they've done the job to make the differences known (GP GXP versus Impala SS).

I better understand your point, and thusly I sympathize with your cause a bit more. Being someone who understands GM at a level I do, I look more to whats happening 2008, 2009, 2010 on up for the changes, and you're more focused on whats happening 2007 and 2008. Personally, I begin to fear more for Chrysler and Ford on occasion, who don't tend to do a good job at all when it comes to hiding the differences between a Ford and a Mercury, between a Dodge and a Chrysler.

Its the incremental differences between GM's brands that cause problems, I think. It isn't like how it is at say Honda, where the difference between a CR-V and a RDX has to be substantial for someone to buy it. Thats why the GM products have to sit on a scale.

Cadillac -- Saab -- Buick -- Saturn -- Pontiac -- Chevrolet

 

[McLaren]

Depends on your definition of "creative" and "new" I would suppose, as everyone usually ends up copying everyone at some point, so normally it is left to BMW and usually Honda or Volkswagen to drive everything else. The Solstice was definitely something new for GM (not new in the marketplace), furthermore the return of a RWD sedan (not seen since 1996) for North America. Most of what GM is doing, right now, 2007-2008 is rebuilding lineups to better compete with the new competition lineups (outlined in other threads). Their new thing will likely be Alpha, the RWD chassis that takes a lot of influence from Zeta, head development being done by Opel in Germany. Its GM's first real shot at the 1-series and the 3-series, something that no American car company has as of now.

I totally understand the Solstice is new (or at least the coupe is; the roadster's been out for a while, now). But I also agree with the BMW, Honda, and VW statement.

...If you are to imply that Toyota's lightweight RWD coupe is something completely "new," I can see your point, but it is more or less turning the clock back to where cars should have stayed in terms of weight and performance. Something that Toyota themselves pushed forward. GM's "new" vehicle to compete would use an already existing chassis, modifying an already existing car, and selling it under an already existing name. Sure, it isn't "new" by the definition of building it from scratch, but its "new" enough where most people won't care.

Might be because some folks aren't willing to compare the similarities, and think, "Huh, is it really worth that extra thousand?" It's just not new new, or right to put out ads that give the impression that it's something we've never done, and you should def. look at it.

It is pretty clear that we did have a misunderstanding then, and it is why I asked early on in my post.

Direct re-badges as you discussed with the Silverado and Sierra are a problem, but from where I stand, its nothing that I haven't lived with before (hell, that my Grandfather has lived with before). By most assessments, the Sierra is a better truck, and often worth the extra $1000 or so per model. But, that depends on who you ask and what kind of experiences you've had. I know they are pretty much the same, thusly I'd more frequently choose the Chevrolet (hell, its why I choose the Chevrolet most frequently with any model).

I'm not doubting the Sierra is a better truck, but it's just very wrong to put options on it that GM could have put on the Silverado instead of making me buy the bigger truck just to have something exclusive to the GMC. And it's not just the GMCs. I see direct re-badges in almost every GM product, and all of them feature that same sell tactic. This option only comes on this model, but if you want it and the other option, we suggest the biggest model....

The GM fanbase, by which I openly admit that I am a part of, has criticized them for this numerous times, and they continually assure us that they're "on it" for future vehicles. The G5 will likely be the last of the plainly obvious shares without merit, as the lineups begin to branch apart and merge with European, Asian, Australian, Middle-Eastern, and South American lineups.

So, to clarify, direct model clones are ending at GM. They have promised that there will be pretty big differences between the exterior and interior pieces of every model from here on (well, common switchgear and other bits will show up). Yes, the majority of Saturn products will be direct "rip-offs" of Opels and Vauxhalls, but that was because Saturn was rolled into the two product lines. Pontiac is now unofficially a part of Holden, so they too will carry Pontiac-badged Holdens (only the RWD cars I'm hearing). Buick North America will merge with Buick China, making it more luxurious, and will eventually minimize the lineup to four vehicles (Excelle, LaCrosse, Park Avenue, Enclave). Saab will be Saab. HUMMER will be HUMMER. Cadillac will be Cadillac.

See, that's something I prefer to hear. But when will it happen? They'll have to do more than make the RWD exclusive to the G5 soon.

I assume the biggest problems will still lie with GMC using Chevrolets, but thats something that has always happened, so I don't usually count it. They're the "heavier-duty, more-luxurious" versions of the Chevy trucks, but if rumors are true, GMC may only be left with three models (Acadia, Sierra, Yukon) by 2009.

Which would be natural. They're GMCs most popular vehicles not counting the heavy duty trucks they make for businesses.

But what about the others as you said should be happening? Am I going to continue to see the Avalanche and Suburbans as over priced Escalades with minimal differences in option appearences, or will the Escalades actually have options that well justify their bigger prices. I'm not trying to appear sarcastic here. I'm actually wondering if I'll see these exclusive options that are really worth my paycheck for the bigger car/truck.

The big question comes down, I guess, not just to cloning, but product identities. GM is attempting to reconnect to the past in which there was a pretty big difference between a Chevelle, GTO, Cutlass, and GS which were all the same car. In 2008, thats going to mean drastically different exteriors (see the Saturn Aura versus the '08 Malibu), differing interiors (Buick Lucerne versus Cadillac DTS), and different driving experiences (Chevrolet Impala SS versus Pontiac Grand Prix GXP versus Buick LaCrosse Super).

I'll have no big problems if they make every car look completely different. But I still want to be sure I get my just cost in options. I don't want to be forced to pick between small, re-packaged options. I want something that will be exclusive to the model, something the other 2 can not have in any form, something will make my $5,000 more check worth it.

Those differences add up to being able to realize if the extra $1000 between a Chevy and a Pontiac are worth it, and in some cases they've done the job to make the differences known (GP GXP versus Impala SS).

Which is something I want to see them do more of. It makes their cars, imo, become more independent from each other.

I better understand your point, and thusly I sympathize with your cause a bit more. Being someone who understands GM at a level I do, I look more to whats happening 2008, 2009, 2010 on up for the changes, and you're more focused on whats happening 2007 and 2008. Personally, I begin to fear more for Chrysler and Ford on occasion, who don't tend to do a good job at all when it comes to hiding the differences between a Ford and a Mercury, between a Dodge and a Chrysler.

See, I did not know GM was actually trying to change the problem I'm talking about. It's not just 2007 and 2008, it's been this way for years. If GM is willing to throw direct re-badges in the trash and make 60% of their products cars with an identity, and not something I can call the Pontiac Cobalt, I'm ALL for that.

I will also end with an apology for the excessive cursing. That was immature and over-dramatic on my part.

 

[Kent]

I will also end with an apology for the excessive cursing. That was immature and over-dramatic on my part.

Right or wrong in debate, an apology and fine manners set you apart from many in discussions such as these.
Credit to you.
Rep would follow but more of the same must be spread before I may do so. None the less, I will remember this much as I do all the replies I read.

 

[YSSMAN]

But what about the others as you said should be happening? Am I going to continue to see the Avalanche and Suburbans as over priced Escalades with minimal differences in option appearences, or will the Escalades actually have options that well justify their bigger prices. I'm not trying to appear sarcastic here. I'm actually wondering if I'll see these exclusive options that are really worth my paycheck for the bigger car/truck.

I'm not sure. I think the current argument that they would use would be that the Escalade gets the L92 V8 (403 BHP) and the six-speed 6L80E automatic over the Avalanche, which at best can be optioned with the L76 (355 BHP) and the four-speed 4L80E automatic. Then there is the Cadillac interior versus that of the Chevy, not a *huge* leap forward, but there is certainly a bit of difference in quality.

I personally would just go for the Chevrolet in that situation, but thats more or less because by the end the performance of the two vehicles are essentially the same. Plus, I would be more comfortable tearing up an Avalanche Z71 by comparison to a Escalade EXT, which at best, would only be as capable as a Z66 Avalanche.

 

[Tornado]

Again, at least they are trying. What has GM done that's new and creative?

I'm going to butt in here for a second, but what Toyota has done with Scion (other than the tC) is hardly new or creative. Scion is arguably the same idea as a captive import, only performed by a foreign company.
And in any case, the GM of today is quite removed from the GM of the bad old days:

Compared to then GM is doing way better now.
And besides, it is so prevalent at GM because GM has so many American companies. Ford only has Mercury, Lincoln and Ford (where lots of badge engineering also occurs) and Chrysler only has Dodge and Chrysler.

 

[Leonidae]

and how does this relate to possibly incoming Toyota RWD coupe?

yes, fellows.. you're quite a bit on the OT side.