Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[Rinsky]

I do agree that they should be tightened up in some places (Dragon Trail's back chicane irks me a bit, as well as Nurb GP's turn 2), but they are as PD intended.

That DragonTrail's chicane is a great example because it's setup in such a way that you almost have no choice but to put the whole car up on the curb.
Once you have worked your way up to a DR B or higher it's a must do thing.
If you dare scrub off enough speed to keep two tires on the curb and the other two on the pavement the car behind you is going to plow into you. This causes a chain reaction and can create quite a mess.
If your someone who cares about your DR/SR then riding those curbs becomes a must to avoid causing some carnage.

 

[dylan86_exe]

Morals vs game rules. Ugh, I love (sarcasm) when these come up.

It's just a game, god. What the game defines as legal is legal. It can be duplicated by anyone who has taken the time to study other drivers and their laps.

I do agree that they should be tightened up in some places (Dragon Trail's back chicane irks me a bit, as well as Nurb GP's turn 2), but they are as PD intended.

I'm not taking any sides in this debate - @zzz_pt earned his spot on the leaderboards with excellent pace along with pushing the very limits of what the game defines legal...That's kind of the point of a skill-based system, isn't it? You use all available resources to push yourself as hard as you can. And if you don't use them, you're kind of a scrub.

I know because I still have a habit of getting really uncomfortable with pushing past the curbs on some corners (Maggiore's limits are intimidating and I don't have the pace or car mastery to even try in the first place), but this is because I used to be really stubborn about staying in the lines.

Also @dylan86_exe you should be ashamed of yourself for coming into this thread and using your first post in-thread to abuse another member. PT has the pace to run circles around anyone else and has the know-how to take full advantage of the (generous) limits on the tracks in GTS.

And if I may be honest, pushing the limit of the rules for advantages was something my team did during Harsk100's first two seasons of GRC on GT6. We discovered that certain little tricks - lowering tire grades, certain ride height weirdness and the like - helped us push our cars further and harder. Ultimately, all of these are just tools for the driver.

A bit disjointed and ranty, but I hope this offers some insight from a slower driver trying their best.

Why is everyone bringing up my 35 post count as some kind of important point they feel they need to make. You think this is the only account in the history of GT I've made and I don't have the audacity to post a comment? This isn't my first rodeo.

And no - I'm not ashamed at all. Someone started a thread about a person using this kind of "tool" as you put it - to their advantage. I simply called them out on it being a joke that they're blatantly being praised for abusing it. I'm sure he's skillful when he drives like a any other respectable driver, but in this case - where there's video evidence, I'm calling him out for not being skillful and gaining an advantage based on a technicality. I mean, where do you draw the line...
And it is an advantage because I bet you 95% of the people playing this game that don't frequent this forum would even know about it.
So he's gaining 4 seconds on someone who's doing their best, driving within the limits of any realistic racing scenario.... and not the games shortcoming by driving 4 feet away from the track. You can use whatever resource you want.. just don't go crying when somebody uses one that you don't agree with. You're gonna be a victim of you're own crime.

I don't feel bad about it and I'd do it again if the chance came. The difference being, now I know where the people in this thread stand on winning/gaining an advantage over a technicality compared to racing hard and properly against someone. Is it really too much to ask of someone to actually drive on the track, is it?

 

[Tristan Jones]

For the last time, track limits are as intended. So it's not an offence. So it's not an exploit.

Any other 'reality' is only in your head.

Goodnight.

My opinion too.

Morals vs game rules. Ugh, I love (sarcasm) when these come up.

It's just a game, god. What the game defines as legal is legal. It can be duplicated by anyone who has taken the time to study other drivers and their laps.

I can't believe I got drawn in to this issue on another thread (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/wall-riding-in-todays-daily-races.373247/page-2) - maybe we just think it needs explaining better?

I recently read Playing to win - http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

They talk of a "scrub" mentality - since read that description, I see it everywhere!

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Could this thread contain examples of what I read?! (not above posts of course)

 

[EERIEISSSS]

Literally everyone I race with, including myself, abuse the track limits at Nurburgring GP coming out of the Mercedes-Arena as it is 'the line'.

 

[Rinsky]

Literally everyone I race with, including myself, abuse the track limits at Nurburgring GP coming out of the Mercedes-Arena as it is 'the line'.

If GTP was the entire GTS community then stuff like this might matter. But for every person who doesn't like the way someone is playing the game there are a 100 more people in the game playing it the exact opposite.

Another good example is the amount of people here on GTP who frown upon people who use driving assist but save a replay from sport mode and maybe only 2 people out of 16 in the race are not using assist.

You have to just go with the flow of the race if you want to be competitive.
So if everyone is pushing the track boundaries maybe you should too.
If everyone is using assist then follow along if that's what it takes to keep up.

It's all about having fun and stressing out over stuff you have no control over is pointless.

 

[Scaff]

Without going back through pages of comments, you're taking things out of context. And I'm getting tired of having to correct you.
So I'll repeat what I said before. You CAN NOT exploit the implemented penalty system and tell me (or the community for that matter) that one offence is ok and then disregard another, regardless of what they're exploiting. Exploiting is exploiting. And there's no question about it that this would be an offence in any real world scenario.

You don't get to speak for the community, particularly not one you have been a member of for less than a month.

Nor do you get to ignore the AUP you agreed to less than a month ago, so stop with the personal attacks and digs.

Now if you have had past accounts here you should already know that the manner in which you are posting in not acceptable, leaving even less excuse. You should also know that having more than one account is against the AUP, and that returning banned members (if that is the case) are also subject to an immediate ban. As such you have quite a bit to explain, as right now I see little reason to keep your account active. The explanation will be to a member of staff and via PM, it will also be the next post you make.

Play the ball and not the man if you wish that membership to continue.

This is not up for public debate or discussion.

 

[nutcracker33]

Sorry I didnt read all of 18 pages, but towards the end, I feel that people thinks the fast guys will just fall off the leaderboard, and you will move up.

TBH, they will still be seconds ahead of you, with or without "abusing" game mechanics.

There are plenty of other things to learn from these videos to get yourself better and be more competitive.

 

[Imari]

And they're all subjective opinions.

And yours is wrong.

Just how arrogant are you?!

Pot, I'd like you to meet Kettle. I think you two will get on great together, you have so much in common.

You CAN NOT exploit the implemented penalty system and tell me (or the community for that matter) that one offence is ok and then disregard another, regardless of what they're exploiting.

Except that using all the space that you're allowed to is not exploiting. Just because the virtual ground is black or brown or green or paisley doesn't make any difference. The penalty system rules on what is legal to drive on.

Why is everyone bringing up my 35 post count as some kind of important point they feel they need to make. You think this is the only account in the history of GT I've made and I don't have the audacity to post a comment? This isn't my first rodeo.

Cool. That makes more sense. Generally new people make a few posts before they start attacking people in a forum they wish to take part in. Given that you had other accounts I can only imagine they got banned. I can't for the life of me think of why. You seem so calm and friendly.

 

[shaunus]

Just a quick closing note on Maggiore.. it is not at all arbitrary, after a few test runs paying attention it is clear what the types of concrete surface are being interpreted as what by the rules, i.e. which are considered usable track and which are not. Read what the track designer is telling you.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

COmparing the pit bug..


If the lap is going to be invalidated, why have time penalties at all? Seems you are looking for the time penalty system to be replaced with a lap cancellation system? If so it isn't really on topic in this conversation.

IMO it's on topic because it regards track limits.

Well I believe it should cancel the lap, but I wanted to know if other people felt similarly.

 

[Woodybobs]

@Sven Jurgens In my experience, compared to other racing games I've played (admittedly very few), the SR system is not half bad. I'm sure there are many improvements PD would like to make to improve it. Some of these are, no doubt, unachievable at the moment, but I suspect every racing dev is ultimately aiming to create an algorithm that equals or betters the current real life steward system. However, there are too many variables that contribute to the failings of the SR system to compare it to the track limit settings. They are most likely set exactly where PD wanted them. They may (hopefully will) change, but it'll only happen if PD deem it to be advantageous to the game. I think generous track limits may well be enabling more, and cleaner, overtakes in races. They mayn't be realistic, but the game is more appealing to people who don't play Sims (I've only got anecdotal evidence for this statement) than any other. The real driving simulator it's not, but who's listening to catchphrases anyway.

 

[FUNanywhere]

There's nothing to get.
He's aware of an exploitation and taking advantage of it. There's nothing wrong with it (technically), it's just not respected.
May as well exploit the pit bug while you're at it. It's PDs fault after all..

This. Its not recommended and not advised at all.

As for the lap i posted in OP, even without the Corner Elimination that guy is still much faster than others but by how much is yet to be seen.

It is just disappointing that a Top 10 is not fair and using a glitch in the game to get there. A Top 10 should be the one where others will learn their mistakes and improve seeing the absolute bests but here its teaching them to exploit the game.

 

[baldgye]

That DragonTrail's chicane is a great example because it's setup in such a way that you almost have no choice but to put the whole car up on the curb.
Once you have worked your way up to a DR B or higher it's a must do thing.
If you dare scrub off enough speed to keep two tires on the curb and the other two on the pavement the car behind you is going to plow into you. This causes a chain reaction and can create quite a mess.
If your someone who cares about your DR/SR then riding those curbs becomes a must to avoid causing some carnage.

I do remember the beta, seeing the lap times and wondering how on earth I was so slow... then did my first race there and was like... wait-but-waaaiittt....

 

[Factor41]

Does everyone not realise Motorsport is about how well you can cheat / interpret the rules? Motor racing isn't about being honest or nice. Those people don't win. It's about using every available tool to your advantage to be faster than someone else. Includes track limits, vehicles design or even managing a race.

https://jalopnik.com/how-the-best-racing-cheat-of-all-time-worked-1792828060

Here's a good read. Take note how the FIA appreciated the effort that went into this cheat.

Things like this are an ingrained part of of racing.

A good techincal read, https://jalopnik.com/suzukis-new-gsx-r1000-is-engineered-around-a-loophole-i-1751372078

I'd also recommend reading Adrian Newey's autobiography How to Build a Car. He's essentially spent his entire career through reading and re-reading the rules, not for what they say you can do, but to find what they don't say you can't do. And he's widely regarded as the greatest motorsport engineer of all time.

 

[baldgye]

I'd also recommend reading Adrian Newey's autobiography How to Build a Car. He's essentially spent his entire career through reading and re-reading the rules, not for what they say you can do, but to find what they don't say you can't do. And he's widely regarded as the greatest motorsport engineer of all time.

I think this thread has been quite illuminating for the sheer number of users who seemingly don't watch, or have any knowledge of motor-sports

 

[Tornado]

It is irelevant, you posted some old video about how slow the AI is.

Because you're claiming the AI is the example players should use for what PD want players to do in a series well known for ultraconservative AI; and GT Sport is not the first game that has had competitive elements in it and these sorts of track limits. It's not the fact that the AI is slow. It's the fact that the AI frequently doesn't even use the whole track within the lines, but that's the guidelines you're saying that players who are already much faster should limit themselves to.

Hence the questions at the end of the post.

I think this thread has been quite illuminating for the sheer number of users who seemingly don't watch, or have any knowledge of motor-sports

And certainly not Formula 1 during the Senna or Schumacher years.

 

[PJTierney]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

I love when people quote David Sirlin, that book's always been a good read on the competitive mindset.

In short:

• If something is legal, abuse the hell out of it until the rule makers change its legality.
• If an "unfun" tactic is legal and not changed after a significant amount of time, maybe that game isn't worth playing competitively.

 

[baldgye]

And certainly not Formula 1 during the Senna or Schumacher years.

Formula 1 is pretty tame and gentlemanly compared to a lot of Sports car racing

 

[Mr P]

Found some footage where they were testing the track limits at Willow Springs during the BETA..

http://98ron.superunleaded.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/giphy-107.gif

Thankfully PD had the good sense to deem the Willow Springs shortcut as unacceptable and quickly fixed it with an update! Lets hope they see sense and put the other ones to bed also

Great debate this one 👍

 

[JacksHerer]

Gran Tour Season two episode 7 was a great insight to 'pushing boundries' in the Lancia vs Audi story.

 

[rikcougar]

Track limit testing tonight then.........

 

[Obelisk]

Why is everyone bringing up my 35 post count as some kind of important point they feel they need to make.

Was not referring to your double digit post count. I was referring to your very first post inside this thread.

And it is an advantage because I bet you 95% of the people playing this game that don't frequent this forum would even know about it.

Have you even played Sport Mode? I guarantee you that once you hit B/B rating, you'll see that everyone's doing the same thing and pushing the limits as far as they can. At that point, go with the flow or get left in the dust. It's that simple.

 

[zzz_pt]

^ Or simply watch top10 replays. There's no excuse.

 

[JacksHerer]

I didn't manage to find the top ten replays by myself, it would be better if the replay buttons were accessible when you viewed the leaderboard after race entry/qualify entry, instead of only being visible before entry.

 

[LordDrift]

No. There isn't.

But there really is. It shouldn't even be in the same discussion.

 

[Skiddy]

Because you're claiming the AI is the example players should use for what PD want players to do in a series well known for ultraconservative AI; and GT Sport is not the first game that has had competitive elements in it and these sorts of track limits. It's not the fact that the AI is slow. It's the fact that the AI frequently doesn't even use the whole track within the lines, but that's the guidelines you're saying that players who are already much faster should limit themselves to.

If you take a look at the way AI drives at Maggiore you would notice that they never cut corners like that. They do use a lot of the track, they ride the curbs, they go off track etc. The AI knows where the boundaries are, that is, where the PD has put them. I tried to push the AI car to the make it cut the corner, but it wouldn't do it, it rather braked and steered away, than cut the corner.
Sorry you cannot comprehend the implications of that, concerning the track limits.

 

[zzz_pt]

If you take a look at the way AI drives at Maggiore you would notice that they never cut corners like that. They do use a lot of the track, they ride the curbs, they go off track etc. The AI knows where the boundaries are, that is, where the PD has put them. I tried to push the AI car to the make it cut the corner, but it wouldn't do it, it rather braked and steered away, than cut the corner.
Sorry you cannot comprehend the implications of that, concerning the track limits.

Good luck trying to make the AI do anything exemplary. Not only lines but braking points, apexes and acceleration points.

Tell us how it went.

 

[baldgye]

If you take a look at the way AI drives at Maggiore you would notice that they never cut corners like that. They do use a lot of the track, they ride the curbs, they go off track etc. The AI knows where the boundaries are, that is, where the PD has put them. I tried to push the AI car to the make it cut the corner, but it wouldn't do it, it rather braked and steered away, than cut the corner.
Sorry you cannot comprehend the implications of that, concerning the track limits.

I can, it has zero implications on anything.

 

[Obelisk]

Using the AI as a reference point is like using a dog as a reference point for predicting how a person thinks or behaves.

The AI only does what it is programmed to do. In this case, the AI's limits are lower than a human's limits and far more restrained. If the AI drove like the top 10 drivers, no one would win any races in Career.

 

[Mr616]

If you take a look at the way AI drives at Maggiore you would notice that they never cut corners like that. They do use a lot of the track, they ride the curbs, they go off track etc. The AI knows where the boundaries are, that is, where the PD has put them. I tried to push the AI car to the make it cut the corner, but it wouldn't do it, it rather braked and steered away, than cut the corner.
Sorry you cannot comprehend the implications of that, concerning the track limits.

You're using AI to try to prove your point? Seriously? And you only use AI for track limits but not driving line, braking or acceleration points? Surely you cannot use it for one and not the other. Why would you not use the AI for driving line and braking points? Would that be because they are slow and uncompetitive?